UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

[HMS Vanguard]

Even if I opposed Brexit, on practical or moral grounds, a part of me would still be proud that Britain is capable of it. We have always been history's troublemakers. We still are. Little peoples are merely agreeable.

Causing trouble is not a good thing in any way.

It's the only way progress is ever made.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

I am going to guess you have never met a Russian, much less spoken to one about politics. I have only met one educated Russian - and I have met a lot - who does not support Putin. The people who in the West would be least likely to support Putin. The Russian elections, while not completely free, are fixed in the sense that turbo-Putins are not permitted to come along and out-Putin Putin. They accurately reflect support for Putin compared to more Western-type policies.

So the devil you know argument?
Unfortunately the Russian government seem to be very intent on expanding their country and bullying their neighbours as of late.
Lets not forget the
brainwashing of the Russian population
ousting of any news source that dares speak out against Russian government
blaming America for everything

So the current Putin may very well end up becoming turbo putin anyways.

I really dislike Putin, and his government is a super corrupt and overly authoritarian. However, there is a big reason Russians vote for Putin (other than propaganda), and it's (the perception of) their own economic security & safety. Russia went through extremely turbulent times in the 90s, culminating in hyperinflation, which Yeltsin failed to deal with. But under Putin, the economy recovered, and they had over a decade of relative economic stability. The situation was far more preferable to the turbulent nineties with more western friendly leaders, or the brutal suppression of the soviet regime. After a century of strife, you want to hold on to any stability you get, it's understandable. Russia is now facing another crisis with the ruble - I'm not surprised that this would increase support for Putin as they're the only one they know has dealt with a crisis like this successfully before.

Or maybe Putin just wants to get his war economy rolling, throw a few thousand Russians into some pointless meatgrinder on some far off rock.
I mean currently Russian nationality is almost like a mirror of the British one a hundred years ago. Or any Western power a hundred years ago.

"Can't wait to give johnny foreigner a good kicking in the name of our king and country. what what"

I really dislike Putin, and his government is a super corrupt and overly authoritarian.
However, there is a big reason Russians vote for Putin (other than propaganda), and it's (the perception of) their own economic security & safety. Russia went through extremely turbulent times in the 90s, culminating in hyperinflation, which Yeltsin failed to deal with. But under Putin, the economy recovered, and they had over a decade of relative economic stability. The situation was far more preferable to the turbulent nineties with more western friendly leaders, or the brutal suppression of the soviet regime. After a century of strife, you want to hold on to any stability you get, it's understandable. Russia is now facing another crisis with the ruble - I'm not surprised that this would increase support for Putin as they're the only one they know has dealt with a crisis like this successfully before.

They also genuinely believe that Crimea is their territory, and think their war effort in Ukraine is just (this is where different ideological outlook comes in).

And I believe that I should drink tea for free but you don't see me going around supermarkets pick pocketing tea bags and loudly proclaiming
"I was going to drink it anyways I'll just call it mine and be done with the whole exchange of money nonsense".

Come on, the Crimean war was purely based on some paranoid fantasy of some military general who probably told Putin
"Actually if America uses the Crimea as a base of operations they can flank our mass of soldiers who are all facing Europe. can't leave the flank exposed".

Actually no, maybe it wasn't a general it was probably Putins own idea. His experience in the KGB probably propels his own paranoia to stupid high levels.
he probably believes his own propaganda about America being the source of all problems in Russia.

It's no secret the KGB were overwhelmed by their own intelligence reports in the cold war. With no one actually interpreting the data they just assumed everything reported was real and forced their agents to gather more and more and more data regardless of how reliable the information was.

Every imagined threat becomes real because the Russian aggression forces the rest of the world to build up their own military alliances and forces.

They just need to chill the hell out. No one wants a war, no one in the West even cares about Russia anymore.

Putin should accept he is responsible for his own economic problems and put money into building infrastructure and helping his own civilians. And how about not doing stupid shit with diplomats eh? You don't even need to spend money to be nice to them.

Causing trouble is not a good thing in any way.

It's the only way progress is ever made.

Maybe a few hundred years ago you would be right. But not now.

[Vassenor]

Didn't know you wanted to commit suicide, Tories. Best of luck with May, you're going to need it when a general happens before Halloween.

Pretty sure the General would still be in May like it always is.

[HMS Vanguard]

I am going to guess you have never met a Russian, much less spoken to one about politics. I have only met one educated Russian - and I have met a lot - who does not support Putin. The people who in the West would be least likely to support Putin. The Russian elections, while not completely free, are fixed in the sense that turbo-Putins are not permitted to come along and out-Putin Putin. They accurately reflect support for Putin compared to more Western-type policies.

So the devil you know argument?
Unfortunately the Russian government seem to be very intent on expanding their country and bullying their neighbours as of late.
Lets not forget the
brainwashing of the Russian population
ousting of any news source that dares speak out against Russian government
blaming America for everything

So the current Putin may very well end up becoming turbo putin anyways.

Putin isn't the devil you know, he's way better than the devil you knew. He is the avenging sword of justice compared to what came before.

Russians are no more brainwashed than we are. Which is not to say that they aren't at all brainwashed.

They also genuinely believe that Crimea is their territory, and think their war effort in Ukraine is just (this is where different ideological outlook comes in).

And I believe that I should drink tea for free but you don't see me going around supermarkets pick pocketing tea bags and loudly proclaiming
"I was going to drink it anyways I'll just call it mine and be done with the whole exchange of money nonsense".

Yeah but maybe you've said something like "Free Palestine".

And even if you haven't, you've probably heard it and not batted an eyelid.

What Putin is doing is not different.

I do not agree with Putin on this point, btw.

Come on, the Crimean war was purely based on some paranoid fantasy of some military general who probably told Putin
"Actually if America uses the Crimea as a base of operations they can flank our mass of soldiers who are all facing Europe. can't leave the flank exposed".

Actually the invasion of Crimea happened mainly because Crimea is historically Russian, only ended up in Ukraine by accident, is mostly populated by Russians, and is an important Russian military base. It wasn't a highly unreasonable thing to do. I don't agree, as I said, but your description of their motives is much more ridiculous than their actual motives.

It's the only way progress is ever made.

Maybe a few hundred years ago you would be right. But not now.

A few hundred years ago we made progress.

[Souseiseki]

https://twitter.com/thespaff/status/752 ... wsrc%5Etfw

the fucking entirety of british politics was building up to this moment

[San Lumen]

https://twitter.com/thespaff/status/752577538967298049?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

the fucking entirety of british politics was building up to this moment

where is that song from?

[Souseiseki]

https://twitter.com/thespaff/status/752577538967298049?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

the fucking entirety of british politics was building up to this moment

where is that song from?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM

[Souseiseki]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2c615 ... d=26394943

Towns that voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU are among the first victims of post-Brexit manufacturing job losses.

'Last week Forterra, one of Britain’s biggest brick makers, said it would mothball plants in Accrington and Claughton, both in Lancashire, ahead of a potential downturn in construction. The towns are in boroughs that voted 66% and 63%, respectively, for Brexit.

'Lush Cosmetics, a maker of soaps and lotions, has offered to shift workers from its factory in Poole after the Dorset town voted 58% to leave the EU.

'Co-founder Mark Constantine said last week that the poll had shown many of Lush’s 1,400 workers, who come from 38 countries, that they were “not welcome and not wanted in Poole”.

'The company imports ingredients from around the world and exports many of its products. It said sterling’s fall and customer unrest since the referendum had created a “living nightmare”.

'Staff have been given the option to fill vacancies at a new factory it will open in Dusseldorf. Forterra blamed its decision to temporarily shut its plants on “current economic uncertainty”.

'Stephen Rawlinson, an analysist at Whitman Howard, said, "There is some irony in that the plants to be mothballed are in the parts of Lancashire that voted 'leave',"

'The brick factory closures could put more than 60 people out of work.'

price_is_right_losing_horn.mp3

[Vassenor]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2c615014-4603-11e6-b7de-f5b82de13b9e?CMP=Spklr-_-Editorial-_-FBPAGE-_-TheTimesandTheSundayTimes-timesandsundaytimes-_-20160710-_-News-_-513207965&linkId=26394943

Towns that voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU are among the first victims of post-Brexit manufacturing job losses.

'Last week Forterra, one of Britain’s biggest brick makers, said it would mothball plants in Accrington and Claughton, both in Lancashire, ahead of a potential downturn in construction. The towns are in boroughs that voted 66% and 63%, respectively, for Brexit.

'Lush Cosmetics, a maker of soaps and lotions, has offered to shift workers from its factory in Poole after the Dorset town voted 58% to leave the EU.

'Co-founder Mark Constantine said last week that the poll had shown many of Lush’s 1,400 workers, who come from 38 countries, that they were “not welcome and not wanted in Poole”.

'The company imports ingredients from around the world and exports many of its products. It said sterling’s fall and customer unrest since the referendum had created a “living nightmare”.

'Staff have been given the option to fill vacancies at a new factory it will open in Dusseldorf. Forterra blamed its decision to temporarily shut its plants on “current economic uncertainty”.

'Stephen Rawlinson, an analysist at Whitman Howard, said, "There is some irony in that the plants to be mothballed are in the parts of Lancashire that voted 'leave',"

'The brick factory closures could put more than 60 people out of work.'

price_is_right_losing_horn.mp3

It's all just a correction.

[Geilinor]

It's all just a correction.

Or, as San Lumen would say, "Why can't they just accept the result???"

[Risottia]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

[Vassenor]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

It does seem pretty bollocks, yes.

[Risottia]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

It does seem pretty bollocks, yes.

By the way, I'll be in London in a couple of weeks from now. It would be wise for a EUian to crack political jokes about the Brexit, or should I just stick to weather as main argument?

[Baltenstein]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

British liberty has been restored.

'Staff have been given the option to fill vacancies at a new factory it will open in Dusseldorf. Forterra blamed its decision to temporarily shut its plants on “current economic uncertainty”.

Wait, wait, wait...they are offering the very people who voted in favor of Brexit a job in a EU country?

[Ifreann]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

We are beyond irony now. This is cobalty.

---

It does seem pretty bollocks, yes.

By the way, I'll be in London in a couple of weeks from now. It would be wise for a EUian to crack political jokes about the Brexit, or should I just stick to weather as main argument?

Crack jokes, and if anyone objects, tell them it's just banter.

[Herskerstad]

So Theresa May beat her competitor and will now head the Tory ship.

Is it just me or am I getting Thatcher 2,0 vibes? I got my popcorn ready that's to be sure.

[Souseiseki]

So Theresa May beat her competitor and will now head the Tory ship.

Is it just me or am I getting Thatcher 2,0 vibes? I got my popcorn ready that's to be sure.

everyone since thatcher except brown has wanted to be thathcer 2.0

[Vassenor]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

British liberty has been restored.

'Staff have been given the option to fill vacancies at a new factory it will open in Dusseldorf. Forterra blamed its decision to temporarily shut its plants on “current economic uncertainty”.

Wait, wait, wait...they are offering the very people who voted in favor of Brexit a job in a EU country?

More the EU nationals likely to be displaced.

[Baltenstein]

I thought Leadsom was supposed to be Thatcher 2.0. May seems hore Hillar-ish.

[HMS Vanguard]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

As opposed to the zero times in history when we have directly elected a PM?

[Risottia]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

As opposed to the zero times in history when we have directly elected a PM?

Yep, but that was MY answer to those claiming that Britain needed to leave because "unelected EU commission OMG!". That's why I'm having quite a laugh.

[Great Nepal]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

As opposed to the zero times in history when we have directly elected a PM?

You mean to suggest British PM is as elected as EU commissioners are!? Blasphemy; we all know Great Britain is epitome of democracy and commissioners are unaccountable.

[Vassenor]

Doesn't anybody else find INCREDIBLY ironic that Britain, having left the EU over slogans against the "evil unelected undemocratic EU commission", is getting a new PM not through an election, not even through a public debate at a party meeting, but just by a "hey I'm leaving" "I want No.10, no wait actually not" "Ok then this leaves me" process?

As opposed to the zero times in history when we have directly elected a PM?

The irony is delicious, yes.

[Wolfmanne2]

It does seem pretty bollocks, yes.

By the way, I'll be in London in a couple of weeks from now. It would be wise for a EUian to crack political jokes about the Brexit, or should I just stick to weather as main argument?

Us Londoners are pro-European, so it should be cushty.

[HMS Vanguard]

As opposed to the zero times in history when we have directly elected a PM?

You mean to suggest British PM is as elected as EU commissioners are!? Blasphemy; we all know Great Britain is epitome of democracy and commissioners are unaccountable.

EU Commissioners have been about as democratically elected as British PMs for the past 18 months or so, I agree.