UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

[CoraSpia]

angela eagle continues her brutal "please stand down or i might stand against you eventually maybe how about next week maybe if you feel like it o-oh actually i don't feel like it maybe the week after then" onslaught against corbyn

I'm actually starting to wonder if their's something seriously wrong with that woman.

[Minzerland]

Facts are misogynistic?

And how is it factual that women in combat roles will put "lives in danger"?

Well, men do much better in combat roles; as a result, the standard of squad performance is lowered, this can make a deadly situation worse. However, this is excluding individual cases and culture also plays a big role in this. I myself don't agree with him, I believe if you pass the tests you should be allowed to join regardless of gender, but he isn't necessarily wrong.

[Imperializt Russia]

Physical fitness, basically. On average, women are not as physically capable as men, which isn't an untrue statement.

I remember when she was training for the officer programme, she worked herself nearly to death to get there.
She quit the training at a very early phase because she despised the "break you down to build you up" style of psychological conditioning.

It's not true, but the solution to that is to get rid of 'average,' and to make it completely genderless. As in, men and women held to the same standards: it wil result in very few women making the grade, but it's the most fair way of doing it while not compromising affectiveness.

I'm not entirely certain you're responding to what I said or what the actual proposal was.

The average woman, being shorter and substantially lighter than the average man, is less physically capable than the average man.
This is not a reason to deny women who meet existing fitness standards combat roles.
It does however come across to the extent that women soldiers who were forced to march with a male-standard stride (when they should not have been and instead marched with the proscribed female-standard stride) were actually injured on exercise.

And, anecdotally, all women I know who have passed military training (the few that I do) received physical injuries, one was discharged because it was mistreated and failed to properly heal and has tried to get back in ever since.
I don't know a single male who has, though I haven't asked, admitted being physically injured during military training.

[Philjia]

Uh oh. And what was her reasoning for that?

Physical fitness, basically. On average, women are not as physically capable as men, which isn't an untrue statement.

I remember when she was training for the officer programme, she worked herself nearly to death to get there.
She quit the training at a very early phase because she despised the "break you down to build you up" style of psychological conditioning.

They might as well open the training on a trial basis, and just weed out everybody who's not up to standard, physically or psychologically.

[Imperializt Russia]

And how is it factual that women in combat roles will put "lives in danger"?

Well, men do much better in combat roles; as a result, the standard of squad performance is lowered, this can make a deadly situation worse. However, this is excluding individual cases and culture also plays a big role in this. I myself don't agree with him, I believe if you pass the tests you should be allowed to join regardless of gender, but he isn't necessarily wrong.

Since no-one is proposing changing the standards, he is wrong.

[Minzerland]

Facts are misogynistic?

Those statements aren't factual.

If the standards were significantly lowered (and I mean enormously, and solely for the point of getting all 7,000 female army members into combat units for whatever reason or something), then he would have a point.
But that's what precisely no-one is proposing or has proposed.

Even if the standards were slightly lowered, that is not an inherent loss of capability, so it's still not a factual statement.

Yes, you are correct.

[Imperializt Russia]

Physical fitness, basically. On average, women are not as physically capable as men, which isn't an untrue statement.

I remember when she was training for the officer programme, she worked herself nearly to death to get there.
She quit the training at a very early phase because she despised the "break you down to build you up" style of psychological conditioning.

They might as well open the training on a trial basis, and just weed out everybody who's not up to standard, physically or psychologically.

She wasn't mentally scarred by it or whatever, she just didn't co-operate with it, and chose to leave because she would not.
She now works in Army Headquarters, though technically what as is beyond me.

[Divitaen]

Uh oh. And what was her reasoning for that?

Physical fitness, basically. On average, women are not as physically capable as men, which isn't an untrue statement.

I remember when she was training for the officer programme, she worked herself nearly to death to get there.
She quit the training at a very early phase because she despised the "break you down to build you up" style of psychological conditioning.

Yeah....but you have to pass certain physical tests and requirements to be allowed on active combat duty anyways. Why should it matter what the sex of that person is?

[Minzerland]

Well, men do much better in combat roles; as a result, the standard of squad performance is lowered, this can make a deadly situation worse. However, this is excluding individual cases and culture also plays a big role in this. I myself don't agree with him, I believe if you pass the tests you should be allowed to join regardless of gender, but he isn't necessarily wrong.

Since no-one is proposing changing the standards, he is wrong.

Yes, I am aware; I came in believing standards were being lowered, I was wrong, I apologise.

[Divitaen]

angela eagle continues her brutal "please stand down or i might stand against you eventually maybe how about next week maybe if you feel like it o-oh actually i don't feel like it maybe the week after then" onslaught against corbyn

But Corbyn should stand down. The Parliamentary Labour Party is completely against him and he's lost their confidence. That isn't a sign of particularly strong or compelling leadership. He needs to stand down and make way for a challenge from Owen Smith or Angela Eagle for the sake of the Labour Party.

[Imperializt Russia]

Physical fitness, basically. On average, women are not as physically capable as men, which isn't an untrue statement.

I remember when she was training for the officer programme, she worked herself nearly to death to get there.
She quit the training at a very early phase because she despised the "break you down to build you up" style of psychological conditioning.

Yeah....but you have to pass certain physical tests and requirements to be allowed on active combat duty anyways. Why should it matter what the sex of that person is?

I cannot recall if she subscribed to the "unit cohesion" narrative or not.

One could make the argument that if so few women would pass combat training standards, there is little point in making the effort to open the roles to them.

[Souseiseki]

angela eagle continues her brutal "please stand down or i might stand against you eventually maybe how about next week maybe if you feel like it o-oh actually i don't feel like it maybe the week after then" onslaught against corbyn

But Corbyn should stand down. The Parliamentary Labour Party is completely against him and he's lost their confidence. That isn't a sign of particularly strong or compelling leadership. He needs to stand down and make way for a challenge from Owen Smith or Angela Eagle for the sake of the Labour Party.

why? this entire thing is a fight against the PLP for the future of the labour party. yes, the PLP are against him. they were never going to support him in the first place. ever.

e: maybe the PLP should stop acting like a bunch of children because we elected someone they don't like.... for the sake of the labour party

[Ifreann]

David Cameron lifted the ban on women in combat roles in the Military: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36746917?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Oh yeah, Cameron's still PM...

[Imperializt Russia]

Since no-one is proposing changing the standards, he is wrong.

Yes, I am aware; I came in believing standards were being lowered, I was wrong, I apologise.

Oh fair enough, then I retract that last post.

[Divitaen]

Yeah....but you have to pass certain physical tests and requirements to be allowed on active combat duty anyways. Why should it matter what the sex of that person is?

I cannot recall if she subscribed to the "unit cohesion" narrative or not.

One could make the argument that if so few women would pass combat training standards, there is little point in making the effort to open the roles to them.

That doesn't sound very fair to the women who do meet those standards though

[Divitaen]

But Corbyn should stand down. The Parliamentary Labour Party is completely against him and he's lost their confidence. That isn't a sign of particularly strong or compelling leadership. He needs to stand down and make way for a challenge from Owen Smith or Angela Eagle for the sake of the Labour Party.

why? this entire thing is a fight against the PLP for the future of the labour party. yes, the PLP are against him. they were never going to support him in the first place. ever.

e: maybe the PLP should stop acting like a bunch of children because we elected someone they don't like.... for the sake of the labour party

They don't support him because of his lacklustre support and performance in the Remain campaign. He wasn't exactly a stronger and enthusiastic supporter of the EU before and even in July 2015 he was expressing views that he would leave the EU if it became a more "brutal organisation" and said he would not rule out leaving the EU if Cameron renegotiated the EU terms over workers' rights. That's certainly enough to make the Parliamentary Labour Party upset at his leadership.

[Divitaen]

David Cameron lifted the ban on women in combat roles in the Military: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36746917?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Oh yeah, Cameron's still PM...

Haha easy to forget that spinless gambling politician is still actually in control of something, right?

[Imperializt Russia]

Whelp, she met those standards, so it's not like she lacked aspiration.

[Souseiseki]

why? this entire thing is a fight against the PLP for the future of the labour party. yes, the PLP are against him. they were never going to support him in the first place. ever.

e: maybe the PLP should stop acting like a bunch of children because we elected someone they don't like.... for the sake of the labour party

They don't support him because of his lacklustre support and performance in the Remain campaign. He wasn't exactly a stronger and enthusiastic supporter of the EU before and even in July 2015 he was expressing views that he would leave the EU if it became a more "brutal organisation" and said he would not rule out leaving the EU if Cameron renegotiated the EU terms over workers' rights. That's certainly enough to make the Parliamentary Labour Party upset at his leadership.

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

[Divitaen]

They don't support him because of his lacklustre support and performance in the Remain campaign. He wasn't exactly a stronger and enthusiastic supporter of the EU before and even in July 2015 he was expressing views that he would leave the EU if it became a more "brutal organisation" and said he would not rule out leaving the EU if Cameron renegotiated the EU terms over workers' rights. That's certainly enough to make the Parliamentary Labour Party upset at his leadership.

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

I know the Blairites were certainly against him, Alastair Campbell, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair all said he would make the Labour Party unelectable, but the facts are now he failed to rally the Labour base sufficiently to turn out and support Remain, and partly it is because he is a lacklustre supporter of the EU in the first place. Angela Eagle and Owen Smith simply feel upset that Corbyn caused Labour to fail on what is arguably a key electoral issue of theirs.

[The Huskar Social Union]

They don't support him because of his lacklustre support and performance in the Remain campaign. He wasn't exactly a stronger and enthusiastic supporter of the EU before and even in July 2015 he was expressing views that he would leave the EU if it became a more "brutal organisation" and said he would not rule out leaving the EU if Cameron renegotiated the EU terms over workers' rights. That's certainly enough to make the Parliamentary Labour Party upset at his leadership.

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

Yeah they have just been waiting for the opportunity to pounce on him and chose this moment here, and it seems to have backfired on them as from the looks of it they had no plan for what to do if he did not back down immediately. And as far as i am concerned, he won the majority of the membership vote on becoming leader, until that changes he should stay leader. When the election for labour leader comes and he loses a majority vote then yeah he should step down, if he wins he should continue to lead them.

Did he do as much as he should have for the referendum? No not really, but he was voted in by the labours members, not just the MP's and they should be able to show their view on the matter as well, then it will be decided.

[Philjia]

I cannot recall if she subscribed to the "unit cohesion" narrative or not.

One could make the argument that if so few women would pass combat training standards, there is little point in making the effort to open the roles to them.

That doesn't sound very fair to the women who do meet those standards though

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

[Souseiseki]

That doesn't sound very fair to the women who do meet those standards though

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

oh boy please tell us more

[Tmutarakhan]

They don't support him because of his lacklustre support and performance in the Remain campaign. He wasn't exactly a stronger and enthusiastic supporter of the EU before and even in July 2015 he was expressing views that he would leave the EU if it became a more "brutal organisation" and said he would not rule out leaving the EU if Cameron renegotiated the EU terms over workers' rights. That's certainly enough to make the Parliamentary Labour Party upset at his leadership.

no. they don't support him because he is too left for him. they were against him from day one. the constant leaks and attacks on him from his own party predate the entirety of the remain campaign.

He is the ally of brutal dictators and murderous medievalists who want to roll back every bit of progress the human race has made since the 17th century. His attitude combines the fellow-traveller naivete of the Old Left with the gentlemanly anti-semitism of the Old Right. As an internal, purely domestic advocate, opposing the Tory shredding of the safety net etc., he is tolerable but he would be an utter disaster as Prime Minister.

[Great Nepal]

That doesn't sound very fair to the women who do meet those standards though

Do you want be the one who sends women to a stressful and dangerous environment where, let's say, 90% of the other people are men?

If someone can't handle themselves in stressful situations, leading to disobeying military code of condition or possibly civilian laws, and they are cleared to go on active duty, I'd say we messed up somewhere in psych analysis regardless of the gender.