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UK Politics Thread III: Thready McThreadface (+ Jo Cox)

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Which of the following would you prefer to be the next leader of the Conservative Party?

Andrea Leadsom
27
18%
Liam Fox
7
5%
Michael Gove
17
11%
Stephen Crabb
6
4%
Theresa May
38
25%
Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz
57
38%
 
Total votes : 152

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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:20 pm

Great Nepal wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
No prime minister is elected by the country. A GE is the election of mnay local representatives to carry out a party manifesto.

So what do you say to those who claimed EU was fundamentally undemocratic because their commissioners were unelected by the public, merely voted in by elected EU parliament?


I say party on Wayne.
The Trinity. Churchill, Johnson and Thatcher.

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Wolfmanne2
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Postby Wolfmanne2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:41 pm

Corbyn will probably win the NEC vote tomorrow. Only two of the CLP reps, the Young Labour rep, two of three PLP reps (if George Howarth has not replaced Dennis Skinner yet, in which case Skinner is still on), Glennis Willmott (MEP rep), Jon Ashworth, Keith Vaz ("THE MOST CORRUPT MINISTER IN RECENT YEARS"), James Asser, Tom Watson, the two Councillors (one might vote for Corbyn being on the ballot though) and the USDAW trade union rep are opposed to Corbyn. 17 is the magic number, assuming full turnout.

What the moderates are banking on is that some trade union reps are unable to get time off to attend or that some grow a pair and rebel (more likely to happen if a secret ballot is used). I'm not sure, but some Corbynists might also be under investigation by the compliance unit, so they may not be able to attend. Labour Party's rulebook is complicated.

EDIT: Two trade union reps are also on holiday apparently. 15 is the magic number now if they don't fly back quickly and considering the moderates in total number about 13, plus assuming that some other trade union reps are unable to attend (somewhat probable as many live outside London) or some rebel, they might just edge it. Wouldn't necessarily count on it.
Last edited by Wolfmanne2 on Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
ESFP
United in Labour! Jezbollah and Saint Tony together!


Mad hatters in jeans wrote:Yeah precipitating on everyone doesn't go down well usually. You seem patient enough to chat to us, i'm willing to count that as nice.

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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:46 pm

So basically the coup rests on whether the other side can be arsed to turn up for the most important internal party vote of the year? LAMO.

You seriously need a leader who will put the internal party workings in order. It's like they were designed by Conservatives to hamstring you. :bow:
The Trinity. Churchill, Johnson and Thatcher.

Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana , India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
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Wolfmanne2
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Postby Wolfmanne2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:49 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:So basically the coup rests on whether the other side can be arsed to turn up for the most important internal party vote of the year? LAMO.

You seriously need a leader who will put the internal party workings in order. It's like they were designed by Conservatives to hamstring you. :bow:

Well, what did you expect? It's the Labour Party :lol:.

I can imagine the hard left will try use procedure to stall it for as long as possible so that Union McUnionface from Unite the Union who is pushing the pedal to metal on the M25 can get there on time to vote.

EDIT: Honestly, they should televise it, it'll make the world see that we, the Labour Party, are a solid 10/10 on the prick scale.
Last edited by Wolfmanne2 on Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ESFP
United in Labour! Jezbollah and Saint Tony together!


Mad hatters in jeans wrote:Yeah precipitating on everyone doesn't go down well usually. You seem patient enough to chat to us, i'm willing to count that as nice.

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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:55 pm

Wolfmanne2 wrote:Corbyn will probably win the NEC vote tomorrow. Only two of the CLP reps, the Young Labour rep, two of three PLP reps (if George Howarth has not replaced Dennis Skinner yet, in which case Skinner is still on), Glennis Willmott (MEP rep), Jon Ashworth, Keith Vaz, James Asser, Tom Watson, the two Councillors (one might vote for Corbyn being on the ballot though) and the USDAW trade union rep are opposed to Corbyn. 17 is the magic number, assuming full turnout.

What the moderates are banking on is that some trade union reps are unable to get time off to attend or that some grow a pair and rebel (more likely to happen if a secret ballot is used). I'm not sure, but some Corbynists might also be under investigation by the compliance unit, so they may not be able to attend. Labour Party's rulebook is complicated.

EDIT: Two trade union reps are also on holiday apparently. 15 is the magic number now if they don't fly back quickly and considering the moderates in total number about 13, plus assuming that some other trade union reps are unable to attend (somewhat probable as many live outside London) or some rebel, they might just edge it. Wouldn't necessarily count on it.

Then the moderates stopped being moderate.

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Wolfmanne2
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Postby Wolfmanne2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:55 pm

Mad hatters in jeans wrote:
Wolfmanne2 wrote:Corbyn will probably win the NEC vote tomorrow. Only two of the CLP reps, the Young Labour rep, two of three PLP reps (if George Howarth has not replaced Dennis Skinner yet, in which case Skinner is still on), Glennis Willmott (MEP rep), Jon Ashworth, Keith Vaz, James Asser, Tom Watson, the two Councillors (one might vote for Corbyn being on the ballot though) and the USDAW trade union rep are opposed to Corbyn. 17 is the magic number, assuming full turnout.

What the moderates are banking on is that some trade union reps are unable to get time off to attend or that some grow a pair and rebel (more likely to happen if a secret ballot is used). I'm not sure, but some Corbynists might also be under investigation by the compliance unit, so they may not be able to attend. Labour Party's rulebook is complicated.

EDIT: Two trade union reps are also on holiday apparently. 15 is the magic number now if they don't fly back quickly and considering the moderates in total number about 13, plus assuming that some other trade union reps are unable to attend (somewhat probable as many live outside London) or some rebel, they might just edge it. Wouldn't necessarily count on it.

Then the moderates stopped being moderate.

It's rulebook friendly. I believe in upholding the rulebook. And trust me, you'd get worse shit at CLP level. Labour Party politics is brutal.

EDIT: The lowest of the low is easily Labour Students, though Young Labour come a close second, speaking as someone involved in the latter and who will be involved in the prior.
Last edited by Wolfmanne2 on Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ESFP
United in Labour! Jezbollah and Saint Tony together!


Mad hatters in jeans wrote:Yeah precipitating on everyone doesn't go down well usually. You seem patient enough to chat to us, i'm willing to count that as nice.

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Wolfmanne2
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Postby Wolfmanne2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:59 pm

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-sad-s ... tive-party

Also, Nihil and Lamadia, any perspective on this?
ESFP
United in Labour! Jezbollah and Saint Tony together!


Mad hatters in jeans wrote:Yeah precipitating on everyone doesn't go down well usually. You seem patient enough to chat to us, i'm willing to count that as nice.

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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:04 pm

Wolfmanne2 wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:So basically the coup rests on whether the other side can be arsed to turn up for the most important internal party vote of the year? LAMO.

You seriously need a leader who will put the internal party workings in order. It's like they were designed by Conservatives to hamstring you. :bow:

Well, what did you expect? It's the Labour Party :lol:.

I can imagine the hard left will try use procedure to stall it for as long as possible so that Union McUnionface from Unite the Union who is pushing the pedal to metal on the M25 can get there on time to vote.

EDIT: Honestly, they should televise it, it'll make the world see that we, the Labour Party, are a solid 10/10 on the prick scale.


It would make a great soap opera. It must be soul destroying sometimes to be part of. I have Corbyn's policies but really can't see what good it does to look like this. Surely any gain from getting rid of him is lost by hat is going on to do it.
The Trinity. Churchill, Johnson and Thatcher.

Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana , India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
PC=Economic L/R: 1.88: social Lib/Auth: 0.26

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Wolfmanne2
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Postby Wolfmanne2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:05 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Wolfmanne2 wrote:Well, what did you expect? It's the Labour Party :lol:.

I can imagine the hard left will try use procedure to stall it for as long as possible so that Union McUnionface from Unite the Union who is pushing the pedal to metal on the M25 can get there on time to vote.

EDIT: Honestly, they should televise it, it'll make the world see that we, the Labour Party, are a solid 10/10 on the prick scale.


It would make a great soap opera. It must be soul destroying sometimes to be part of. I have Corbyn's policies but really can't see what good it does to look like this. Surely any gain from getting rid of him is lost by hat is going on to do it.

In all honesty, there are a lot of nasty people involved in Labour. I'd like to think I'm one of the nice guys, but I'm not someone who gets triggered and storms out the room. So I probably don't have a soul.
Last edited by Wolfmanne2 on Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ESFP
United in Labour! Jezbollah and Saint Tony together!


Mad hatters in jeans wrote:Yeah precipitating on everyone doesn't go down well usually. You seem patient enough to chat to us, i'm willing to count that as nice.

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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:12 pm

Wolfmanne2 wrote:http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-sad-sorry-state-of-the-conservative-party

Also, Nihil and Lamadia, any perspective on this?


Somebody has not got over the result and can't separate political reality from their own wet dreams?
The Trinity. Churchill, Johnson and Thatcher.

Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana , India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
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Britanno 2
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Postby Britanno 2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:20 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:Somebody has not got over the result and can't separate political reality from their own wet dreams?

Why does speaking out about being opposed to the leave vote make every Brexiter automatically see them as butthurt over the result?
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:42 pm

Britanno 2 wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:Somebody has not got over the result and can't separate political reality from their own wet dreams?

Why does speaking out about being opposed to the leave vote make every Brexiter automatically see them as butthurt over the result?


If you don't understand why people voted the way they did or you just don't want to see it or you just ignore it like this fellow. Yes it does, there are plenty of remaining voters who have taken it on the chin but not this guy.

There is a difference between trying to change people's minds to be against brexit and actively lobbying to implement Brexit in a way that does not really adress the two main reasons people voted leave. This guy is the latter, can't realise the folly in what he writes.
The Trinity. Churchill, Johnson and Thatcher.

Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana , India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:11 pm

Wolfmanne2 wrote:
Mad hatters in jeans wrote:Then the moderates stopped being moderate.

It's rulebook friendly. I believe in upholding the rulebook. And trust me, you'd get worse shit at CLP level. Labour Party politics is brutal.

EDIT: The lowest of the low is easily Labour Students, though Young Labour come a close second, speaking as someone involved in the latter and who will be involved in the prior.

Has it always been cutthroat or is this a more recent development?

Wolfmanne2 wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
It would make a great soap opera. It must be soul destroying sometimes to be part of. I have Corbyn's policies but really can't see what good it does to look like this. Surely any gain from getting rid of him is lost by hat is going on to do it.

In all honesty, there are a lot of nasty people involved in Labour. I'd like to think I'm one of the nice guys, but I'm not someone who gets triggered and storms out the room. So I probably don't have a soul.

Yeah precipitating on everyone doesn't go down well usually.
You seem patient enough to chat to us, i'm willing to count that as nice.

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Britanno 2 wrote:Why does speaking out about being opposed to the leave vote make every Brexiter automatically see them as butthurt over the result?


If you don't understand why people voted the way they did or you just don't want to see it or you just ignore it like this fellow. Yes it does, there are plenty of remaining voters who have taken it on the chin but not this guy.

There is a difference between trying to change people's minds to be against brexit and actively lobbying to implement Brexit in a way that does not really adress the two main reasons people voted leave. This guy is the latter, can't realise the folly in what he writes.

So you're saying it's better to figure out a realistic plan with what we have than complaining? Can't we do both?

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Irona
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Postby Irona » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:13 pm

Why wouldn't May call an early election? At this point Labours screwed regardless of whether Corbyn stays

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Freefall11111
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Postby Freefall11111 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:14 pm

Irona wrote:Why wouldn't May call an early election? At this point Labours screwed regardless of whether Corbyn stays

It's an unnecessary risk.

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Irona
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Postby Irona » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:32 pm

Freefall11111 wrote:
Irona wrote:Why wouldn't May call an early election? At this point Labours screwed regardless of whether Corbyn stays

It's an unnecessary risk.

Really? They have a small majority and given the state of the Labour Party it's hardly likely that will go anywhere but up. Plus labour being crushed again would only decrease the effectivness of it's opposition when it inevitably implodes again

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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:33 pm

Irona wrote:
Freefall11111 wrote:It's an unnecessary risk.

Really? They have a small majority and given the state of the Labour Party it's hardly likely that will go anywhere but up. Plus labour being crushed again would only decrease the effectivness of it's opposition when it inevitably implodes again


if there's one thing cameron and boris have taught us it is that taking a big risk because there's no way it could backfire unexpectedly and destroy your career is totes cool and safe idea and you should totally do it
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Irona
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Postby Irona » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:42 pm

Souseiseki wrote:
Irona wrote:Really? They have a small majority and given the state of the Labour Party it's hardly likely that will go anywhere but up. Plus labour being crushed again would only decrease the effectivness of it's opposition when it inevitably implodes again


if there's one thing cameron and boris have taught us it is that taking a big risk because there's no way it could backfire unexpectedly and destroy your career is totes cool and safe idea and you should totally do it

I'm still not sure Boris is done yet.

That probably is her thinking, but the way the Labour Party is now. It's horrific.

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Marcurix
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Postby Marcurix » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:49 pm

Irona wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
if there's one thing cameron and boris have taught us it is that taking a big risk because there's no way it could backfire unexpectedly and destroy your career is totes cool and safe idea and you should totally do it

I'm still not sure Boris is done yet.

That probably is her thinking, but the way the Labour Party is now. It's horrific.


Eh. Honestly, everything is a mess right now to the point the Labour leader contest doesn't hold my interest.all that much.
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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:04 am

Marcurix wrote:
Irona wrote:I'm still not sure Boris is done yet.

That probably is her thinking, but the way the Labour Party is now. It's horrific.


Eh. Honestly, everything is a mess right now to the point the Labour leader contest doesn't hold my interest.all that much.

I arrive at this conclusion as well sometimes. This petty squabbling seems like a sideshow.

These problems will just resurface again in future with different leading parties and people, the electorate will continue to devour itself after every vote and referendum. Finger pointing and blame game will fire up and some minority group is going to get a kicking somewhere.

Unless some kind of radical reform occurs in Westminster and politics on a global scale I don't feel particularly optimistic about things.

But who knows what the future holds. Provided we get through the oncoming global warming extinction event things could shake up a lot.

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:10 am

Souseiseki wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
No prime minister is elected by the country. A GE is the election of mnay local representatives to carry out a party manifesto.


how do you feel about how the media and conservatives (like may) slammed gordon brown as "unelected" and not having a "democratic mandate"?

That's ENTIRELY different because Brown, just like Juncker, is, uhm ... A commie! Yes! Commies can't have a democratic mandate of course! And they're commies because, urr... OI LOOK OVER THERE, MIGRANTS SWARMING OVER THE WHITE CLIFFS IT'S THE EU'S FAULT!
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:13 am

Geilinor wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
No prime minister is elected by the country. A GE is the election of mnay local representatives to carry out a party manifesto.

No European commission is elected by the public. A European commission is the outcome of appointments by elected national governments.

Just like the current British cabinet wasn't, and the next won't even come vaguely from an election.

Still the "democratic deficit" argument somehow fails to apply to Britain. Double standards? Naaah, can't be.
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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:23 am

Risottia wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
how do you feel about how the media and conservatives (like may) slammed gordon brown as "unelected" and not having a "democratic mandate"?

That's ENTIRELY different because Brown, just like Juncker, is, uhm ... A commie! Yes! Commies can't have a democratic mandate of course! And they're commies because, urr... OI LOOK OVER THERE, MIGRANTS SWARMING OVER THE WHITE CLIFFS IT'S THE EU'S FAULT!

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the voting system down?
E U, E U

Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the immigrants under wraps?
E U, E U

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Ben Cumberbatch a star?
E U, E U

Who robs cavefish of their sight?
Who rigs every Bafta night?
E U!
E U!!!

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Frank Zipper
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Postby Frank Zipper » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:25 am

Looking forward to finding out who is in and out when May announces her cabinet. I suspect she won't make many changes at first. She will have to create a role to handle Brexit, and give it to a pro-Brexit person (so possibly Leadsom?) and put someone in as Home Secretary (really hoping it isn't Grayling).

I think she is going to have a difficult winter with rising food prices, people feeling the effect of the low pound on the cost of Christmas, making everything seem a bit grim. Probably be some more industrial action to add to the mix.
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Mad hatters in jeans
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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:31 am

Frank Zipper wrote:Looking forward to finding out who is in and out when May announces her cabinet. I suspect she won't make many changes at first. She will have to create a role to handle Brexit, and give it to a pro-Brexit person (so possibly Leadsom?) and put someone in as Home Secretary (really hoping it isn't Grayling).

I think she is going to have a difficult winter with rising food prices, people feeling the effect of the low pound on the cost of Christmas, making everything seem a bit grim. Probably be some more industrial action to add to the mix.

The winter of our discontent.

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