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What should be the next title of the Libertarian Discussion Thread?

Poll ended at Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:05 pm

Libertarian Discussion Thread II: Atlas Hugged
4
14%
Libertarian Discussion Thread II: Would You Kindly?
7
25%
Libertarian Discussion Thread II: Recreational Nukes
13
46%
Libertarian Discussion Thread II: A Man Chooses, A Slave Obeys
4
14%
Other option (say in thread)
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 28

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Stormaen
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Stormaen » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:20 pm

Aclion wrote:
Greater Istanistan wrote:I feel as though the Libertarians really need wins at the state level - Representatives, Senators, and even a Governor - if they want to be considered. It's a stepping-stone approach, and building upwards from below provides a solid platform. That being said, if this Presidential run goes well I could see parties like the Greens and Libertarians picking up a lot of support and attention. Although one can't get too hopeful - Jill Stein was illegally detained for trying to participate in a debate...

This. And as cynical as it sounds, if you want to do well in elections consistently you need a need a say in the redistricting and election process. That requires a presence in the state legislature.

This is why redistricting ought to be independently done. When two big parties can rig the system to their advantage, is it really a democracy?
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:31 pm

Stormaen wrote:I sincerely think Johnson offers another path. He's the type of Republican that could make inroads into places like New England (NH) or even the Pacific Northwest (OR).

Reee

Stormaen wrote:Realistically, he's not going to win any states, etc. but hopefully, he makes a breakthrough and draws in a big share of the vote. I'd love it if he won similar numbers to Ross Perot in the 90s, but - again, realistically - it'll be great if he can just double the Libertarian vote base to 2%.

At the very least I hope he'll drag both parties to be more libertarian.

Stormaen wrote:
Aclion wrote:This. And as cynical as it sounds, if you want to do well in elections consistently you need a need a say in the redistricting and election process. That requires a presence in the state legislature.

This is why redistricting ought to be independently done. When two big parties can rig the system to their advantage, is it really a democracy?

Making the process "independent" doesn't
Last edited by Aclion on Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Urmanian
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Postby Urmanian » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:42 am

I was summoned.
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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:58 am

I've been looking to join a politcal party for awhile, and I want to like the Libertarian Party, but it seems a bit extreme, especially on immigration.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:55 am

Nordengrund wrote:I've been looking to join a politcal party for awhile, and I want to like the Libertarian Party, but it seems a bit extreme, especially on immigration.

In my experience libertarians seem to run the gamut on immigration.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Zurkerx
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Postby Zurkerx » Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:33 am

So what does everyone think of TPP here and free trade in general? Some say it brings great benefits for developing nations. Others say it hurts the /lower/middle class. Surprisingly, all of the Libertarian candidates to my knowledge actually oppose TPP.
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The Liberated Territories
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Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:49 pm

Stormaen wrote:As evidenced in my sig, I'm a Johnson supporter.

However, being British, I'll have no vote. Whilst some might say that this election won't affect the UK, it will. What the US does affects everything. :roll:

Currently, it's hawkish Hillary vs terrible Trump. The US is being asked which it least hates and vote for that. I sincerely think Johnson offers another path. He's the type of Republican that could make inroads into places like New England (NH) or even the Pacific Northwest (OR).

Realistically, he's not going to win any states, etc. but hopefully, he makes a breakthrough and draws in a big share of the vote. I'd love it if he won similar numbers to Ross Perot in the 90s, but - again, realistically - it'll be great if he can just double the Libertarian vote base to 2%.


Well, there's always faithless electors! A faithless elector actually cast a vote for the Libertarian Party in 1972. If Trump wins the RNC, there could potentially be some faithless electors voting across party lines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

Zurkerx wrote:So what does everyone think of TPP here and free trade in general? Some say it brings great benefits for developing nations. Others say it hurts the /lower/middle class. Surprisingly, all of the Libertarian candidates to my knowledge actually oppose TPP.


Why is it surprising? The TPP isn't free trade at all, but rather a list of special privileges for some corporations.

https://fee.org/articles/why-managed-tr ... ree-trade/
Last edited by The Liberated Territories on Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:52 pm

Zurkerx wrote:So what does everyone think of TPP here and free trade in general? Some say it brings great benefits for developing nations. Others say it hurts the /lower/middle class. Surprisingly, all of the Libertarian candidates to my knowledge actually oppose TPP.

Yeah, it's corporatism to them.

Cause I guess lowering our tariffs and hoping other countries do so out of goodwill is a solid strategy.

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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:57 pm

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-tr ... 2015-10-05

Why is it so secretive? What is so secretive about free trade? Furthermore, there is more in the TPP that goes against the principles of free trade then for it, like tighter intellectual property laws that go beyond borders, much of it is meant to merely increase and defend the profits of corporations than promote "free trade" which is why libertarians should oppose it. It's crony capitalism, plain and simple.
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Fanosolia
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Postby Fanosolia » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:07 pm

Nationalist Gold Union wrote:What's everyone's opinion on private businesses refusing service to certain groups of people?

I personally don't like it but honestly a person isn't entitled to somebody else's product or service, so a businesses owner naturally shouldn't have to sell to them if they don't want to.


I hope no one minds me weighing in despite being a lurker this whole time and now that the thread's on TPP. Okay like most here, obviously I don't like it. I think most reasonable people would think the same. Now respect libertarian direct actions from something as small as "let's not give money to the racist business" to full out protests (though I guess you need to be libertarian to do those, just I've noticed libertarians are the most vocal about taking this sort of action). But I've been thinking and thinking. I've come to the conclusion that, at least for me, it depends on the service/business.

This is mostly in regards to storefronts. I have a problem with denying someone the use of hospital, or school, or buying anything from drink of soda to a gun based on race, sex, or even religion (because that sometimes gets conflated with race). Though I think I have if I have a problem with that being applied to commission work. Now why am I against applying those sorts of laws to that in particular because it's a request that's usually outside of the store's stock (or it could just be an artist). Commissions usually have rules about what could be commissioned, and I wouldn't be surprised if this included the persons/business to make something related political leanings/statements or some moral ground thing. Unfortunately, that means... this includes cakes (you know the kind I mean). That doesn't sit with me well if I'm being honest, but I don't think I can make an exception for one type of product.

Also, I don't think I have to add personal transactions (ie garage sale or online trades like on Kijiji) are next to impossible to regulate in such a way. I'm sure that wouldn't stop people from trying to do so, but I think in those situations best not to intervene unless some other concern pops up like harassment after the attempt of sale.

Let me know if that seems a bit arbitrary to make that distinction, if I'm on a slippy slope here, or hell if I'm completely off base because I'm not even sure... I've just been thinking about that lately.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:44 pm

Fanosolia wrote:
Nationalist Gold Union wrote:What's everyone's opinion on private businesses refusing service to certain groups of people?

I personally don't like it but honestly a person isn't entitled to somebody else's product or service, so a businesses owner naturally shouldn't have to sell to them if they don't want to.


I hope no one minds me weighing in despite being a lurker this whole time and now that the thread's on TPP. Okay like most here, obviously I don't like it. I think most reasonable people would think the same. Now respect libertarian direct actions from something as small as "let's not give money to the racist business" to full out protests (though I guess you need to be libertarian to do those, just I've noticed libertarians are the most vocal about taking this sort of action). But I've been thinking and thinking. I've come to the conclusion that, at least for me, it depends on the service/business.

This is mostly in regards to storefronts. I have a problem with denying someone the use of hospital, or school, or buying anything from drink of soda to a gun based on race, sex, or even religion (because that sometimes gets conflated with race). Though I think I have if I have a problem with that being applied to commission work. Now why am I against applying those sorts of laws to that in particular because it's a request that's usually outside of the store's stock (or it could just be an artist). Commissions usually have rules about what could be commissioned, and I wouldn't be surprised if this included the persons/business to make something related political leanings/statements or some moral ground thing. Unfortunately, that means... this includes cakes (you know the kind I mean). That doesn't sit with me well if I'm being honest, but I don't think I can make an exception for one type of product.

Also, I don't think I have to add personal transactions (ie garage sale or online trades like on Kijiji) are next to impossible to regulate in such a way. I'm sure that wouldn't stop people from trying to do so, but I think in those situations best not to intervene unless some other concern pops up like harassment after the attempt of sale.

Let me know if that seems a bit arbitrary to make that distinction, if I'm on a slippy slope here, or hell if I'm completely off base because I'm not even sure... I've just been thinking about that lately.


Should a Muslim baker refuse to bake a homosexual a cake with a penis on it because it's "against their religion?" Should Nazi customers force Jewish bakers to make them nazi cakes? If people should be treated under the law equally, then we need to stop trying to create a million laws to satisfy the complex nature of discrimination. Almost all economic activities will involve discrimination in one way or another, as people vary in their qualifications and abilities. A prestigious college may only admit students with high grades, but because some people get low grades due to circumstances beyond their control doesn't mean there should be a law forcing all colleges to accept students with low grades (personally, I think there needs to be education reform away from the grades model since we are usually talking about public schools and private schools that are forced to accept the same standards.) There's a point where the complex nature of privilege and discrimination cannot be addressed by the government, but needs to be addressed at a societal level instead.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol ... tion-laws/
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:04 am

Zurkerx wrote:So what does everyone think of TPP here and free trade in general? Some say it brings great benefits for developing nations. Others say it hurts the /lower/middle class. Surprisingly, all of the Libertarian candidates to my knowledge actually oppose TPP.

TPP is a free trade act in name only.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Fanosolia
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Postby Fanosolia » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:40 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Fanosolia wrote:
I hope no one minds me weighing in despite being a lurker this whole time and now that the thread's on TPP. Okay like most here, obviously I don't like it. I think most reasonable people would think the same. Now respect libertarian direct actions from something as small as "let's not give money to the racist business" to full out protests (though I guess you need to be libertarian to do those, just I've noticed libertarians are the most vocal about taking this sort of action). But I've been thinking and thinking. I've come to the conclusion that, at least for me, it depends on the service/business.

This is mostly in regards to storefronts. I have a problem with denying someone the use of hospital, or school, or buying anything from drink of soda to a gun based on race, sex, or even religion (because that sometimes gets conflated with race). Though I think I have if I have a problem with that being applied to commission work. Now why am I against applying those sorts of laws to that in particular because it's a request that's usually outside of the store's stock (or it could just be an artist). Commissions usually have rules about what could be commissioned, and I wouldn't be surprised if this included the persons/business to make something related political leanings/statements or some moral ground thing. Unfortunately, that means... this includes cakes (you know the kind I mean). That doesn't sit with me well if I'm being honest, but I don't think I can make an exception for one type of product.

Also, I don't think I have to add personal transactions (ie garage sale or online trades like on Kijiji) are next to impossible to regulate in such a way. I'm sure that wouldn't stop people from trying to do so, but I think in those situations best not to intervene unless some other concern pops up like harassment after the attempt of sale.

Let me know if that seems a bit arbitrary to make that distinction, if I'm on a slippy slope here, or hell if I'm completely off base because I'm not even sure... I've just been thinking about that lately.


Should a Muslim baker refuse to bake a homosexual a cake with a penis on it because it's "against their religion?" Should Nazi customers force Jewish bakers to make them nazi cakes? If people should be treated under the law equally, then we need to stop trying to create a million laws to satisfy the complex nature of discrimination. Almost all economic activities will involve discrimination in one way or another, as people vary in their qualifications and abilities. A prestigious college may only admit students with high grades, but because some people get low grades due to circumstances beyond their control doesn't mean there should be a law forcing all colleges to accept students with low grades (personally, I think there needs to be education reform away from the grades model since we are usually talking about public schools and private schools that are forced to accept the same standards.) There's a point where the complex nature of privilege and discrimination cannot be addressed by the government, but needs to be addressed at a societal level instead.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol ... tion-laws/


I was going to retort (just before reading your article) by saying something along the lines of: "no one would seriously try to claim discrimination on grounds of requirements of the job/course", then I remember people on the news station I listen to covering stories on how people are trying to claim discrimination on piercings on their job and language barriers to a political course so that's a lie. What interests me is at the bottom of the article: "Libertarians, however, are often willing to make certain exceptions to their opposition to antidiscrimination laws, so long as they can identify an appropriate limiting principle." What's this limiting principle? Does Gary Johnson use it?

Also if you're looking for an answer to that question (assuming it wasn't rhetorical): that's the reason I have problem with "commission like work" (which I'll admit... I poorly described but it does include the nebulous cakes). Say Christian Heritage Party (because I don't want to be redundant by saying nazi again :p ) asks me to make them a new logo or some campaign ad and refuse them because I'm far from a supporter of them. Would they then have a case of discrimination on me if for some reason the suspected that? That's the fear that I had when I stopped and thought about it.
Last edited by Fanosolia on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:56 am

What you are trying to articulate here is called the "harm principle," as formulated by John Stuart Mill, which is a precursor to the libertarian non-aggression principle: "That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others." The definition of what causes "harm" can vary from depending who you ask, but I think Gary Johnson was at least trying to channel that idea when he said that discrimination against say a small shop owner can have wider ramifications. Of course this argument can also be countered as per the "Nazi cakes" example given in the debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_principle

Probably not, I don't think there are any statutes forcing you to do business with people who you oppose ideologically. Religious maybe although that's already a murky area, one can claim religion as a defense against ideological disagreements.

The Canadian Libertarian Party used to have a retarded logo and I'm glad they changed it to something actually...libertarianish. CHP logo is fine.
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Fanosolia
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Postby Fanosolia » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:14 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:What you are trying to articulate here is called the "harm principle," as formulated by John Stuart Mill, which is a precursor to the libertarian non-aggression principle: "That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others." The definition of what causes "harm" can vary from depending who you ask, but I think Gary Johnson was at least trying to channel that idea when he said that discrimination against say a small shop owner can have wider ramifications. Of course this argument can also be countered as per the "Nazi cakes" example given in the debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_principle

Probably not, I don't think there are any statutes forcing you to do business with people who you oppose ideologically. Religious maybe although that's already a murky area, one can claim religion as a defense against ideological disagreements.

The Canadian Libertarian Party used to have a retarded logo and I'm glad they changed it to something actually...libertarianish. CHP logo is fine.


I tried to but failed :lol:. The sad part is that I look it up every now and again. I'd say that I do follow the Harm Principle in this regard despite it being far from perfect thanks to that broadness harm, and the subjectivity of humans could be. However, similar to an earlier post, if a big business or monopoly in particular if they are discriminating against a minority group because that the only place you can go to get a product they sell. Of course best to take way any privileges and subsidies that's keeping it as big as it is so other businesses could defy them, like you said. I don't think many people disagree with that particular part... hopefully.

I can't really find the old, but I'll take your word for it. The logo for the Libertarian party of canada is nice.

Btw, on the subject of my country's libertarian party, can we please have a meme of Gary johnson, if he starts to act like tim moen, with him being like: "When the state gives you subsidies for your licenced lemonade stand. Don't take the subsidies! Make the state take the subsidies back! Get mad! I don't want your damn subsidies, I just want to run my damn business and pay lower taxes! And what's with these licencing laws anyways? Why do I need a licence for a lemonade stand?"

This is the crap I think about at 9:00 in the morning....
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New confederate ramenia
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Postby New confederate ramenia » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:11 pm

Is anyone else here fairly morally authoritarian, but libertarian politically? I believe that a lot of things are wrong or sinful, but government shouldn't ban all or most of them because the laws would be shitty. The NAP doesn't make sense to me as a moral principal. Am I a libertarian?
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Zurkerx
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Postby Zurkerx » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:51 am

New confederate ramenia wrote:Is anyone else here fairly morally authoritarian, but libertarian politically? I believe that a lot of things are wrong or sinful, but government shouldn't ban all or most of them because the laws would be shitty. The NAP doesn't make sense to me as a moral principal. Am I a libertarian?


There are a good number of Libertarians I know that oppose NAP. And yes, there are some Libertarians that feel that abortion is immoral, drugs are bad, etc. but, believe that they don't have the right to stop others from doing as such. There are after all, different kinds of Libertarians with varying viewpoints.
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:00 am

Zurkerx wrote:So what does everyone think of TPP here and free trade in general? Some say it brings great benefits for developing nations. Others say it hurts the /lower/middle class. Surprisingly, all of the Libertarian candidates to my knowledge actually oppose TPP.


But why is it surprising? These big deals can slant things in favour of big companies and away from ordinary people rather than be truly free trade. I don't know the details but this might be why.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:43 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:So what does everyone think of TPP here and free trade in general? Some say it brings great benefits for developing nations. Others say it hurts the /lower/middle class. Surprisingly, all of the Libertarian candidates to my knowledge actually oppose TPP.


But why is it surprising? These big deals can slant things in favour of big companies and away from ordinary people rather than be truly free trade. I don't know the details but this might be why.


I don't think anyone knows the details. But here's the thing: I don't want any bill passed if the details are disclosed to the public. It doesn't matter what is in it, it should be transparent regardless.
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The balkens
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Postby The balkens » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:44 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
But why is it surprising? These big deals can slant things in favour of big companies and away from ordinary people rather than be truly free trade. I don't know the details but this might be why.


I don't think anyone knows the details. But here's the thing: I don't want any bill passed if the details are disclosed to the public. It doesn't matter what is in it, it should be transparent regardless.


yes.

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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:52 pm

New confederate ramenia wrote:Is anyone else here fairly morally authoritarian, but libertarian politically? I believe that a lot of things are wrong or sinful, but government shouldn't ban all or most of them because the laws would be shitty. The NAP doesn't make sense to me as a moral principal. Am I a libertarian?


There's a difference between "thick" and "thin" libertarians.

https://fee.org/articles/libertarianism ... -and-thin/

Thin libertarianism is libertarianism that doesn't concern with it's member's personal beliefs on cultural issues, or sees cultural issues as irrelevant to the main "goal," (which is a voluntary society in tandem with the non-aggression principle.) Thick libertarians believe libertarians should commit themselves to their principles alongside broader social commitment, e.g. oppose things like corporal punishment in schools and the family because it can go against the non-aggression principle or commit themselves to fighting for freedom of speech and opposing "safe spaces," et al.

I tend to be more of a "thick" libertarian than a "thin" one, which is partially why I am also more 'radical' than a lot of thin libertarians.
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Tamsien
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Postby Tamsien » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:55 pm

Zurkerx wrote:So what does everyone think of TPP here and free trade in general? Some say it brings great benefits for developing nations. Others say it hurts the /lower/middle class. Surprisingly, all of the Libertarian candidates to my knowledge actually oppose TPP.

Lacks transparency. It's natural for someone who leans or is a libertarian to oppose the TPP on the basis of transparency.
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Fanosolia
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Postby Fanosolia » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:53 pm

Zurkerx wrote:
New confederate ramenia wrote:Is anyone else here fairly morally authoritarian, but libertarian politically? I believe that a lot of things are wrong or sinful, but government shouldn't ban all or most of them because the laws would be shitty. The NAP doesn't make sense to me as a moral principal. Am I a libertarian?


There are a good number of Libertarians I know that oppose NAP. And yes, there are some Libertarians that feel that abortion is immoral, drugs are bad, etc. but, believe that they don't have the right to stop others from doing as such. There are after all, different kinds of Libertarians with varying viewpoints.


Like oppose, oppose the NAP? I guess I'm not too surprised, but I'm curious as to their ethics that they find more akin to their brand of libertarianism.
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Korouse
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Postby Korouse » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:48 am

What's the "libertarian solution" to healthcare in the United States? As far as I've seen, it's only been:

1. Repeal ACA

2. Let people buy insurance across state lines (which doesn't really do anything good from my research, considering state governments like to have their own healthcare laws + you have to set up networks + concerns with consumer protection)
Last edited by Korouse on Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Fanosolia
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Postby Fanosolia » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:02 am

Korouse wrote:What's the "libertarian solution" to healthcare in the United States? As far as I've seen, it's only been:

1. Repeal ACA

2. Let people buy insurance across state lines (which doesn't really do anything good from my research, considering state governments like to have their own healthcare laws + you have to set up networks + concerns with consumer protection)


People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think libertarians want to deregulate the health industry in general. The logic goes that, at least for the US, healthcare has an entangled mess of mismanaged bureaucracy and cronyism which contributes to the high costs of healthcare. So deregulating it

Now some of the more pragmatic libertarians will look to market friendlier solutions like tax deductions and healthcare vouchers though I don't know if other countries have tried a vouchers for healthcare. I've seen schools, but not healthcare.

Though when I've looked into Bleeding Heart Libertarianism, some do support the "single payer model" as it could be seen as a more efficient way of doing things than the current system: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2014/03/7495/ Though from rereading it, this one seems to support more multi-payer form of universal healthcare.
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