Libertarian Discussion Thread

[Questers]

The problem is no longer one of bakers and buyers.

The problem with capitalism is this: the people who harvest the wheat, bake the bread, transport it to the supermarket, and sell it to people there, are all paid very poorly and have very few avenues to self-betterment. The money made from these enterprises doesn't stay locally, other than employing people on minimum wage jobs and a couple of bucks here and there in local rates, and most of it goes to HQ.

HQ has a lot of money. Some of it is paid out in huge amounts to people who use it to buy things which just satisfy their own, vastly excessive desires (like yachts), or used for property speculation. Even more so tho, teh money made is used to buy other companies so that the value of the shares of the first company increase, because that's how compensation is paid. Investors and boardroom directors are long out of the picture by the time it becomes apparent the company they bought has serious liabilities. It collapses, and everyone loses their job.

[Orostan]

Well, wouldn't everyone owning the means of production mean a system would arise where people do not compete in a market, and production is rationally planned? Perhaps a decentralized form of Economic planning?

No, the means of production under distributism are simply redistributed so that people each and individually have a certain amount of capital with which to secure their economic independence. It does not mean ownership in common like socialism does.

So then market socialism?

If everyone owns the means of production cooperatively in a market setting, that means that they are still running on the same operating system as Capitalism. They still compete. They still must undercut each other. They have eliminated the parasites, but they have not eliminated the deeper problems.

No, the rich just get lucky or are born into it. If they own the Bakery, they can pay the Baker whatever they want. If workers are easily replaced, they can sell the bread during a shortage for a price so high he cannot afford it.

The bourgeois are parasites. Even if they start the ball rolling, they are still parasites for 99% of the time.

Even if the rich are just the product of luck, their fortunes are maintained by intellect, or lost by foolishness. Similarly, if the baker is talented enough, another bakery would be sure to pay him sufficiently.
And finally, the only reason the cost of bread would increase in a free market is because of either low supply or high demand. The market sorts through both naturally.

If the price of bread were low during a shortage, there would be no bread for anyone in the long run.

Porky's fortune can just as easily be maintained by accumulating more and more money. It doesn't matter how much he wastes, so long as he has more coming in. Even so, Capitalism still rewards the most exploitative behaviors which means we only end up with an even worse ruling class after 'natural selection' has taken hold.

To your second bit, you miss an important part of economics. The reason why price increases when supply is low in relation to demand is because sellers are not competing any more, or as much any more. The reason why prices go down in periods of overproduction is because buyers are not competing anymore. The free market will only "sort itself out" after lives are lost, and much economic output is lost. Socialism would ensure that as few people as possible die, and that as little as possible is lost.


If a Baker is talented enough, the bakery will say to him; "You are ten times as productive as the average person. But we will not pay you ten times as much, because for that we could just hire ten people! You are in competition with these 10 people for a job. You must be cheaper than them."

The problem is no longer one of bakers and buyers.

The problem with capitalism is this: the people who harvest the wheat, bake the bread, transport it to the supermarket, and sell it to people there, are all paid very poorly and have very few avenues to self-betterment. The money made from these enterprises doesn't stay locally, other than employing people on minimum wage jobs and a couple of bucks here and there in local rates, and most of it goes to HQ.

HQ has a lot of money. Some of it is paid out in huge amounts to people who use it to buy things which just satisfy their own, vastly excessive desires (like yachts), or used for property speculation. Even more so tho, teh money made is used to buy other companies so that the value of the shares of the first company increase, because that's how compensation is paid. Investors and boardroom directors are long out of the picture by the time it becomes apparent the company they bought has serious liabilities. It collapses, and everyone loses their job.

There is a parasitic class, yes, but there are far deeper problems than just the bourgeois.

[VoVoDoCo]

Welfare is not really as big of a problem as libertarians make it out to be. Moreover reproduction is important for producing laborers. Outsourcing is going on partially because there isn't enough domestic reproduction.

Average job loss due to outsourcing is 87,500
Our labor force is 157 833,000 citizens strong
That's a total of .0006 loss to our employment a year.

Foreign companies "outsource" jobs to America. In fact, companies that originated in Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Canda, Sweden, Switzerland, Italy, Ireland, and the Netherlands together DIRECTLY employ about 117300 people.

That's a total increase of .0007. Out sourcing loses jobs. Outsourcing creates jobs. NET outsourcing for America creates jobs.

[VoVoDoCo]

"Individualism means joining a gang, threatening individuals, and asking for their stuff. If they don't comply, you kill them. THAT'S Individualism."

1) joining a gang
2) threatening individuals
3) asking for stuff
A political party cal be labeled a "gang" (you imply joining a socialist movement is a joining a gang), a political party threatens the social and economic standing of certain individuals, and a party definitely asks for something.

I find it neat how in your list, you just so happen to forget to put number four down. I'll do it for you.
4)murder people

Oh wait, political parties don't do that. I feel like I would've noticed that on the online PDF of their platforms.

[VoVoDoCo]

...other than employing people on minimum wage jobs...

Technically, the vast majority of hour wage workers make more than minimum wage.

"79.9 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates."

"Among those paid by the hour, 701,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.5 million had wages below the federal minimum."

"Together, these 2.2 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.7 percent of all hourly paid workers."

And while there are 1.5 million people making less than minimum wage (which granted is pretty heckin sketchy), overall people get paid more.

[Orostan]

Welfare is not really as big of a problem as libertarians make it out to be. Moreover reproduction is important for producing laborers. Outsourcing is going on partially because there isn't enough domestic reproduction.

Average job loss due to outsourcing is 87,500
Our labor force is 157 833,000 citizens strong
That's a total of .0006 loss to our employment a year.

Foreign companies "outsource" jobs to America. In fact, companies that originated in Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Canda, Sweden, Switzerland, Italy, Ireland, and the Netherlands together DIRECTLY employ about 117300 people.

That's a total increase of .0007. Out sourcing loses jobs. Outsourcing creates jobs. NET outsourcing for America creates jobs.

Is this yearly? If so, it still doesn't account for outsourcing that put most American Industrial workers out of a job.

"Individualism means joining a gang, threatening individuals, and asking for their stuff. If they don't comply, you kill them. THAT'S Individualism."

1) joining a gang
2) threatening individuals
3) asking for stuff
A political party cal be labeled a "gang" (you imply joining a socialist movement is a joining a gang), a political party threatens the social and economic standing of certain individuals, and a party definitely asks for something.

I find it neat how in your list, you just so happen to forget to put number four down. I'll do it for you.
4)murder people

Oh wait, political parties don't do that. I feel like I would've noticed that on the online PDF of their platforms.

Political parties kill people all the time, or rather the people who are part of them do.

[VoVoDoCo]

Average job loss due to outsourcing is 87,500
Our labor force is 157 833,000 citizens strong
That's a total of .0006 loss to our employment a year.

Foreign companies "outsource" jobs to America. In fact, companies that originated in Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Canda, Sweden, Switzerland, Italy, Ireland, and the Netherlands together DIRECTLY employ about 117300 people.

That's a total increase of .0007. Out sourcing loses jobs. Outsourcing creates jobs. NET outsourcing for America creates jobs.

1. Is this yearly? If so, it still doesn't account for outsourcing that put most American Industrial workers out of a job.

I find it neat how in your list, you just so happen to forget to put number four down. I'll do it for you.
4)murder people

Oh wait, political parties don't do that. I feel like I would've noticed that on the online PDF of their platforms.

2. Political parties kill people all the time, or rather the people who are part of them do.

1. It is yearly. Heck, that article (which I'm guessing you didn't read, because it says it's yearly) shows how job outsourcing has increased under Trump's protectionist policies. And yet, we STILL employ more people from overseas than we lose.

2. But it's not a part of those parties ideologies. It IS a part of yours.
Also tu quoque

[VoVoDoCo]

And on what grounds is this based on?

it still doesn't account for outsourcing that put most American Industrial workers out of a job.

It was for total employment. Did I miss something in my source?

[VoVoDoCo]

Also the stats I gave about employment from foreign companies? I read it wrong...

That was JUST IN TENNESSEE.

Here's the anthem of Tennessee, for those so proud of the state they feel the need to listen and pay their homage.

[Orostan]

And on what grounds is this based on?

it still doesn't account for outsourcing that put most American Industrial workers out of a job.

It was for total employment. Did I miss something in my source?

Yes, you missed past outsourcing. Does it say how many Americans lost their industrial jobs via outsourcing? Do you have a graph of American industrial employment employment? Because I do.

[VoVoDoCo]

And on what grounds is this based on?

It was for total employment. Did I miss something in my source?

Yes, you missed past outsourcing. Does it say how many Americans lost their industrial jobs via outsourcing? Do you have a graph of American industrial employment employment? Because I do.

A drop from 19,000 to 12,000?
7,000?
That's less than the number of people employed from outsourcing I gave.

Scratch that, I read it wrong.
19,000,000 to 12,000,000
7 million.
That's a loss of 205,882 a year from the whole US. The stat I gave? Was just jobs created in Tennessee.

[VoVoDoCo]

Do you have a graph...

No. My data is arranged in paragraphs.

I'll grant you that one. My data is arranged lamely.

[VoVoDoCo]

I find it neat how in your list, you just so happen to forget to put number four down. I'll do it for you.
4)murder people

Oh wait, political parties don't do that. I feel like I would've noticed that on the online PDF of their platforms.

2. Political parties kill people all the time, or rather the people who are part of them do.

2. But it's not a part of those parties ideologies. It IS a part of yours.
Also tu quoque

[Nulla Bellum]

The bakers who produce the bread are in no danger of starving; they create their own food supply, or otherwise they are compensated and thus avoid starvation either way.
Meanwhile, the parasite is found in the individual who does no work at all. Even the rich gain their fortunes from the virtue of intellect. All in all, volunteer for charity if you feel so strongly about it.

No, the rich just get lucky or are born into it. If they own the Bakery, they can pay the Baker whatever they want. If workers are easily replaced, they can sell the bread during a shortage for a price so high he cannot afford it.

The bourgeois are parasites. Even if they start the ball rolling, they are still parasites for 99% of the time.

Point of order. What use have I, a boog "parasite," for feeding off empty hosts? Seriously. what am I taking from someone who literally has nothing to take?

Marxism, where even the labor value of insults make no sense.

[Albrenia]

No, the rich just get lucky or are born into it. If they own the Bakery, they can pay the Baker whatever they want. If workers are easily replaced, they can sell the bread during a shortage for a price so high he cannot afford it.

The bourgeois are parasites. Even if they start the ball rolling, they are still parasites for 99% of the time.

Point of order. What use have I, a boog "parasite," for feeding off empty hosts? Seriously. what am I taking from someone who literally has nothing to take?

Marxism, where even the labor value of insults make no sense.

I think the idea is said 'parasites' only have what they have by taking everything which should have gone to the 'empty' hosts.

Or something like that.

[Nulla Bellum]

Point of order. What use have I, a boog "parasite," for feeding off empty hosts? Seriously. what am I taking from someone who literally has nothing to take?

Marxism, where even the labor value of insults make no sense.

I think the idea is said 'parasites' only have what they have by taking everything which should have gone to the 'empty' hosts.

Or something like that.

I prefer Ockham's razor.

Marxism doesn't make sense because it's full of shit. My business didn't start, or grow from taking anything from or profitting off of a base of broke ass people.

[Albrenia]

I think the idea is said 'parasites' only have what they have by taking everything which should have gone to the 'empty' hosts.

Or something like that.

I prefer Ockham's razor.

Marxism doesn't make sense because it's full of shit. My business didn't start, or grow from taking anything from or profitting off of a base of broke ass people.

Yeah. Myself I find communism to be overly optimistic about human nature and rather myopic in its opinion of the divide between the classes.

I'm not a Libertarian either though, mostly because I'm not a fan of just letting folks suffer and die when it can be stopped.

[Darussalam]

Yeah. Myself I find communism to be overly optimistic about human nature and rather myopic in its opinion of the divide between the classes.

I'm not a Libertarian either though, mostly because I'm not a fan of just letting folks suffer and die when it can be stopped.

Woke: libertarianism is about promoting institutions that will increase general welfare

[VoVoDoCo]

I prefer Ockham's razor.

Marxism doesn't make sense because it's full of shit. My business didn't start, or grow from taking anything from or profitting off of a base of broke ass people.

Yeah. Myself I find communism to be overly optimistic about human nature and rather myopic in its opinion of the divide between the classes.

I'm not a Libertarian either though, mostly because I'm not a fan of just letting folks suffer and die when it can be stopped.

Even if that was how Libertarians looked at that issue, that's hardly a reason to not be Libertarian. There are very few Libertarians that agree with the party on EVERY issue.

[Nulla Bellum]

I prefer Ockham's razor.

Marxism doesn't make sense because it's full of shit. My business didn't start, or grow from taking anything from or profitting off of a base of broke ass people.

Yeah. Myself I find communism to be overly optimistic about human nature and rather myopic in its opinion of the divide between the classes.

I'm not a Libertarian either though, mostly because I'm not a fan of just letting folks suffer and die when it can be stopped.

Who's keeping you from suffering and dying? A fairy godmother? I didn't have one of those when I started my business. I just worked to start a business. It never occured to me to put myself at the whim and mercy of people, and then badger, insult, and threaten them when they don't give a shit

That seems like a lot of work to me.

[VoVoDoCo]

Also, here's more for those interested in "insourcing" jobs in America:

AEI Ideas
U.S. affiliates of foreign multinational enterprises (MNEs) employed 6.4 million American workers in 2014, up 3.1% from 2013, adding 189,500 jobs. Employment by U.S. affiliates represented 5.2% of total U.S. private industry employment.
U.S. affiliates invest heavily in American manufacturing, making up 38% of all insourced jobs in 2014. U.S. affiliates supported more than 2.4 million factory jobs, accounting for a fifth of total American manufacturing employment.
U.S. subsidiaries’ share of American manufacturing employment made up 44% of the motor vehicles and parts industry, 45% of petroleum and coal products manufacturing, and 43% of the chemicals industry.
U.S. affiliates of foreign MNEs supported an annual payroll of $510 billion in 2014—with an average compensation per worker of $80,041 (30% greater than the private sector average of $61,770).
U.S. affiliates of foreign companies paid an average salary of $87,231 in the manufacturing sector (10% more than the national manufacturing average).
U.S. affiliates of foreign multinational enterprises contributed $869 billion in added value to U.S. GDP (6.4% of the total).
U.S. affiliates exported $425 billion in goods (26% of all U.S. exports).
U.S. affiliates imported $724 billion in goods (30% of all U.S. imports).
U.S. affiliates spent $57 billion on R&D in 2014 (17% of all U.S. R&D).
Swiss affiliates in the U.S. spent the most on R&D—$10.6 billion in 2014, followed by Japanese, British, German, and French affiliates.
U.S. affiliates spent $231 billion on new property, plant, and equipment (10% of the total).
Foreign MNEs paid $62.3 billion in federal corporate income taxes in 2014 (14% of the total).

This article was posted by the White House during Obama's administration:
For the past 22 months, the private sector has been hiring—to the tune of 3.2 million jobs. In 2011 alone, we saw private companies bring on almost 2 million new workers, more than in any year since 2005.

Perhaps most importantly, the manufacturing sector is recovering faster than the rest of the economy. Through the course of the past two years, the economy has added 334,000 manufacturing job, and that's the strongest two-year period of manufacturing growth since the 1990s.

[VoVoDoCo]

In case one can't tell, I love in/outsourcing lol

[Albrenia]

Yeah. Myself I find communism to be overly optimistic about human nature and rather myopic in its opinion of the divide between the classes.

I'm not a Libertarian either though, mostly because I'm not a fan of just letting folks suffer and die when it can be stopped.

Who's keeping you from suffering and dying? A fairy godmother? I didn't have one of those when I started my business. I just worked to start a business. It never occured to me to put myself at the whim and mercy of people, and then badger, insult, and threaten them when they don't give a shit

That seems like a lot of work to me.

As I said, not a communist myself. I should probably clarify that you succeeding in business is a good thing in my books.

I do support programs to help the disabled, poor and those in need, however. Even if it means taxing those more well off.

[VoVoDoCo]

Who's keeping you from suffering and dying? A fairy godmother? I didn't have one of those when I started my business. I just worked to start a business. It never occured to me to put myself at the whim and mercy of people, and then badger, insult, and threaten them when they don't give a shit

That seems like a lot of work to me.

As I said, not a communist myself. I should probably clarify that you succeeding in business is a good thing in my books.

I do support programs to help the disabled, poor and those in need, however. Even if it means taxing those more well off.

You can believe in that and be Libertarian. You wouldn't be mainstream, but it's possible.

[Questers]

Marxism doesn't make sense because it's full of shit. My business didn't start, or grow from taking anything from or profitting off of a base of broke ass people.

loooooooooooooooooooooool