The Jewish Situation

[Souseiseki]

how much oppression? what if they only ban your language? do you get a state then? do some groups get condemned to cultural death because they're just not big enough to deserve protection?

How much oppression? How about:

The inquisition
The crusades
Slavery
Being exiled by dozens of nations
Being placed as a bottom caste
More slavery
The holocaust
hundreds of pogroms
Even more slavery

Now make that happen non-stop for the next 3,500 years. I think they deserve a bit of slack by now

i hope you're not referring to the exodus

that also doesn't answer the question

[Zarbifel]

That's why Israel was originally not supposed to be a religious country, it just became that way after the Holocaust when massive numbers of Orthodox from central and eastern Europe immigrated.

Even if Israel is a religious country, we still aren't supposed to repopulate the Land during the divinely decreed exile. Whether Israel seems to be implementing religious laws or not, that doesn't make a difference.

Most of us aren't orthodox you know. That's why we actually get stuff done for our people.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Jews are already twice the size of the Palestinian population anyways. The overwhelming minority doesn't get to control the nation dude. They should get an equal say, but it ceased to be Palestine in 1948.

There only a minority because they've been killed. And Palestine still exists in the form of West Bank and Gaza and in their denonym.

And also Palestine must get all of it's land back.

[Yaramaqui]

The Jews can stay in Palestine, but they shouldn't be stealing Palestinian land, like America stole Native American land. Palestine must keep their land, but let the Jews stay. If Jews want Jewish law, cool, then we can have Sharia and Halakhah (I hope that's right). But if both want Democracy, then ok. But Palestine stays Palestine.

Jews are already twice the size of the Palestinian population anyways. The overwhelming minority doesn't get to control the nation dude. They should get an equal say, but it ceased to be Palestine in 1948.

Well, if you include Gaza and the West Bank which are part of the borders of the Historical Land of Israel (to an extent), it is almost 50-50. The amount of control Israel has on the West Bank and even Gaza say otherwise. Not to mention the fact that the Palestinian population will soon become the majority in the whole area if you consider demographics.

[Zarbifel]

How much oppression? How about:

The inquisition
The crusades
Slavery
Being exiled by dozens of nations
Being placed as a bottom caste
More slavery
The holocaust
hundreds of pogroms
Even more slavery

Now make that happen non-stop for the next 3,500 years. I think they deserve a bit of slack by now

i hope you're not referring to the exodus

that also doesn't answer the question

You are right, the exodus really has no actual evidence to support it.

[Yaramaqui]

Even if Israel is a religious country, we still aren't supposed to repopulate the Land during the divinely decreed exile. Whether Israel seems to be implementing religious laws or not, that doesn't make a difference.

Most of us aren't orthodox you know. That's why we actually get stuff done for our people.

לק”י
The only reason we have been preserved as a nation is because of adherence to the Torah. If you are under the notion that Orthodox Jews cannot do anything for the Jewish people, you are gravely mistaken. If you are under the notion that we cannot have anything modern, that is also a big mistake.

[Republic of the Cristo]

How much oppression? How about:

The inquisition
The crusades
Slavery
Being exiled by dozens of nations
Being placed as a bottom caste
More slavery
The holocaust
hundreds of pogroms
Even more slavery

Now make that happen non-stop for the next 3,500 years. I think they deserve a bit of slack by now

i hope you're not referring to the exodus

that also doesn't answer the question

Why not exodus, that was a pretty big thing for them. And you asked how much oppression is need for a state to be made, I said that being the whipping boy for the last 3,500 years should give them the right to form a state. I would suppose however, that if a culture survives near destruction for a centaury or more, that they should have the right to form a state.

[MERIZoC]

Er, American Jews have it quite easy, especially in comparison to a: jews in other nations, and b: others in America.

[Crockerland]

There only a minority because they've been killed. And Palestine still exists in the form of West Bank and Gaza and in their denonym.

And also Palestine must get all of it's land back.

I agree, give the half of the mandate for Arabs to the Arabs (Jordan) and all of the half for the Jews (Israel (inc. Gaza, Judea and Samaria)) to the Jews.

[Nerotysia]

The crusades

Um what? I don't recall an anti-Jewish crusade.

Not to nitpick, but you don't have to claim every single oppression ever for Judaism.

[Yaramaqui]

Er, American Jews have it quite easy, especially in comparison to a: jews in other nations, and b: others in America.

That is very true.

[House of Judah]

Jews are cool. But anybody who supports this Zionist state that is stealing Palestinian land, killing the native population and oppressing them is condoning genocide. The Zionist State reminds me of America, past and present. #FREEPALESTINE! I hope I didn't offend anyone.

And what do you mean by "#FREEPALESTINE"? End the Jewish character of Israel? That's an unacceptable solution. The Jews once again become a people without a homeland and Palestinians (likely with a understandable axe to grind) become the majority, placing the Israeli Jews in potential peril.

End the occupation? I'd love to get behind that, though it needs to be a little better thought out than just getting Israel out. There's no effective infrastructure and no economy. If Israel pulled out completely today, Palestine would be a failed state.

I say don't free Palestine, make a temporary two-state confederation that lasts for ten-twenty years to build up the Palestinian state so that it can stand separate from Israel. Then free Palestine.

[Republic of the Cristo]

The crusades

Um what? I don't recall an anti-Jewish crusade.

Not to nitpick, but you don't have to claim every single oppression ever for Judaism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... e_Crusades

[Zarbifel]

Most of us aren't orthodox you know. That's why we actually get stuff done for our people.

לק”י
The only reason we have been preserved as a nation is because of adherence to the Torah. If you are under the notion that Orthodox Jews cannot do anything for the Jewish people, you are gravely mistaken. If you are under the notion that we cannot have anything modern, that is also a big mistake.

Yeah right dude. It was the influx of modern and now reformed Jews that make and keep Israel a modern and successful nation. I know the last part of the sentence dude, there are many orthodox populations near my home in Cleveland.

[Yaramaqui]

i hope you're not referring to the exodus

that also doesn't answer the question

You are right, the exodus really has no actual evidence to support it.

לק”י
Regardless on whether it happened or not, it doesn't make much of a difference to Judaism.

[Crockerland]

Jews are cool. But anybody who supports this Zionist state that is stealing Palestinian land, killing the native population and oppressing them is condoning genocide. The Zionist State reminds me of America, past and present. #FREEPALESTINE! I hope I didn't offend anyone.

And what do you mean by "#FREEPALESTINE"? End the Jewish character of Israel? That's an unacceptable solution. The Jews once again become a people without a homeland and Palestinians (likely with a understandable axe to grind) become the majority, placing the Israeli Jews in potential peril.

End the occupation? I'd love to get behind that, though it needs to be a little better thought out than just getting Israel out. There's no effective infrastructure and no economy. If Israel pulled out completely today, Palestine would be a failed state.

I say don't free Palestine, make a temporary two-state confederation that lasts for ten-twenty years to build up the Palestinian state so that it can stand separate from Israel. Then free Palestine.

Palestine should stop denying offers for peace and a two-state solution if it wants peace and a two-state solution so badly. El-Amin obviously has no grasp of the history of the region based on his moronic assertion that the Palestinian invaders are somehow the native population.

[Souseiseki]

And what do you mean by "#FREEPALESTINE"? End the Jewish character of Israel? That's an unacceptable solution. The Jews once again become a people without a homeland and Palestinians (likely with a understandable axe to grind) become the majority, placing the Israeli Jews in potential peril.

End the occupation? I'd love to get behind that, though it needs to be a little better thought out than just getting Israel out. There's no effective infrastructure and no economy. If Israel pulled out completely today, Palestine would be a failed state.

I say don't free Palestine, make a temporary two-state confederation that lasts for ten-twenty years to build up the Palestinian state so that it can stand separate from Israel. Then free Palestine.

Palestine should stop denying offers for peace and a two-state solution if it wants peace and a two-state solution so badly. El-Amin obviously has no grasp of the history of the region based on his moronic assertion that the Palestinian invaders are somehow the native population.

all the peace deals have been garbage and netanhayu has repeatedly stated he will never accept a two-state solution :-)

e: oh and he bragged about tanking one of the previous deals when he thought the cameras were off

[Yaramaqui]

לק”י
The only reason we have been preserved as a nation is because of adherence to the Torah. If you are under the notion that Orthodox Jews cannot do anything for the Jewish people, you are gravely mistaken. If you are under the notion that we cannot have anything modern, that is also a big mistake.

Yeah right dude. It was the influx of modern and now reformed Jews that make and keep Israel a modern and successful nation. I know the last part of the sentence dude, there are many orthodox populations near my home in Cleveland.

If there was no Torah, there would be no Jewish people. That's simply how it is. And just because the State of Israel seems successful doesn't mean what was truly meant to be. Sure it may seem to be excelling, but another group of people are paying the price for it.

[Sanctissima]

how much oppression? what if they only ban your language? do you get a state then? do some groups get condemned to cultural death because they're just not big enough to deserve protection?

How much oppression? How about:

The inquisition
The crusades
Slavery
Being exiled by dozens of nations
Being placed as a bottom caste
More slavery
The holocaust
hundreds of pogroms
Even more slavery

Now make that happen non-stop for the next 3,500 years. I think they deserve a bit of slack by now

It's a bit of an odd conclusion to go from "Jews are historically horribly oppressed" to "so let's give them their own country". Oppression alone does not give an ethnic group, let alone a religious one, the right to their own country. Much less when the land of that new country is populated by people who are neither ethnically nor religiously Jewish.

Regardless, Israel already exists, and what's done is done. Still though, historical oppression does not give a group the right to oppress another group, particularly when the latter is entirely unrelated to the oppression of the former. You don't get to play Hitler just because you were on his kill list.

[Souseiseki]

You are right, the exodus really has no actual evidence to support it.

לק”י
Regardless on whether it happened or not, it doesn't make much of a difference to Judaism.

but when we are talking about history it makes a fairly large difference

[Saiwania]

Zionism is awesome, it is the people who're against Israel which are severely in error. They have no idea as to the repercussions of Israel ceasing to exist in the middle east. If the Palestinians are allowed to have their way, it would devolve into a Muslim fundamentalist state which will export Jihad being that they'll be run by Hamas. It is better for Israel, the only modern and developed bastion of civilization in the region to hold onto their nation and never surrender. Not one step back. Israel shall never ever be Arab just as the Kurile Islands will never be Japanese. They've lost what they had for good. And when the Islamic nations pick another fight with Israel, they shall lose more when Israel completely overruns and smashes them in battle.

[Zarbifel]

Yeah right dude. It was the influx of modern and now reformed Jews that make and keep Israel a modern and successful nation. I know the last part of the sentence dude, there are many orthodox populations near my home in Cleveland.

If there was no Torah, there would be no Jewish people. That's simply how it is. And just because the State of Israel seems successful doesn't mean what was truly meant to be. Sure it may seem to be excelling, but another group of people are paying the price for it.

That doesn't mean the Torah actually preserves us. Give me some direct evidence in how adhering to the Torah "preserved' us in actual history please.

[Yaramaqui]

לק”י
The only reason we have been preserved as a nation is because of adherence to the Torah. If you are under the notion that Orthodox Jews cannot do anything for the Jewish people, you are gravely mistaken. If you are under the notion that we cannot have anything modern, that is also a big mistake.

Yeah right dude. It was the influx of modern and now reformed Jews that make and keep Israel a modern and successful nation. I know the last part of the sentence dude, there are many orthodox populations near my home in Cleveland.

Orthodox Jews who truly look and adhere to Torah would know why the State of Israel goes contrary to the principles of Judaism. Just because we have tradition, that does not make us backward. Not all of us are just going to be studying Torah for our whole lives in a Yeshiva.

[Souseiseki]

]being that they'll be run by Hamas.

you know that hamas only runs half, right?

[Scroobland]

Personally, I think that while there should be a Jewish nation in the world, Palestine has a right to exist as well.