Libertarian Discussion Thread

[Albrenia]

I don't think he was saying the position didn't suck, just that it was coherent.

Which it ain't.

In what way, if you don't mind me asking?

Aren't Libertarians all about the government not getting up in people's business and people having maximum freedom?

[The Parkus Empire]

Welfare is not really as big of a problem as libertarians make it out to be. Moreover reproduction is important for producing laborers. Outsourcing is going on partially because there isn't enough domestic reproduction.

No, outsourcing is happening because labor costs less elsewhere.

Ron Paul is one of the greatest congressmen to ever live.

Ron "its the central bankers" Paul is economically illiterate. He thinks that the Federal Reserve causes crisis by fucking with the money supply (already proved wrong by Marx) in addition to actually thinking Austrian Economics describes the real world.

Labor costs less elsewhere because they can treat labor like shit. They can't treat labor here like shit due to a lot more regulation, but an increase in supply of labor still lowers its cost. Which is what immigration is really about

[Darussalam]

That's because your position sux. Look at you, saying the American people need to reproduce less, while simultaneously shilling for importing third worlders

Nah fam I support incentivizing net taxpayers to have more children and inviting more skilled migrants

[Orostan]

No, outsourcing is happening because labor costs less elsewhere.


Ron "its the central bankers" Paul is economically illiterate. He thinks that the Federal Reserve causes crisis by fucking with the money supply (already proved wrong by Marx) in addition to actually thinking Austrian Economics describes the real world.

Labor costs less elsewhere because they can treat labor like shit. They can't treat labor here like shit due to a lot more regulation, but an increase in supply of labor still lowers its cost. Which is what immigration is really about

They can't pay us a dollar a day in the USA because you can't live on that here. You'd die. Also, the people wouldn't stand for it and we'd have some sort of left wing revolution or coup.

On Immigration, you're completely correct. They can treat Illegal Mexicans like shit by making it excessively hard to get into the USA legally and then having ICE deport enough immigrants to keep them from unionizing.

[Northern Davincia]

Ron "its the central bankers" Paul is economically illiterate. He thinks that the Federal Reserve causes crisis by fucking with the money supply (already proved wrong by Marx) in addition to actually thinking Austrian Economics describes the real world.

1. The Federal Reserve has contributed significantly to almost every economic downturn since its creation (in the US, at least).
2. Marx hasn't proved anything here.
3. Funny as it is to hear you talk about the real world, Austrian economics has cemented the truth of free markets.

[Orostan]

Ron "its the central bankers" Paul is economically illiterate. He thinks that the Federal Reserve causes crisis by fucking with the money supply (already proved wrong by Marx) in addition to actually thinking Austrian Economics describes the real world.

1. The Federal Reserve has contributed significantly to almost every economic downturn since its creation (in the US, at least).
2. Marx hasn't proved anything here.
3. Funny as it is to hear you talk about the real world, Austrian economics has cemented the truth of free markets.

1. No, no it hasn't.
2. Yes he has. In volume three of Capital he lists interest rates and the gold reserve of the Bank of England. He proves that the interest on loans is determined by the supply and demand of money.
3. How? Even Austrian price formation is bullshit.

[The Parkus Empire]

Labor costs less elsewhere because they can treat labor like shit. They can't treat labor here like shit due to a lot more regulation, but an increase in supply of labor still lowers its cost. Which is what immigration is really about

They can't pay us a dollar a day in the USA because you can't live on that here. You'd die. Also, the people wouldn't stand for it and we'd have some sort of left wing revolution or coup.


On Immigration, you're completely correct. They can treat Illegal Mexicans like shit by making it excessively hard to get into the USA legally and then having ICE deport enough immigrants to keep them from unionizing.

You can live on a dollar a day here if you're homeless, I have done it. You could even do with a home if it weren't for utilities and housing codes

[Northern Davincia]

1. The Federal Reserve has contributed significantly to almost every economic downturn since its creation (in the US, at least).
2. Marx hasn't proved anything here.
3. Funny as it is to hear you talk about the real world, Austrian economics has cemented the truth of free markets.

1. No, no it hasn't.
2. Yes he has. In volume three of Capital he lists interest rates and the gold reserve of the Bank of England. He proves that the interest on loans is determined by the supply and demand of money.
3. How? Even Austrian price formation is bullshit.

1. http://www.wnd.com/2008/03/59405/
2. Has it ever crossed your mind that Marx could be wrong? Besides, the Bank of England and the Federal Reserve are separate entities.
3. Subjective value theory is already fact.

[Orostan]

They can't pay us a dollar a day in the USA because you can't live on that here. You'd die. Also, the people wouldn't stand for it and we'd have some sort of left wing revolution or coup.


On Immigration, you're completely correct. They can treat Illegal Mexicans like shit by making it excessively hard to get into the USA legally and then having ICE deport enough immigrants to keep them from unionizing.

You can live on a dollar a day here if you're homeless, I have done it. You could even do with a home if it weren't for utilities and housing codes

So you're telling me that I can exist decently in the USA on one dollar every day. That I can pay for food, a house, and the other essentials of life on just one dollar every day.

That's impossible, and unreasonable. Even if I could live like that, why should I? Why should I not demand more of what I produce? Why should I allow a parasitic Capitalist to live off of my labor? If this kind of wage came to America, these are the questions we would see people asking.

[The Parkus Empire]

You can live on a dollar a day here if you're homeless, I have done it. You could even do with a home if it weren't for utilities and housing codes

So you're telling me that I can exist decently in the USA on one dollar every day. That I can pay for food, a house, and the other essentials of life on just one dollar every day.

That's impossible, and unreasonable. Even if I could live like that, why should I? Why should I not demand more of what I produce? Why should I allow a parasitic Capitalist to live off of my labor? If this kind of wage came to America, these are the questions we would see people asking.

No, I am saying if you were allowed to live in a shack without utilities, you could live on a dollar a day. Would it be decent? As decent as outsourced labor has it

[Northern Davincia]

You can live on a dollar a day here if you're homeless, I have done it. You could even do with a home if it weren't for utilities and housing codes

So you're telling me that I can exist decently in the USA on one dollar every day. That I can pay for food, a house, and the other essentials of life on just one dollar every day.

That's impossible, and unreasonable. Even if I could live like that, why should I? Why should I not demand more of what I produce? Why should I allow a parasitic Capitalist to live off of my labor? If this kind of wage came to America, these are the questions we would see people asking.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that you dislike parasitism while arguing that society should provide all essentials freely?

[Darussalam]

Abolish housing regulations for affordable housing

[Orostan]

So you're telling me that I can exist decently in the USA on one dollar every day. That I can pay for food, a house, and the other essentials of life on just one dollar every day.

That's impossible, and unreasonable. Even if I could live like that, why should I? Why should I not demand more of what I produce? Why should I allow a parasitic Capitalist to live off of my labor? If this kind of wage came to America, these are the questions we would see people asking.

No, I am saying if you were allowed to live in a shack without utilities, you could live on a dollar a day. Would it be decent? As decent as outsourced labor has it

Ok. The thing is, that's still better than how people lived during the late 1800s and early 1900s. It's still better than what a third world industrial economy is like. Any sort of thing like that in America means a new labor movement - and then we get outsourcing again. The only solution here is to eliminate the problem at its root, which means eliminate Capitalism.

[Northern Davincia]

No, I am saying if you were allowed to live in a shack without utilities, you could live on a dollar a day. Would it be decent? As decent as outsourced labor has it

Ok. The thing is, that's still better than how people lived during the late 1800s and early 1900s. It's still better than what a third world industrial economy is like. Any sort of thing like that in America means a new labor movement - and then we get outsourcing again. The only solution here is to eliminate the problem at its root, which means eliminate Capitalism.

Good luck with that. I will be laughing as your ilk waits impatiently in their breadlines.

[The Parkus Empire]

No, I am saying if you were allowed to live in a shack without utilities, you could live on a dollar a day. Would it be decent? As decent as outsourced labor has it

Ok. The thing is, that's still better than how people lived during the late 1800s and early 1900s. It's still better than what a third world industrial economy is like. Any sort of thing like that in America means a new labor movement - and then we get outsourcing again. The only solution here is to eliminate the problem at its root, which means eliminate Capitalism.

Yes, I much prefer distributism.

[Orostan]

Ok. The thing is, that's still better than how people lived during the late 1800s and early 1900s. It's still better than what a third world industrial economy is like. Any sort of thing like that in America means a new labor movement - and then we get outsourcing again. The only solution here is to eliminate the problem at its root, which means eliminate Capitalism.

Good luck with that. I will be laughing as your ilk waits impatiently in their breadlines.

There's breadlines in any system which has a famine or an economic collapse. At least under Socialism bread is distributed according to need and not according to ability to pay.

Ok. The thing is, that's still better than how people lived during the late 1800s and early 1900s. It's still better than what a third world industrial economy is like. Any sort of thing like that in America means a new labor movement - and then we get outsourcing again. The only solution here is to eliminate the problem at its root, which means eliminate Capitalism.

Yes, I much prefer distributism.

I've heard that term before, but I don't know what it means. Can you explain it to me?

[Northern Davincia]

Good luck with that. I will be laughing as your ilk waits impatiently in their breadlines.

There's breadlines in any system which has a famine or an economic collapse. At least under Socialism bread is distributed according to need and not according to ability to pay.

This is, quite literally, the leading cause of inefficiency in a socialist model.

[Orostan]

There's breadlines in any system which has a famine or an economic collapse. At least under Socialism bread is distributed according to need and not according to ability to pay.

This is, quite literally, the leading cause of inefficiency in a socialist model.

So, letting the people who produce bread to starve while parasites feast is an efficient system?

[Orostan]

Abolish housing regulations for affordable housing

that's not how capitalism works.

[Questers]

I've heard that term before, but I don't know what it means. Can you explain it to me?

It's a form of economic organisation which stems from Catholic social teaching in which capital (i.e. the means of production) are distributed with every citizen getting a bit of a share, but without things like welfare or central planners.

[Orostan]

I've heard that term before, but I don't know what it means. Can you explain it to me?

It's a form of economic organisation which stems from Catholic social teaching in which capital (i.e. the means of production) are distributed with every citizen getting a bit of a share, but without things like welfare or central planners.

Well, wouldn't everyone owning the means of production mean a system would arise where people do not compete in a market, and production is rationally planned? Perhaps a decentralized form of Economic planning?

[Northern Davincia]

This is, quite literally, the leading cause of inefficiency in a socialist model.

So, letting the people who produce bread to starve while parasites feast is an efficient system?

The bakers who produce the bread are in no danger of starving; they create their own food supply, or otherwise they are compensated and thus avoid starvation either way.
Meanwhile, the parasite is found in the individual who does no work at all. Even the rich gain their fortunes from the virtue of intellect. All in all, volunteer for charity if you feel so strongly about it.

[Orostan]

So, letting the people who produce bread to starve while parasites feast is an efficient system?

The bakers who produce the bread are in no danger of starving; they create their own food supply, or otherwise they are compensated and thus avoid starvation either way.
Meanwhile, the parasite is found in the individual who does no work at all. Even the rich gain their fortunes from the virtue of intellect. All in all, volunteer for charity if you feel so strongly about it.

No, the rich just get lucky or are born into it. If they own the Bakery, they can pay the Baker whatever they want. If workers are easily replaced, they can sell the bread during a shortage for a price so high he cannot afford it.

The bourgeois are parasites. Even if they start the ball rolling, they are still parasites for 99% of the time.

[Jelmatt]

It's a form of economic organisation which stems from Catholic social teaching in which capital (i.e. the means of production) are distributed with every citizen getting a bit of a share, but without things like welfare or central planners.

Well, wouldn't everyone owning the means of production mean a system would arise where people do not compete in a market, and production is rationally planned? Perhaps a decentralized form of Economic planning?

No, the means of production under distributism are simply redistributed so that people each and individually have a certain amount of capital with which to secure their economic independence. It does not mean ownership in common like socialism does.

[Northern Davincia]

The bakers who produce the bread are in no danger of starving; they create their own food supply, or otherwise they are compensated and thus avoid starvation either way.
Meanwhile, the parasite is found in the individual who does no work at all. Even the rich gain their fortunes from the virtue of intellect. All in all, volunteer for charity if you feel so strongly about it.

No, the rich just get lucky or are born into it. If they own the Bakery, they can pay the Baker whatever they want. If workers are easily replaced, they can sell the bread during a shortage for a price so high he cannot afford it.

The bourgeois are parasites. Even if they start the ball rolling, they are still parasites for 99% of the time.

Even if the rich are just the product of luck, their fortunes are maintained by intellect, or lost by foolishness. Similarly, if the baker is talented enough, another bakery would be sure to pay him sufficiently.
And finally, the only reason the cost of bread would increase in a free market is because of either low supply or high demand. The market sorts through both naturally.

If the price of bread were low during a shortage, there would be no bread for anyone in the long run.