UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

[Divitaen]

Well to be fair its a vote of no confidence because its a reflection that the PLP has lost confidence in Corbyn's leadership after his failure in the Remain campaign which can be attributed to his very mixed views about EU membership hurting Labour turnout and energising the Labour Leave campaign.

But they need to win over the members as well. There's no point of the members supporting the Labour party, going out canvassing for it, getting out the vote, if the PLP makes it clear that their opinion is not respected. The rift between the members and the MP's needs to be resolved.

I agree, and unfortunately Corbyn actually widens that rift because he is supported by very ideologically-driven Labour voters in the leadership elections but he is opposed by PLP members who have to appeal to a much wider electorate.

[Imperializt Russia]

Explain to them how the Northern Ireland peace process worked. The IRA attacked the UK, to the point of attempted assassinations against sitting members of parliament and indeed the cabinet, until we eventually brought them to the negotiating table.

Hell even bring up Afghanistan, because a couple years ago, even there peace was within grasp.

Yes, except like I said, the key words I used were Islamophobic and pro-Zionist, those are two forces very strong in the Western world, including the UK. So reflexively the British public sees Hamas and Hezbollah as suicide-bombing terrorists, that's the kind of political obstacle you are dealing with that is unique to Islamic groups as compared to, say, the IRA.

You explain to them that it's a very simple choice, either Israeli citizens keep living in fear, as British citizens and indeed NIers did from the IRA, or we get a peace process going and resolve at least something.

Obviously, as we learned especially during Brexit, we don't achieve this by going "wrong lol, next question".

People need to be told they are wrong, but it has to be clearly explained. They have to be sold on what they disagree with, when they are wrong.
How can you placate an opinion that is simply wrong? What message does that send about policymaking?

If something is factually incorrect, politicians and political activists can, and should, take the time to explain the reality of the issue, although considering how "tired of experts" the British people apparently were, I'm not sure that would have mattered much.

But to just run your campaign telling people they are wrong for being 1-stupid, 2-racist, 3-bigoted, 4-ignorant, 5-Little Englanders etc. isn't going to get you votes, and that really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Like I said, this is the lesson that we did - or at least should have - learned from this.

[Divitaen]

Yes, except like I said, the key words I used were Islamophobic and pro-Zionist, those are two forces very strong in the Western world, including the UK. So reflexively the British public sees Hamas and Hezbollah as suicide-bombing terrorists, that's the kind of political obstacle you are dealing with that is unique to Islamic groups as compared to, say, the IRA.

You explain to them that it's a very simple choice, either Israeli citizens keep living in fear, as British citizens and indeed NIers did from the IRA, or we get a peace process going and resolve at least something.

I fear this is condescension talking, but British voters have a very knee-jerk reaction to Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Its very hard to use, cold, hard logic about complicated peacemaking and dealmaking to overcome that kind of emotional knee-jerk reaction to call Corbyn an anti-Semite for his call to include Hamas and Hezbollah in negotiations.

Yes, its irrational, I agree its wrong, but I still feel its politically impossible to sell that to the British voter and, by extension, hard to sell Jeremy Corbyn, however great he is.

[Olivaero]

But they need to win over the members as well. There's no point of the members supporting the Labour party, going out canvassing for it, getting out the vote, if the PLP makes it clear that their opinion is not respected. The rift between the members and the MP's needs to be resolved.

I agree, and unfortunately Corbyn actually widens that rift because he is supported by very ideologically-driven Labour voters in the leadership elections but he is opposed by PLP members who have to appeal to a much wider electorate.

Without the election of Corbyn this problem would be entirely ignored. The ideology of a political party is the most important part of it, we can't just be about winning power, we want to win power on our terms. Now maybe we can't do that with Corbyn It's not really as impossible as the centrists make out, it would certainly be more possible if the MP's actually cooperated, but they have shown themseleves to be children who have no idea what the word cooperation means. but At the very least the person needs to be centre left and they need to be some form of Keynesian. It can't just be Thatcherism revamped.

[Divitaen]

I agree, and unfortunately Corbyn actually widens that rift because he is supported by very ideologically-driven Labour voters in the leadership elections but he is opposed by PLP members who have to appeal to a much wider electorate.

Without the election of Corbyn this problem would be entirely ignored. The ideology of a political party is the most important part of it, we can't just be about winning power, we want to win power on our terms. Now maybe we can't do that with Corbyn It's not really as impossible as the centrists make out, it would certainly be more possible if the MP's actually cooperated, but they have shown themseleves to be children who have no idea what the word cooperation means. but At the very least the person needs to be centre left and they need to be some form of Keynesian. It can't just be Thatcherism revamped.

Look I understand if people argue Liz Kendall would have continued Labour's lurch to the right, but Owen Smith lambasted Cameron for cutting welfare in his austery measures during PMQs. Same for Angela Eagle who had a blistering critique of George Osborne's cuts to tax collection agencies resulting in a rise in tax evasion amongst the British wealthy. Eagle and Smith won't exactly sell the soul of the Labour Party. And they are far less controversial to the British public compared to someone like Corbyn who holds some views that I may agree with but are also viewed as extremist to the average British voter.

[Olerand]

You explain to them that it's a very simple choice, either Israeli citizens keep living in fear, as British citizens and indeed NIers did from the IRA, or we get a peace process going and resolve at least something.

I fear this is condescension talking, but British voters have a very knee-jerk reaction to Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Its very hard to use, cold, hard logic about complicated peacemaking and dealmaking to overcome that kind of emotional knee-jerk reaction to call Corbyn an anti-Semite for his call to include Hamas and Hezbollah in negotiations.

Yes, its irrational, I agree its wrong, but I still feel its politically impossible to sell that to the British voter and, by extension, hard to sell Jeremy Corbyn, however great he is.

I don't understand how Hamas and Hezbollah can be negotiated with. They are both Islamist and quasi-fascist organizations whose worldview is deplorable, not just regrettable, but actually sick.

In its charter, Hamas promises to throw the Jews into the sea. How are you gonna negotiate with that? The IRA is not Hamas or Hezbollah.

[Gauthier]

And how is it factual that women in combat roles will put "lives in danger"?

Well, men do much better in combat roles; as a result, the standard of squad performance is lowered, this can make a deadly situation worse. However, this is excluding individual cases and culture also plays a big role in this. I myself don't agree with him, I believe if you pass the tests you should be allowed to join regardless of gender, but he isn't necessarily wrong.

If that's the case, it's rather strange there are men who complain that women are excluded from combat roles because misandry.

[Olivaero]

Without the election of Corbyn this problem would be entirely ignored. The ideology of a political party is the most important part of it, we can't just be about winning power, we want to win power on our terms. Now maybe we can't do that with Corbyn It's not really as impossible as the centrists make out, it would certainly be more possible if the MP's actually cooperated, but they have shown themseleves to be children who have no idea what the word cooperation means. but At the very least the person needs to be centre left and they need to be some form of Keynesian. It can't just be Thatcherism revamped.

Look I understand if people argue Liz Kendall would have continued Labour's lurch to the right, but Owen Smith lambasted Cameron for cutting welfare in his austery measures during PMQs. Same for Angela Eagle who had a blistering critique of George Osborne's cuts to tax collection agencies resulting in a rise in tax evasion amongst the British wealthy. Eagle and Smith won't exactly sell the soul of the Labour Party. And they are far less controversial to the British public compared to someone like Corbyn who holds some views that I may agree with but are also viewed as extremist to the average British voter.

Owen Smith and Angela Eagle did not run in the leadership election. If they chose to run in a leadership election and got an idea for what direction they wanted to take the party in against corbyn, that would be fine. No cuts isn't good enough any more though, we're in a recession, we just don't know it yet, we need investment in the economy, which means spending increases, and, because they haven't stood in an election, I wouldn't know if they support those measures.

[Olerand]

So it seems that Cameron is going to appoint a new British commissioner, the ambassador in Paris, Julian King.

While this is... Unfortunate, Britain has at least lost the portfolio of the financial markets. London is apparently asking for the environment (why?) but Brussels is thinking it would be better to hand it some administrative file, like being in charge of the buildings and material equipment of the institution.

[Imperializt Russia]

You explain to them that it's a very simple choice, either Israeli citizens keep living in fear, as British citizens and indeed NIers did from the IRA, or we get a peace process going and resolve at least something.

I fear this is condescension talking, but British voters have a very knee-jerk reaction to Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Its very hard to use, cold, hard logic about complicated peacemaking and dealmaking to overcome that kind of emotional knee-jerk reaction to call Corbyn an anti-Semite for his call to include Hamas and Hezbollah in negotiations.

Yes, its irrational, I agree its wrong, but I still feel its politically impossible to sell that to the British voter and, by extension, hard to sell Jeremy Corbyn, however great he is.

This is rather the point, it has to be sold. We can't just say, "we need them around the table". It must be explained why.
Hell, if an Islamic community centre could get the EDL to pop in for tea, cake and a football match when they arrived to protest, then imagine what our politicians could do if they tried to actually engage.

Of course, when even the BBC isn't above picking out sensationalist headlines from very reasoned arguments that Corbyn makes not privately, but in actual interviews with BBC programmes, this is becoming ever more difficult to do.

[The Nihilistic view]

So it seems that Cameron is going to appoint a new British commissioner, the ambassador in Paris, Julian King.

While this is... Unfortunate, Britain has at least lost the portfolio of the financial markets. London is apparently asking for the environment (why?) but Brussels is thinking it would be better to hand it some administrative file, like being in charge of the buildings and material equipment of the institution.

Should have sent Farage.

[Great Kauthar]

Leadsom's CV thing has ruined her chances of becoming leader I think, more people have searched "Andrea Leadsom CV" on google than they have "Andrea Leadsom" or "Andrea Leadsom MP"

[Imperializt Russia]

Leadsom's CV thing has ruined her chances of becoming leader I think, more people have searched "Andrea Leadsom CV" on google than they have "Andrea Leadsom" or "Andrea Leadsom MP"

Realistically it's the UK equivalent of Clinton's emails and will probably have the same effect.
About nil.

[San Lumen]

Leadsom's CV thing has ruined her chances of becoming leader I think, more people have searched "Andrea Leadsom CV" on google than they have "Andrea Leadsom" or "Andrea Leadsom MP"

What does CV mean?

[Vassenor]

Leadsom's CV thing has ruined her chances of becoming leader I think, more people have searched "Andrea Leadsom CV" on google than they have "Andrea Leadsom" or "Andrea Leadsom MP"

What does CV mean?

Curriculum Vitae. British term for a Resume.

[Spiffier]

David Cameron lifted the ban on women in combat roles in the Military: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36746917?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Colonel Richard Kemp said that "this foolish move will reduce the capability of the infantry, undermine our national defences and put lives in danger"....

Wow honestly where do these misogynistic pigs all come from...

Are physical fitness tests the same for both sexes?

[Vassenor]

Colonel Richard Kemp said that "this foolish move will reduce the capability of the infantry, undermine our national defences and put lives in danger"....

Wow honestly where do these misogynistic pigs all come from...

Are physical fitness tests the same for both sexes?

Not currently, although I believe the intent is that they will be for the teeth arms.

[Wolfmanne2]

Differences between us can be summarised here. Fun game: guess whether I'm revisionist or third way.


I have a very dark sense of humour.

That and I react badly to jokes involving me getting lynched.

I'd be getting lynched too, though I'll be sure not to stand next to you whilst the KKK bash my skull in because I'd keep making jokes.

Differences between us can be summarised here. Fun game: guess whether I'm revisionist or third way.

You claim to have no real interest in socialism at all, so my gut assumption is third way.

No interest?

[Imperializt Russia]

You claim to have no real interest in socialism at all, so my gut assumption is third way.

No interest?

You said earlier words in the vein of "doesn't work" or "no longer relevant".

[Wolfmanne2]

No interest?

You said earlier words in the vein of "doesn't work" or "no longer relevant".

The traditional means don't. But the ends of increased equality of opportunity and equality of outcome can still be attained.

[Geilinor]

You explain to them that it's a very simple choice, either Israeli citizens keep living in fear, as British citizens and indeed NIers did from the IRA, or we get a peace process going and resolve at least something.

I fear this is condescension talking, but British voters have a very knee-jerk reaction to Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Its very hard to use, cold, hard logic about complicated peacemaking and dealmaking to overcome that kind of emotional knee-jerk reaction to call Corbyn an anti-Semite for his call to include Hamas and Hezbollah in negotiations.

Yes, its irrational, I agree its wrong, but I still feel its politically impossible to sell that to the British voter and, by extension, hard to sell Jeremy Corbyn, however great he is.

Talk about peacemaking and dealmaking but you need an actual plan and Corbyn had no leverage in his meetings with them. Just negotiating with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah without any conditions will not work.

[Imperializt Russia]

I fear this is condescension talking, but British voters have a very knee-jerk reaction to Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Its very hard to use, cold, hard logic about complicated peacemaking and dealmaking to overcome that kind of emotional knee-jerk reaction to call Corbyn an anti-Semite for his call to include Hamas and Hezbollah in negotiations.

Yes, its irrational, I agree its wrong, but I still feel its politically impossible to sell that to the British voter and, by extension, hard to sell Jeremy Corbyn, however great he is.

Talk about peacemaking and dealmaking but you need an actual plan and Corbyn had no leverage in his meetings with them. Just negotiating with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah without any conditions will not work.

I'm certain that Corbyn's never been to actually "negotiate" with either group. Israel haven't asked him to, and HM government certainly won't have asked him to.
He's presumably been over to try and get a relation going, he has no power to "negotiate".

[Wolfmanne2]

You explain to them that it's a very simple choice, either Israeli citizens keep living in fear, as British citizens and indeed NIers did from the IRA, or we get a peace process going and resolve at least something.

I fear this is condescension talking, but British voters have a very knee-jerk reaction to Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Its very hard to use, cold, hard logic about complicated peacemaking and dealmaking to overcome that kind of emotional knee-jerk reaction to call Corbyn an anti-Semite for his call to include Hamas and Hezbollah in negotiations.

Yes, its irrational, I agree its wrong, but I still feel its politically impossible to sell that to the British voter and, by extension, hard to sell Jeremy Corbyn, however great he is.

It's not condescension. I have a virulent disgust of terrorist organisations from the IRA to Daesh to Hamas.

[Freefall11111]

So we've got some council by-election results.

Eden (Appleby) result:
IND: 73.6% (+73.6)
CON: 26.4% (+26.4)
Ind GAIN from Ind.
Previously elected unopposed.

Suffolk (Carlford) result:
CON: 60.4% (+1.4)
LAB: 18.2% (+4.1)
LDEM: 12.1% (+4.2)
GRN: 9.3% (+9.3)
Con HOLD.

More interestingly, here are the results of various EU polls concerning EU membership. Remain/leave:
Germany: 59 / 25
France: 44 / 33
Denmark: 58 / 29
Sweden: 54 / 30
Finland: 49 / 29

There's also this piece of polling concerning whether we should be given a generous deal after leaving. Denmark and Norway seem to agree with us that we should get one. Germany, France, Sweden, and Finland think otherwise.

[Imperializt Russia]

I fear this is condescension talking, but British voters have a very knee-jerk reaction to Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Its very hard to use, cold, hard logic about complicated peacemaking and dealmaking to overcome that kind of emotional knee-jerk reaction to call Corbyn an anti-Semite for his call to include Hamas and Hezbollah in negotiations.

Yes, its irrational, I agree its wrong, but I still feel its politically impossible to sell that to the British voter and, by extension, hard to sell Jeremy Corbyn, however great he is.

It's not condescension. I have a virulent disgust of terrorist organisations from the IRA to Daesh to Hamas.

Don't we all.

But virulent disgust doesn't get us peace processes.