That's not what I said. I said nothing about incentives, or government control.
If you want to know about incentives under socialism, I'd be happy to discuss that.
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by Orostan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:26 am
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by The Liberated Territories » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:38 am
Orostan wrote:1. Yes I have, I've stated the distinction at least twice.
Orostan wrote:2. Here you are trying to apply your definition of private property to what Marxists define private property as. It's like calling an apple a pear, it doesn't make any sense. In addition, your sentence about profit tells me that you don't understand how a real economy works or how a planned economy would work, or how communism works.
In a Socialist system, you'd be able to sell as many apples as you like, either to a distribution cooperative or to a supermarket. Either way, you wouldn't be able to charge any more than the larger orchards are charging (which is based on how much labor it took to harvest the apples and care for the trees).
by Hammer Britannia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 am
Orostan wrote:If you want to know about incentives under socialism, I'd be happy to discuss that.
by Orostan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:49 am
The Liberated Territories wrote:Orostan wrote:1. Yes I have, I've stated the distinction at least twice.
:facepalm:Orostan wrote:2. Here you are trying to apply your definition of private property to what Marxists define private property as. It's like calling an apple a pear, it doesn't make any sense. In addition, your sentence about profit tells me that you don't understand how a real economy works or how a planned economy would work, or how communism works.
Ahaha a Marxist telling me how a real economy works. That's great.
A socialist society is still privy to supply and demand. If people want apples and the central planners cannot deliver, then there will be capitalists like moi to fill that void.In a Socialist system, you'd be able to sell as many apples as you like, either to a distribution cooperative or to a supermarket. Either way, you wouldn't be able to charge any more than the larger orchards are charging (which is based on how much labor it took to harvest the apples and care for the trees).
Why not? Perhaps my apples are tastier, or more easily accessible, and therefore have a higher demand— I could certainly get away with charging more. Or is the Socialist politburo going to stop me by seizing my apples?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Orostan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:52 am
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Hammer Britannia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:54 am
by Orostan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:01 pm
Hammer Britannia wrote:Orostan wrote:Other than the labor currency or labor vouchers? If you can work in a field that you enjoy and you aren't at risk to die on the job, I don't see why people wouldn't voluntarily work.
Because people don't like work?
The only "Job" that I could see being enjoyable is in the field of science,sport, and programming. The problem is, if we have a world of only Scientists, Sports players, and Programmers than the society would collapse in on itself.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Hammer Britannia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:05 pm
Orostan wrote:Hammer Britannia wrote:Because people don't like work?
The only "Job" that I could see being enjoyable is in the field of science,sport, and programming. The problem is, if we have a world of only Scientists, Sports players, and Programmers than the society would collapse in on itself.
Perhaps for you. Other people have got different preferences. Some people like to work with their hands and even like working in coal mines.
by Orostan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:10 pm
Hammer Britannia wrote:Orostan wrote:Perhaps for you. Other people have got different preferences. Some people like to work with their hands and even like working in coal mines.
Because that's been in their culture for many years, yes.
However, the majority wouldn't work period. We work because we need to, that's why they did. They didn't start mining because "Hitting rocks sounds like fun", they mined because their ancestors wanted an reward and they joined along. If a man's only incentive for working is entertainment, only a minority would work.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Hammer Britannia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:19 pm
Orostan wrote:We work because we need to, but not just to survive. What else would we do without some kind of work? I'd think that a life without labor would be rather boring. People choose to go into certain fields not just for the money, but because they are interested in the subject. Life doesn't revolve around monetary incentives alone, you know.
by Orostan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:32 pm
Hammer Britannia wrote:Orostan wrote:We work because we need to, but not just to survive. What else would we do without some kind of work? I'd think that a life without labor would be rather boring. People choose to go into certain fields not just for the money, but because they are interested in the subject. Life doesn't revolve around monetary incentives alone, you know.
Sleep? Play state-approved video games? Watch TV? Fly a kite? Explore the world? Go to Utah? Move away from the shithole country that follows Marxism?
If life gets boring, then do something else. I can think of a million things I would rather do than work, and I can think of a million things Most people would rather do than work.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Taihei Tengoku » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:29 pm
by Hammer Britannia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:34 pm
Taihei Tengoku wrote:Humans are social creatures and perform social acts, news at 11000BC
by Northern Davincia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:03 pm
Orostan wrote:Hammer Britannia wrote:Sleep? Play state-approved video games? Watch TV? Fly a kite? Explore the world? Go to Utah? Move away from the shithole country that follows Marxism?
If life gets boring, then do something else. I can think of a million things I would rather do than work, and I can think of a million things Most people would rather do than work.
>follows marxism
I've explained why saying that as a criticism is stupid multiple times already.
And while, yes, you might avoid working. But it won't last very long. Eventually you will get bored and go to work.
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Northern Davincia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:14 pm
Orostan wrote:
You however, did not read what I asked you to read at the time I criticized you for it.Northern Davincia wrote:Freedom and having infinite choices are not synonymous. Tell me, in a society where the unemployed can still reap the fruits of labor (socialism), does that not limit the freedom of society?
How do we answer to the law of gravity? Airplanes, rockets, etc. Humans are an inventive bunch when it comes to surpassing their limits.
I didn't see this before. Sorry about that.
1) No, it does not. Freedom means being able to live as you want to live, and when society can generate enough of a surplus to provide even for those that do not work, why should it not?
2) What do you mean by this?
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Orostan » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:33 am
Northern Davincia wrote:Orostan wrote:>follows marxism
I've explained why saying that as a criticism is stupid multiple times already.
And while, yes, you might avoid working. But it won't last very long. Eventually you will get bored and go to work.
What would be the motivation to work long enough or sufficiently enough to prevent everyone from facing shortages?
Northern Davincia wrote:Orostan wrote:You however, did not read what I asked you to read at the time I criticized you for it.
I didn't see this before. Sorry about that.
1) No, it does not. Freedom means being able to live as you want to live, and when society can generate enough of a surplus to provide even for those that do not work, why should it not?
2) What do you mean by this?
1. Because those who do not work do not deserve that surplus. It rewards idleness. Regardless, if freedom is to live as I please, then I wish to live independently from collectivists.
2. When confronted with a dilemma, humans are known to find solutions. That is our defining characteristic.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by The Grene Knyght » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:08 am
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by Hammer Britannia » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:21 am
The Grene Knyght wrote:Anyone got some examples of right-libertarian societies/cultures/nations/whatever (either historical or currant)?
(edit: not related to whatever you're talking about rn, just interested)
by Hammer Britannia » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:25 am
Orostan wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:What would be the motivation to work long enough or sufficiently enough to prevent everyone from facing shortages?
If someone enjoys their work, they will probably want to work long enough. Especially when how that work is done and when it is done is controlled democratically by them and other workers.
by The Liberated Territories » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:23 am
The Grene Knyght wrote:Anyone got some examples of right-libertarian societies/cultures/nations/whatever (either historical or currant)?
(edit: not related to whatever you're talking about rn, just interested)
by 36 Camera Perspective » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:41 pm
The Grene Knyght wrote:Anyone got some examples of right-libertarian societies/cultures/nations/whatever (either historical or currant)?
(edit: not related to whatever you're talking about rn, just interested)
by Orostan » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:02 pm
Nulla Bellum wrote:attention all passengers
Hammer Britannia wrote:Orostan wrote:If someone enjoys their work, they will probably want to work long enough. Especially when how that work is done and when it is done is controlled democratically by them and other workers.
Yeah, but who says that everyone will work long enough at the same time?
Even if everyone magically wanted to work for more than an hour a day, who's to say that they will work together efficantly?
And, also, what the hell does Democratic workplaces have to do with how long and how much you work? I don't care if my boss is some rich Bureaucrat or a elected memeber, doesn't mean A: I (or anybody else) would want to work more, or B: That they even know HOW to lead a place of work.
36 Camera Perspective wrote:The Grene Knyght wrote:Anyone got some examples of right-libertarian societies/cultures/nations/whatever (either historical or currant)?
(edit: not related to whatever you're talking about rn, just interested)
Early America, as well as the Dutch after they gained their independence from Spain. The Dutch were so economically successful, they called it the Dutch Miracle.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by 36 Camera Perspective » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:23 pm
by 36 Camera Perspective » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:27 pm
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