UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

[Salandriagado]

have you considered there may, in actual fact, be more to things than money?

But the point of economy is money? We are discussing money? We are discussing how much money is in the economy? Yes, of course there are more things than money in life- there are assets, which can be turned into money.

No. Money is not the point of the economy. Money is a medium that facilitates transactions and the acquisition of desirable assets. It has absolutely no worth beyond that.

I am not arguing that we shouldn't have regulations- we should have some regulations which protect basic rights, health & safety, but nothing more.
I am not suggesting that the top jobs in this country are not dominated by private-independent educated students. My father went to Eton, my mother went to a very similar school; the Prime Minister, the fmr. Mayor of London, the Chancellor of the Exchequer & countless others in that post have, too. That, however, links with a different issue; to project children from poorer backgrounds into such careers, we should build many, many more grammar schools for the skilled & the intelligent. This will make a free market truly free. The state has a job- to keep the free market free, which it can, and does, do. What we are seeing, especially with the EU, is that regulations & laws are going towards thwarting corporate success rather than making it easier for people to enter the top parts of these companies.

And then you end up with the South Seas disaster. Again. Or Baring. Or the Mississippi Company. Or the Florida land bloom. Or Black Tuesday. Or...

[Questers]

By the way, nationalising the railways is not some loony left policy. It's supported by a majority of the country and a sizeable chunk of the conservative party.

[Souseiseki]

even thatcher thought privatizing the rail was dumb

[Dooom35796821595]

We'd appreciate it if you put that pic in a spoiler. Thanks.

[Questers]

Why? It's glorious.

[Questers]

What free market capitalism provides—I am not about to deny this—is a meritocracy in which any person can do quite well for themselves.

It's very difficult to do it without treading on other people, however.

The idea that free trade of any type is always, no matter what, a zero sum game is the main economic pillar of free enterprise politics. This is plainly disingenuous if you spend any amount of time in the deprived parts of either Britain, or the rest of the world.

There's nothing wrong with personal enterprise. Any fellow who wants to start his own business should be able to do it. Sometimes those people even become really great people who do a lot for the world, more than governments do, more than think tanks, people like Elon Musk. But they are very, very, very, very rare. And most of the real, tangible benefits that we have today that our grandparents didn't are not because of entrepreneurs but because of inventors, engineers, and scientists. Who cares about Steve Jobs: it was Alan Turing that invented the computer. Steve Jobs just made it look nice. Wide-area-networks were invented by the US state defence research agencies. etc.

And as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. When people become very wealthy, they like to spend their money. They expect a return on investment, so they buy politicians. Our current set of politicians -- and the last one (Tony Blair I mean, not Gordon Brown) were completely captured by wealth. This doesn't mean that there is some 'bankster' with puppet strings telling them what to do. They just stop thinking about ordinary people, the good of the country, and any kind of values because they are surrounded constantly by an environment where what matters is brief and fleeting, or rich and powerful.

You can't run a country based on gladiator-arena dogma. Fight to the death! Emperor Market will signal thumbs up or down with his invisible hand! You lose, you die!

[Dooom35796821595]

Why? It's glorious.

It's really not.

[Questers]

Why? It's glorious.

It's really not.

is it triggering you

[Dooom35796821595]

It's really not.

is it triggering you

No, it's just to big...and paint brushy.

[Hydesland]

The idea that free trade of any type is always, no matter what, a zero sum game is the main economic pillar of free enterprise politics.

Where did you get this idea, because literally the opposite is true in economics - even further, the fact that trade is not a zero sum game is the entire point.

Who cares about Steve Jobs: it was Alan Turing that invented the computer. Steve Jobs just made it look nice. Wide-area-networks were invented by the US state defence research agencies. etc.

I've no idea what broader point you're trying to make but you're going to have a tremendously difficult time if you try and argue private enterprise wasn't absolutely pinnacle to the creation of modern computing. Maybe start with Bell Labs, and then their offshoots into Silicon Valley.

[Questers]

The idea that free trade of any type is always, no matter what, a zero sum game is the main economic pillar of free enterprise politics.

Where did you get this idea, because literally the opposite is true in economics - even further, the fact that trade is not a zero sum game is the entire point.

Who cares about Steve Jobs: it was Alan Turing that invented the computer. Steve Jobs just made it look nice. Wide-area-networks were invented by the US state defence research agencies. etc.

I've no idea what broader point you're trying to make but you're going to have a tremendously difficult time if you try and argue private enterprise wasn't absolutely pinnacle to the creation of modern computing. Maybe start with Bell Labs, and then their offshoots into Silicon Valley.

yes I missed a negative with the zero sum game. Free marketeers usually maintain thay free trade is not a zero sum game i.e that two consenting people both necessarily benefit. (Or perceive that they benefit). I am saying this is untrue but I left the 'not' out

[The Liberated Territories]

It's worth noting that the robber baron capitalists in the US during the gilded age primarily made their money off of railroad monopolies. At the time the national ideology was the American school of capitalism, which believed in a sort of dirigisme - e.g. the creation of a single national market, unified by a high volume distribution system. Therefore the railroads in the US were entirely creatures of the state, from day one - the planning of railroads wasn't based on any free market system but a centrally planned system connecting the major cities, and primarily created via unskilled labor of foreign immigrants. The mass theft of property via eminent domain too made this system possible, at least in the east - in the west there was merely a tendency to place railroads over Native American reserves and to relocate Native Americans. Unsurprisingly, the railroad tycoons became filthy rich, and used their political clout to shut down strikes and lobby for protective tariffs against foreign competition.

http://beforeitsnews.com/libertarian/20 ... 54314.html

[Lamadia]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... Ug_8E1cWIA
Apparently Liverpool has the worse child tooth decay in Britain, worse than Manchester & Newcastle. Is this a political issue, and what should be done about it? We have a player here, Rutherford, from Liverpool, perhaps he could offer an insight into the issue?

Similarly, diseases such as heart disease (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 1273,d.ZGg) have a higher percentage in the North than here in the South. It ought to make an interesting discussion.

[Frank Zipper]

My, that is a big picture of Millie MacMillanface.

[FacistHamsters]

Congratulations to the royal family to recognising the divine rights of the latest member of the family. I expect Liz to abdicate in favour of the rightful ruler.

[Vassenor]

Congratulations to the royal family to recognising the divine rights of the latest member of the family. I expect Liz to abdicate in favour of the rightful ruler.

Out of Character forum.

[Philjia]

Australian charisma vacuum and Green Party leader will be visiting my school tomorrow.

She doesn't know what she's let herself in for. It's a good job she's left wing, otherwise she'd be really screwed.

[Napkiraly]

Congratulations to the royal family to recognising the divine rights of the latest member of the family. I expect Liz to abdicate in favour of the rightful ruler.

Out of Character forum.

I'm pretty sure they are being OOC? Or being as OOC as one can be, pretending to be a nation run by hamsters.

[The Nihilistic view]

I am not arguing that we shouldn't have regulations- we should have some regulations which protect basic rights, health & safety, but nothing more.
I am not suggesting that the top jobs in this country are not dominated by private-independent educated students. My father went to Eton, my mother went to a very similar school; the Prime Minister, the fmr. Mayor of London, the Chancellor of the Exchequer & countless others in that post have, too. That, however, links with a different issue; to project children from poorer backgrounds into such careers, we should build many, many more grammar schools for the skilled & the intelligent. This will make a free market truly free. The state has a job- to keep the free market free, which it can, and does, do. What we are seeing, especially with the EU, is that regulations & laws are going towards thwarting corporate success rather than making it easier for people to enter the top parts of these companies.

Then you're not a full libertarian then.

But even then, having hundreds more private grammar schools only works is the fees they ask for are actually low enough to allow people from poor backgrounds entry.

Assisted places.

[Angleter]

I am not arguing that we shouldn't have regulations- we should have some regulations which protect basic rights, health & safety, but nothing more.
I am not suggesting that the top jobs in this country are not dominated by private-independent educated students. My father went to Eton, my mother went to a very similar school; the Prime Minister, the fmr. Mayor of London, the Chancellor of the Exchequer & countless others in that post have, too. That, however, links with a different issue; to project children from poorer backgrounds into such careers, we should build many, many more grammar schools for the skilled & the intelligent. This will make a free market truly free. The state has a job- to keep the free market free, which it can, and does, do. What we are seeing, especially with the EU, is that regulations & laws are going towards thwarting corporate success rather than making it easier for people to enter the top parts of these companies.

Then you're not a full libertarian then.

But even then, having hundreds more private grammar schools only works is the fees they ask for are actually low enough to allow people from poor backgrounds entry.

Grammar schools aren't (usually) private.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Then you're not a full libertarian then.

But even then, having hundreds more private grammar schools only works is the fees they ask for are actually low enough to allow people from poor backgrounds entry.

Grammar schools aren't (usually) private.

True, although I believe we were discussing this in the context of totally private run education.

[Angleter]

Grammar schools aren't (usually) private.

True, although I believe we were discussing this in the context of totally private run education.

Ah, right. Apologies. Lamadia didn't quote anyone, so it was unclear.

[Souseiseki]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol ... video.html

oh god

this is so fucking stupid and the article is even worse look at this tabloid trash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYslEzHbpus

here is the actual video in case you make the mistake of believing the sun

[Lamadia]

Grammar schools aren't (usually) private.

True, although I believe we were discussing this in the context of totally private run education.

No, we were discussing grammar schools- selective state schools in the UK.

Now, another subject;

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjp-6qdsMzMAhWoBsAKHZBZBXEQqQIIJTAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F05%2F08%2Fsugar-content-of-fizzy-drink-listed-in-liverpool-as-city-bids-to%2F&usg=AFQjCNHp3N0QeXCZ8BHRFCihUg_8E1cWIA
Apparently Liverpool has the worse child tooth decay in Britain, worse than Manchester & Newcastle. Is this a political issue, and what should be done about it? We have a player here, Rutherford, from Liverpool, perhaps he could offer an insight into the issue?

Similarly, diseases such as heart disease (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 1273,d.ZGg) have a higher percentage in the North than here in the South. It ought to make an interesting discussion.

[Eastfield Lodge]

True, although I believe we were discussing this in the context of totally private run education.

No, we were discussing grammar schools- selective state schools in the UK.

Now, another subject;

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjp-6qdsMzMAhWoBsAKHZBZBXEQqQIIJTAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F05%2F08%2Fsugar-content-of-fizzy-drink-listed-in-liverpool-as-city-bids-to%2F&usg=AFQjCNHp3N0QeXCZ8BHRFCihUg_8E1cWIA
Apparently Liverpool has the worse child tooth decay in Britain, worse than Manchester & Newcastle. Is this a political issue, and what should be done about it? We have a player here, Rutherford, from Liverpool, perhaps he could offer an insight into the issue?

Similarly, diseases such as heart disease (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 1273,d.ZGg) have a higher percentage in the North than here in the South. It ought to make an interesting discussion.

A lot of the risk factors that drive heart disease (smoking, obesity and so on) are more prevalent in the working class, and one of the issues with public health measures is that it's much harder to target those populations than wealthier people.

There's generally a massive health inequality between the rich and the poor - there are these horrifying stats related to journeys along a particular tube line, where apparently every stop drops the area's life expectancy by 18 months. In Glasgow, there are areas just a mile or so apart where the difference in life expectancy is around 30 years (50s vs 80s).