UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

[Divitaen]

That doesn't sound very fair to the women who do meet those standards though

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

Oh boy, here we go.

So you're saying if a woman meets the physical test and standards for active combat duty, she's somehow still unfit by virtue of being a woman?

[Vassenor]

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

He is the ally of brutal dictators and murderous medievalists who want to roll back every bit of progress the human race has made since the 17th century. His attitude combines the fellow-traveller naivete of the Old Left with the gentlemanly anti-semitism of the Old Right. As an internal, purely domestic advocate, opposing the Tory shredding of the safety net etc., he is tolerable but he would be an utter disaster as Prime Minister.

[Souseiseki]

He is the ally of brutal dictators and murderous medievalists who want to roll back every bit of progress the human race has made since the 17th century.

i cannot be arsed going through british foreign policy and our current attitudes to brutal dictators we like, it should already be known. by derivation from this my response should also be known.

His attitude combines the fellow-traveller naivete of the Old Left with the gentlemanly anti-semitism of the Old Right.

oh christ here wego

[Imperializt Russia]

That doesn't sound very fair to the women who do meet those standards though

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

They're already sent there. In one of a billion supporting and at times, even front-line roles (medic, EOD etc).

The only difference front-line service makes is being on the front line itself in slightly greater numbers than they already are.
So realistically, not different.

[Vassenor]

He is the ally of brutal dictators and murderous medievalists who want to roll back every bit of progress the human race has made since the 17th century.

i cannot be arsed going through british foreign policy and our current attitudes to brutal dictators we like, it should already be known. by derivation from this my response should also be known.

His attitude combines the fellow-traveller naivete of the Old Left with the gentlemanly anti-semitism of the Old Right.

oh christ here wego

Tony Blair getting buddy-buddy with Ghaddafi and Cameron's fling with the Chinese says hi.

Oh yeah, and that thing with Mrs Thatcher and Pinochet.

[Divitaen]

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

Yeah they have just been waiting for the opportunity to pounce on him and chose this moment here, and it seems to have backfired on them as from the looks of it they had no plan for what to do if he did not back down immediately. And as far as i am concerned, he won the majority of the membership vote on becoming leader, until that changes he should stay leader. When the election for labour leader comes and he loses a majority vote then yeah he should step down, if he wins he should continue to lead them.

Did he do as much as he should have for the referendum? No not really, but he was voted in by the labours members, not just the MP's and they should be able to show their view on the matter as well, then it will be decided.

We all know those leadership elections, much like US primaries, occur amongst a very, very skewed and small section of the total voting population, and the ideologies of leadership election voters tend to be significantly more extreme than that of the average Labour voter. This was proven by how Jeremy Corbyn basically benefitted from the general sexism and misogyny of British society which made it very difficult for Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall to make the case for their election in the popular vote. There is significant evidence of online vitriol by many of Corbyn's fanatical online supporters that was directed at Kendall and Cooper, particularly Kendall, calling her a "bitch" and a "cow".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11822970/Labours-deep-sexism-has-been-exposed.html

[Olerand]

As well as an actual air-craft carrier, the political will to engage abroad, and the political desire -we're trying, haven't succeeded yet but we're trying- to have Germany pay for our military excursions.

And what on earth did I just watch?

tbf QE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
CDG

she is nearly ready soon

First things first, get the thing running. And two, of course it is, Charles de Gaulle was made in the 1990s, Queen Elizabeth is still currently under production. The technological advancements alone should give it a boost, although is QE nuclear?

[Philjia]

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

Oh boy, here we go.

So you're saying if a woman meets the physical test and standards for active combat duty, she's somehow still unfit by virtue of being a woman?

No. The problem isn't so much how they will react, it's how everyone else will. Warzones are bad enough without adding the possibility of gender discrimination to the mix.

[Imperializt Russia]

tbf QE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
CDG

she is nearly ready soon

First things first, get the thing running. And two, of course it is, Charles de Gaulle was made in the 1990s, Queen Elizabeth is still currently under production. The technological advancements alone should give it a boost, although is QE nuclear?

QE will not be nuclear, on cost and questionable necessity grounds.

[Philjia]

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

They're already sent there. In one of a billion supporting and at times, even front-line roles (medic, EOD etc).

The only difference front-line service makes is being on the front line itself in slightly greater numbers than they already are.
So realistically, not different.

Eh, fair enough.

Mostly this is my obsession with worst case scenarios talking.

[Souseiseki]

liz kendall was the most right-wing candidate in an election where the most left-wing candidate got a majority

she was fucked and no amount of twitter abuse of lack thereof would have changed that

[Divitaen]

They don't support him because of his lacklustre support and performance in the Remain campaign. He wasn't exactly a stronger and enthusiastic supporter of the EU before and even in July 2015 he was expressing views that he would leave the EU if it became a more "brutal organisation" and said he would not rule out leaving the EU if Cameron renegotiated the EU terms over workers' rights. That's certainly enough to make the Parliamentary Labour Party upset at his leadership.

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

I know the Blairites were certainly against him, Alastair Campbell and Tony Blair all said he would make the Labour Party unelectable, but the facts are now he failed to rally the Labour base sufficiently to turn out and support Remain, and partly it is because he is a lacklustre supporter of the EU in the first place. Angela Eagle and Owen Smith simply feel upset that Corbyn caused Labour to fail on what is arguably a key electoral issue of theirs.

[Divitaen]

liz kendall was the most right-wing candidate in an election where the most left-wing candidate got a majority

she was fucked and no amount of twitter abuse of lack thereof would have changed that

Polls conducted amongst the Tories also showed that she was the candidate they feared the most. They were the most worried that Kendall would get elected by the Labour voters because even the Tories saw her as the most electable and moderate.

[Ifreann]

That doesn't sound very fair to the women who do meet those standards though

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

Why not? Obviously the bonds of camaraderie will be no less strong for the presence of a uterus.

[Divitaen]

Oh boy, here we go.

So you're saying if a woman meets the physical test and standards for active combat duty, she's somehow still unfit by virtue of being a woman?

No. The problem isn't so much how they will react, it's how everyone else will. Warzones are bad enough without adding the possibility of gender discrimination to the mix.

So let's punish the women instead for the misogyny of other soldiers? What about, as the military does all the time, we train the other soldiers to man-up and stop being assholes about it and learn to get along. If you don't like someone in your unit your commander doesn't transfer the guy out. No, he forces and teaches you to try and get along with him. It should be the same for women or homosexuals wanting to join the military, or combat roles.

[Souseiseki]

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

I know the Blairites were certainly against him, Alastair Campbell and Tony Blair all said he would make the Labour Party unelectable, but the facts are now he failed to rally the Labour base sufficiently to turn out and support Remain, and partly it is because he is a lacklustre supporter of the EU in the first place. Angela Eagle and Owen Smith simply feel upset that Corbyn caused Labour to fail on what is arguably a key electoral issue of theirs.

labour had roughly the same remain vote as the SNP. are people calling for nicola sturgeons resignation?

no, that'd be absolutely ridiculous.

he made plenty of speeches in favour of remain, the media that was for the most part pro-brexit and anti-corbyn mostly didn't bother with them because they're bad at producing soundbites for them.

[Divitaen]

I know the Blairites were certainly against him, Alastair Campbell and Tony Blair all said he would make the Labour Party unelectable, but the facts are now he failed to rally the Labour base sufficiently to turn out and support Remain, and partly it is because he is a lacklustre supporter of the EU in the first place. Angela Eagle and Owen Smith simply feel upset that Corbyn caused Labour to fail on what is arguably a key electoral issue of theirs.

labour had roughly the same remain vote as the SNP. are people calling for nicola sturgeons resignation?

no, that'd be absolutely ridiculous.

he made plenty of speeches in favour of remain, the media that was for the most part pro-brexit and anti-corbyn mostly didn't bother with them because they're bad at producing soundbites for them.

And also maybe because Labour Leave ended up having more legitimacy because they could argue that Corbyn was secretly a Leave supporter based on his previous critical comments about the EU and talking about how if the EU became a more "brutal organisation" he would be pushed to support Leave.

[Souseiseki]

liz kendall was the most right-wing candidate in an election where the most left-wing candidate got a majority

she was fucked and no amount of twitter abuse of lack thereof would have changed that

Polls conducted amongst the Tories also showed that she was the candidate they feared the most. They were the most worried that Kendall would get elected by the Labour voters because even the Tories saw her as the most electable and moderate.

she is only "moderate" and "electable" when compared to the magical centre because it has moved so far right precisely because we kept electing people that would chase the tories instead of actually opposing them

[Divitaen]

Polls conducted amongst the Tories also showed that she was the candidate they feared the most. They were the most worried that Kendall would get elected by the Labour voters because even the Tories saw her as the most electable and moderate.

she is only "moderate" and "electable" when compared to the magical centre because it has moved so far right precisely because we kept electing people that would chase the tories instead of actually opposing them

So do you honestly feel that Corbyn is a more electable candidate for the Labour Party compared to someone like Liz Kendall? I'll be honest with you, as a left-wing socialist I agree with a lot, in fact the overwhelming majority, of what Corbyn supports, but do you really feel that following his direction would actually make the Labour Party more electable in the future, compared to a moderate candidate?

[Imperializt Russia]

she is only "moderate" and "electable" when compared to the magical centre because it has moved so far right precisely because we kept electing people that would chase the tories instead of actually opposing them

So do you honestly feel that Corbyn is a more electable candidate for the Labour Party compared to someone like Liz Kendall? I'll be honest with you, as a left-wing socialist I agree with a lot, in fact the overwhelming majority, of what Corbyn supports, but do you really feel that following his direction would actually make the Labour Party more electable in the future, compared to a moderate candidate?

We're at a bit of a political turning point. We can accept that the Labour party is a socialist party and turn to the left it is supposed to represent, or we can spend another decade chasing the Tories and failing, because there's already a Tory party, it's called the Tory party.

[Olerand]

First things first, get the thing running. And two, of course it is, Charles de Gaulle was made in the 1990s, Queen Elizabeth is still currently under production. The technological advancements alone should give it a boost, although is QE nuclear?

QE will not be nuclear, on cost and questionable necessity grounds.

OK so we still got that.

[Souseiseki]

she is only "moderate" and "electable" when compared to the magical centre because it has moved so far right precisely because we kept electing people that would chase the tories instead of actually opposing them

So do you honestly feel that Corbyn is a more electable candidate for the Labour Party compared to someone like Liz Kendall? I'll be honest with you, as a left-wing socialist I agree with a lot, in fact the overwhelming majority, of what Corbyn supports, but do you really feel that following his direction would actually make the Labour Party more electable in the future, compared to a moderate candidate?

what have our "moderate" candidates got us, exactly? all that has happened is that we have moved further to the right. the glorious liz kendall, like many other right-wing candidates, does nothing to combat the tory narratives of austerity and scroungers. they have let labour be blamed for a global recession and admitted the tories are the party of economic competence (*brexit*) and we need to follow in their footsteps, becoming more "moderate" (read: right-wing). it's a farce.

the point is to present a real alternative to tory and tory-lite "moderates" and make him electable. the tories just fucking blew the country up and we can't capitalize on it because these pricks can't stab trying to backstab corbyn at every single turn. imagine what it could be like if we said "no that's bullshit" instead of "yeah you're right but can we go a bit slower?".

[Imperializt Russia]

QE will not be nuclear, on cost and questionable necessity grounds.

OK so we still got that.

As the person in this thread with the biggest and hardest of hard-ons for nuclear power - nuclear powerplant doesn't inherently make a warship "better".
Some countries, notably the Russians, are chopping in some of their fleet's reactors for conventional steam plants. The US abandoned reactors for anything but (super)carriers and subs decades ago.

I would argue that CdG has little real need for a reactor plant. I further argue that in service, its reactor plant will demonstrate little practical advantage over QE and its eventual sister ship.

[Souseiseki]

modern british politics can be summed as when a woman came on TV to cry about taxes on estates worth >£100,000 and painted it as unfair and acted like it affected everyone and the electorate fucking bought it

they actually bought into the story of this poor fucking soul being put on the edge of the breadline because of these evils taxes

they fucking bought into oh what if i want to leave something to my kids oh the ~*death taxes*~ as well

[Divitaen]

So do you honestly feel that Corbyn is a more electable candidate for the Labour Party compared to someone like Liz Kendall? I'll be honest with you, as a left-wing socialist I agree with a lot, in fact the overwhelming majority, of what Corbyn supports, but do you really feel that following his direction would actually make the Labour Party more electable in the future, compared to a moderate candidate?

We're at a bit of a political turning point. We can accept that the Labour party is a socialist party and turn to the left it is supposed to represent, or we can spend another decade chasing the Tories and failing, because there's already a Tory party, it's called the Tory party.

Labour doesn't have to chase the Tories though, it doesn't have to try and be conservative. It just doesn't need to be so radical that it turns off the average voter. I'm just looking at it from the perspective of political pragmatism here. I mean Jeremy Corbyn supports complete unilateral denuclearisation, has compared Israel's current policy to apartheid and has said that Hamas and Hezbollah should be included in peace negotiations with Israel. He wants to renationalise all British energy companies. Now I agree with all of that, but I'm pragmatic enough to realise that's very far from what the average British voter is comfortable with, and the Corbynite takeover represents a lurch to the left that hurts Labour's electability.