UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

[Anywhere Else But Here]

So it's a certainty the next Prime Minister of the UK will be a woman. May is far more qualified for the job then Leadsom is. She has more experience and been in government longer. Who would have that would happen?

Its very possible that Corbyn will face a leadership challenge by a woman. I hope he faces a leadership challenge. he lost a vote of no confidence and refuses to resign. That's extremely arrogant and self centered.

Corbyn may well still have the support of the party. If his detractors would stop pussying about and actually mount a challenge we'd find out for sure.

[San Lumen]

So it's a certainty the next Prime Minister of the UK will be a woman. May is far more qualified for the job then Leadsom is. She has more experience and been in government longer. Who would have that would happen?

Its very possible that Corbyn will face a leadership challenge by a woman. I hope he faces a leadership challenge. he lost a vote of no confidence and refuses to resign. That's extremely arrogant and self centered.

Corbyn may well still have the support of the party. If his detractors would stop pussying about and actually mount a challenge we'd find out for sure.

I wish he would face a leadership challenge. I think he's unelectable.

[Geilinor]

You realise a majority of conservative supporters were against the bill right? And this electorate is made up of 100% conservatives?

Source?

A majority of Tory MP's voted against same-sex marriage.

[MERIZoC]

Future leader of the Tory party, taking control of the party that actually brought gay marriage to the UK? If she were to take that stance, it'd be a disaster.

The interview was certainly in some relation to the leadership race - couldn't say at what actual stage.

You realise a majority of conservative supporters were against the bill right? And this electorate is made up of 100% conservatives?

Charming party, eh?

[San Lumen]

Source?

A majority of Tory MP's voted against same-sex marriage.

Doesn;t matter. The law isn't going to be repealed.

[Geilinor]

A majority of Tory MP's voted against same-sex marriage.

Doesn;t matter. The law isn't going to be repealed.

Nobody said it will be repealed but having opposed it works well with this crowd.

[The Nihilistic view]

A majority of Tory MP's voted against same-sex marriage.

Doesn;t matter. The law isn't going to be repealed.

That's not the point here. That's not even her point. The point is winning the support of a group of generally older more religious people who on balance don't approve of said law.

[Geilinor]

Is everything in British politics now a farce? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/labour-leadership-jeremy-corbyn-bitter-war
An actual quote from Corbyn's office:

A senior source close to Corbyn explained: “They want Watson to be on his own with him so that he can jab his finger at him. We are not letting that happen. We have a duty of care here. He’s a 70-year-old man [sic]. This is not a one-off. There is a culture of bullying, maybe it’s a Blairite/Brownite thing. But while they see two old men [Corbyn and McDonnell], they don’t see the 250,000 people behind them.”

And this:

On Friday evening, Labour officials and press officers drank “dark and stormy” cocktails (ingredients: dark rum and ginger beer) at Labour’s headquarters in Victoria to mark the departure of a press officer. “The cocktail felt apt,” said one who attended.

[Souseiseki]

Future leader of the Tory party, taking control of the party that actually brought gay marriage to the UK? If she were to take that stance, it'd be a disaster.

The interview was certainly in some relation to the leadership race - couldn't say at what actual stage.

You realise a majority of conservative supporters were against the bill right? And this electorate is made up of 100% conservatives?

is "lol" too a short a response to this

[Divitaen]

Theresa May apparently wanted LGBT asylum-seekers to "prove their sexuality" by showing revealing photos and explicit videos, and apparently under her watch of the Home Office denied that LGBT asylum-seekers were really LGBT if they had children.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/andrea-leadsom-and-theresa-may-are-two-of-britains-most-prominent-homophobes-and-ones-about-to-a7125131.html

Until very recently, as in until Cameron legalized gay marriage fairly early, relatively that is of course, Britain has never been on the cutting edge of LGBT rights in Europe. The Tory candidates for PM seem to have consistently conservative views on the issue, if sometimes flirting with reactionary ideas.

The Conservative Party is still deeply homophobic, no doubt about it. Amongst all the expected candidates for the leadership election, Crabb supports conversion therapy, Fox called the notion of voting for same-sex marriage legalisation divisive and absurd, Leadsom now says gay marriage would "hurt Christians" (I have no idea how), Johnson compared homosexuality to bestiality and now we know May's policy over the Home Office towards asylum-seekers, forcing them to reveal explicit videos of themselves to prove their LGBT status, or even claiming asylum-seekers who had children could not possibly be LGBT. Unbelievable. Whoever wins, the Conservative Party turns back the clock to the dinosaur age once again. How any LGBT person in the UK could vote for the Tories or UKIP is beyond me.

[Ifreann]

So it's a certainty the next Prime Minister of the UK will be a woman. May is far more qualified for the job then Leadsom is. She has more experience and been in government longer. Who would have that would happen?

Not exactly a shocking turn of events.

Its very possible that Corbyn will face a leadership challenge by a woman. I hope he faces a leadership challenge. he lost a vote of no confidence and refuses to resign. That's extremely arrogant and self centered.

A quarter of a million people voted for Corbyn to be leader of the Labour party. Why should he resign on the basis of a few dozen lacking confidence in him?

[San Lumen]

So it's a certainty the next Prime Minister of the UK will be a woman. May is far more qualified for the job then Leadsom is. She has more experience and been in government longer. Who would have that would happen?

Not exactly a shocking turn of events.

Its very possible that Corbyn will face a leadership challenge by a woman. I hope he faces a leadership challenge. he lost a vote of no confidence and refuses to resign. That's extremely arrogant and self centered.

A quarter of a million people voted for Corbyn to be leader of the Labour party. Why should he resign on the basis of a few dozen lacking confidence in him?

Because his party in parliament has no confidence in him as leader. I hope they refuse to work with him and oust him in coup. In almost every circumstance when a Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence they resign because they don't have the support of their members in parliament.

[Divitaen]

Is everything in British politics now a farce? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/labour-leadership-jeremy-corbyn-bitter-war
An actual quote from Corbyn's office:

A senior source close to Corbyn explained: “They want Watson to be on his own with him so that he can jab his finger at him. We are not letting that happen. We have a duty of care here. He’s a 70-year-old man [sic]. This is not a one-off. There is a culture of bullying, maybe it’s a Blairite/Brownite thing. But while they see two old men [Corbyn and McDonnell], they don’t see the 250,000 people behind them.”

And this:

On Friday evening, Labour officials and press officers drank “dark and stormy” cocktails (ingredients: dark rum and ginger beer) at Labour’s headquarters in Victoria to mark the departure of a press officer. “The cocktail felt apt,” said one who attended.

Well....the Labour Parliamentary Party hasn't exactly been a fan of Jeremy Corbyn for a very long time. Alastair Campbell, Gordon Brown and others opposed his candidacy from the start. The Chilcot report is only going to give Corbyn and his allies like McDonnell another boost in support and popularity. But to be fair I kind of understand why the Angela Eagle and Owen Smith crowd is so upset and trying to plot an internal coup, Corbyn really didn't put in as much into the Remain campaign as he could have to get Labour voters energised to vote Remain, and partly its because Corbyn's history shows he's never liked the EU and probably wasn't very concerned or anxious about the prospect of Brexit....after all he voted against joining the EU in the first place back in the 70s.

[Souseiseki]

Not exactly a shocking turn of events.


A quarter of a million people voted for Corbyn to be leader of the Labour party. Why should he resign on the basis of a few dozen lacking confidence in him?

Because his party in parliament has no confidence in him as leader. I hope they refuse to work with him and oust him in coup. In almost every circumstance when a Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence they resign because they don't have the support of their members in parliament.

imagine may gets voted in my the conservative party members.

the party proceed to throw a shit fit and sabotage her at every turn and try to get her out.

how do you respond to this?

[Divitaen]

You realise a majority of conservative supporters were against the bill right? And this electorate is made up of 100% conservatives?

is "lol" too a short a response to this

This is my reaction whenever people "applaud" the Tories for bringing gay marriage to the UK. Or when people applaud Nigel Farage and UKIP for taking banning gay marriage out of the party platform. Excuse me? If you're applauding them for this incremental, tiny, "let's not hate gay people too much" why not credit the Labour Party and the Lib Dems for supporting same-sex marriage much, much earlier, and much more enthusiastically?

[Divitaen]

Because his party in parliament has no confidence in him as leader. I hope they refuse to work with him and oust him in coup. In almost every circumstance when a Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence they resign because they don't have the support of their members in parliament.

imagine may gets voted in my the conservative party members.

the party proceed to throw a shit fit and sabotage her at every turn and try to get her out.

how do you respond to this?

But that would never happen though, unless a scandal breaks. May is by and large the favourite of the Tory establishment.

[San Lumen]

Because his party in parliament has no confidence in him as leader. I hope they refuse to work with him and oust him in coup. In almost every circumstance when a Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence they resign because they don't have the support of their members in parliament.

imagine may gets voted in my the conservative party members.

the party proceed to throw a shit fit and sabotage her at every turn and try to get her out.

how do you respond to this?

But her party supports her. Most of the Conservative MPs want her as the next Prime Minister.

[Souseiseki]

imagine may gets voted in my the conservative party members.

the party proceed to throw a shit fit and sabotage her at every turn and try to get her out.

how do you respond to this?

But her party supports her. Most of the Conservative MPs want her as the next Prime Minister.

it's a hypothetical, thus the word "imagine"

how would you respond?

[Divitaen]

But her party supports her. Most of the Conservative MPs want her as the next Prime Minister.

it's a hypothetical, thus the word "imagine"

how would you respond?

If I may respond as well, since I also believe Jeremy Corbyn ought to resign at this point, May should resign in that case as well. You can't govern properly or effectively unless you have the general confidence of the Parliamentary Party. That doesn't make you a very sound or good leader.

[Olerand]

Until very recently, as in until Cameron legalized gay marriage fairly early, relatively that is of course, Britain has never been on the cutting edge of LGBT rights in Europe. The Tory candidates for PM seem to have consistently conservative views on the issue, if sometimes flirting with reactionary ideas.

The Conservative Party is still deeply homophobic, no doubt about it. Amongst all the expected candidates for the leadership election, Crabb supports conversion therapy, Fox called the notion of voting for same-sex marriage legalisation divisive and absurd, Leadsom now says gay marriage would "hurt Christians" (I have no idea how), Johnson compared homosexuality to bestiality and now we know May's policy over the Home Office towards asylum-seekers, forcing them to reveal explicit videos of themselves to prove their LGBT status, or even claiming asylum-seekers who had children could not possibly be LGBT. Unbelievable. Whoever wins, the Conservative Party turns back the clock to the dinosaur age once again. How any LGBT person in the UK could vote for the Tories or UKIP is beyond me.

For the same reason almost two thirds of gays in France vote for the right or radical right.
The political center is shifting so that the right and radical right can not like gays, but they can no longer re-institute the discriminations of the past either. The LGBTs of Britain/France being part of greater society, they also have other issues they care about, and as society moves rightward, so do they.
There is also a serious and understandable fear of immigration, particularly Muslim immigration, from the gay community in Europe, and that's bound to send some to the right. Though I would understand voting for the right or radical right for this issue in France, I don't see how one could vote for the Tories on this, as they don't strike me as anti-immigration in anything but rhetoric, and are certainly no defenders against conservative Islam, although perhaps more than the Labour Party that is true, but still no great defenders anyway.

[Divitaen]

The Conservative Party is still deeply homophobic, no doubt about it. Amongst all the expected candidates for the leadership election, Crabb supports conversion therapy, Fox called the notion of voting for same-sex marriage legalisation divisive and absurd, Leadsom now says gay marriage would "hurt Christians" (I have no idea how), Johnson compared homosexuality to bestiality and now we know May's policy over the Home Office towards asylum-seekers, forcing them to reveal explicit videos of themselves to prove their LGBT status, or even claiming asylum-seekers who had children could not possibly be LGBT. Unbelievable. Whoever wins, the Conservative Party turns back the clock to the dinosaur age once again. How any LGBT person in the UK could vote for the Tories or UKIP is beyond me.

For the same reason almost two thirds of gays in France vote for the right or radical right.
The political center is shifting so that the right and radical right can not like gays, but they can no longer re-institute the discriminations of the past either. The LGBTs of Britain/France being part of greater society, they also have other issues they care about, and as society moves rightward, so do they.
There is also a serious and understandable fear of immigration, particularly Muslim immigration, from the gay community in Europe, and that's bound to send some to the right. Though I would understand voting for the right or radical right for this issue in France, I don't see how one could vote for the Tories on this, as they don't strike me as anti-immigration in anything but rhetoric, and are certainly no defenders against conservative Islam, although perhaps more than the Labour Party that is true, but still no great defenders anyway.

Maybe that's true in France, but the Conservative Party in the UK would happily attempt to roll back LGBT protections, and Leadsom and May would clearly hope to do so. LGBT people who vote for far-right parties on the basis of their claims on Islam are clearly a little misled by those far-right parties who all clearly don't give a shit about protecting LGBT rights themselves.

[Olerand]

For the same reason almost two thirds of gays in France vote for the right or radical right.
The political center is shifting so that the right and radical right can not like gays, but they can no longer re-institute the discriminations of the past either. The LGBTs of Britain/France being part of greater society, they also have other issues they care about, and as society moves rightward, so do they.
There is also a serious and understandable fear of immigration, particularly Muslim immigration, from the gay community in Europe, and that's bound to send some to the right. Though I would understand voting for the right or radical right for this issue in France, I don't see how one could vote for the Tories on this, as they don't strike me as anti-immigration in anything but rhetoric, and are certainly no defenders against conservative Islam, although perhaps more than the Labour Party that is true, but still no great defenders anyway.

Maybe that's true in France, but the Conservative Party in the UK would happily attempt to roll back LGBT protections, and Leadsom and May would clearly hope to do so. LGBT people who vote for far-right parties on the basis of their claims on Islam are clearly a little misled by those far-right parties who all clearly don't give a shit about protecting LGBT rights themselves.

I don't think they would. A plurality, or even a majority would like to, but they won't, for the simple reason that they will not be able to sell this new anti-LGBT stance to modern Britain, nor to parliament.

I also disagree on the radical right, or at least the currently dominant faction amongst the radical right. The PVV in the Netherlands is for all intents and purposes, gay friendly. The FN is trying to move in the same direction, Florian Philippot, the FN's #2 and Marine's right-hand man is gay, so is Steeve Briois, another important member etc. The same movement for tolerance, if not support, can be seen in the FPO in Austria, DF in Denmark etc.

I believe UKIP is still behind on this issue, Britain being Britain, but I'm watching to see if UKIP survives if and when Brexit happens. For the life of me, I can't see why they should. So I'll judge the situation then.

[Divitaen]

Maybe that's true in France, but the Conservative Party in the UK would happily attempt to roll back LGBT protections, and Leadsom and May would clearly hope to do so. LGBT people who vote for far-right parties on the basis of their claims on Islam are clearly a little misled by those far-right parties who all clearly don't give a shit about protecting LGBT rights themselves.

I don't think they would. A plurality, or even a majority would like to, but they won't, for the simple reason that they will not be able to sell this new anti-LGBT stance to modern Britain, nor to parliament.

I also disagree on the radical right, or at least the currently dominant faction amongst the radical right. The PVV in the Netherlands is for all intents and purposes, gay friendly. The FN is trying to move in the same direction, Florian Philippot, the FN's #2 and Marine's right-hand man is gay, so is Steeve Briois, another important member etc. The same movement for tolerance, if not support, can be seen in the FPO in Austria, DF in Denmark etc.

I believe UKIP is still behind on this issue, Britain being Britain, but I'm watching to see if UKIP survives if and when Brexit happens. For the life of me, I can't see why they should. So I'll judge the situation then.

Maybe UKIP's homophobia is an exception, but I still find it upsetting that more and more LGBT people are voting for far-right parties across Europe. Its irrational, and obviously as far as I know even though people like Le Pen aren't exactly calling for same-sex marriage to be banned or anything, they haven't exactly championed strengthening enforcement of anti-discrimination laws or gay empowerment either.

EDIT: Okay just realised we probably shouldn't continue this conversation of far-right European politics cos it is probably a threadjack

[Olerand]

I don't think they would. A plurality, or even a majority would like to, but they won't, for the simple reason that they will not be able to sell this new anti-LGBT stance to modern Britain, nor to parliament.

I also disagree on the radical right, or at least the currently dominant faction amongst the radical right. The PVV in the Netherlands is for all intents and purposes, gay friendly. The FN is trying to move in the same direction, Florian Philippot, the FN's #2 and Marine's right-hand man is gay, so is Steeve Briois, another important member etc. The same movement for tolerance, if not support, can be seen in the FPO in Austria, DF in Denmark etc.

I believe UKIP is still behind on this issue, Britain being Britain, but I'm watching to see if UKIP survives if and when Brexit happens. For the life of me, I can't see why they should. So I'll judge the situation then.

Maybe UKIP's homophobia is an exception, but I still find it upsetting that more and more LGBT people are voting for far-right parties across Europe. Its irrational, and obviously as far as I know even though people like Le Pen aren't exactly calling for same-sex marriage to be banned or anything, they haven't exactly championed strengthening enforcement of anti-discrimination laws or gay empowerment either.

EDIT: Okay just realised we probably shouldn't continue this conversation of far-right European politics cos it is probably a threadjack

During the protests against same-sex marriage in 2013, Marine wisely stayed away, while allowing her more old-style conservative right-wing niece Marion (the FN's #3) to participate. Two birds with one stone.

I agree, this was about LGBTs voting for the Tories/UKIP in Britain, something that I comprehend less than French LGBTs voting for the right or radical right, or Dutch etc.

All in all, I think LGBT rights in Britain aren't going to see any great advancements in the short term, but will not see great regressions either.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

if there are so many it shouldn't be that hard to name them

That wasn't a rhetorical question Alyakia. Do you think all/almost all of the MPs who have voted against Corbyn are Blairites?

Alyakia and Souseiseki are the same poster?