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Niur
Senator
 
Posts: 4018
Founded: Aug 01, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Niur » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:53 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:
NERVUN wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:I guess the most obvious questions to ask are - who owned the laptops in question? If it was the school or education department, then they have a right to dictate what they can be used for, and what they can't. And did the students sign any sort of terms of use agreement - if they did, the school has a perfectly legitimate right to punish them for violating it. I have a school laptop as an educator, and I am well aware of the rules governing it's use, including that the school can monitor what I do with it. Our students in Australia are subjected to the same terms as we are, and are not stupid enough to use school issued equipment to do things like this.

While I am a big advocate for protection of privacy, I really don't see that this is an issue, unless the laptops were gifted to the students or purchased by the families.

I'm trying to see where a school as the right to dictate behavor in a student's home or monitor student (AND non-student) actions without prior authorization.

It's one thing to say that a school laptop shouldn't be used to surf porn or to engage in a cyberattack on something, it is quite another to remotely turn on a webcam and watch students and their families in their homes.


My understanding is that an inappropriate picture was found on the laptop of a student. If the laptop belongs to the school, or the students are subject to an agreement on appropriate use, they have a right to check the contents of the laptop and what it is being used for.

I don't know enough technically about the webcam thing, but again if the school laptop is being used with a webcam, the school has a right to check what is being put onto it. Especially if the webcam is part of the package. Now if the school is found to be using the webcams to spy on students and families on a day-to-day basis, rather than confirming that the rules of use are being followed, that is a different story.

No see, the thing was that the webcam took a picture of the student doing something at his home, and used this as eveidence for so called "inproper behavior at home"
"In cahuitontli ca otopan, yehuantzitzin yollochipahuac tonaz, yeceh yehuantzitzin tica imanimanmeh tlahueliloc telchihualozque. In cahuitontli ca teuctlatolli ic otopan, auh yehuan quitzacua, in neltiliztli, onyezque huetztoc!"

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Saint Jade IV
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Posts: 6441
Founded: Jul 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Saint Jade IV » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:57 pm

Laerod wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:I guess the most obvious questions to ask are - who owned the laptops in question? If it was the school or education department, then they have a right to dictate what they can be used for, and what they can't. And did the students sign any sort of terms of use agreement - if they did, the school has a perfectly legitimate right to punish them for violating it. I have a school laptop as an educator, and I am well aware of the rules governing it's use, including that the school can monitor what I do with it. Our students in Australia are subjected to the same terms as we are, and are not stupid enough to use school issued equipment to do things like this.

While I am a big advocate for protection of privacy, I really don't see that this is an issue, unless the laptops were gifted to the students or purchased by the families.

They most certainly do not have the right to monitor their student's keystrokes without telling them they're doing so and the webcam watching is definitely out of question.


Why not? If they are issuing the laptop to the student, and it is property of the school, they have a right to ensure that students are using school property in an appropriate fashion. My limited understanding of webcams leads me to refrain from commenting on the allegation of "spying" - since to my understanding, the school would only be able to see what the student has recorded or what the student is doing on the webcam itself. But I am most likely incorrect on the capabilities of webcams.

My understanding is that students would be subject to a terms of use agreement - I don't see how they could be issued otherwise and have the school still comply with duty of care for one. Most students and parents simply sign this agreement without reading it thoroughly - which I suspect is the case here.
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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:58 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:
NERVUN wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:I guess the most obvious questions to ask are - who owned the laptops in question? If it was the school or education department, then they have a right to dictate what they can be used for, and what they can't. And did the students sign any sort of terms of use agreement - if they did, the school has a perfectly legitimate right to punish them for violating it. I have a school laptop as an educator, and I am well aware of the rules governing it's use, including that the school can monitor what I do with it. Our students in Australia are subjected to the same terms as we are, and are not stupid enough to use school issued equipment to do things like this.

While I am a big advocate for protection of privacy, I really don't see that this is an issue, unless the laptops were gifted to the students or purchased by the families.

I'm trying to see where a school as the right to dictate behavor in a student's home or monitor student (AND non-student) actions without prior authorization.

It's one thing to say that a school laptop shouldn't be used to surf porn or to engage in a cyberattack on something, it is quite another to remotely turn on a webcam and watch students and their families in their homes.


My understanding is that an inappropriate picture was found on the laptop of a student. If the laptop belongs to the school, or the students are subject to an agreement on appropriate use, they have a right to check the contents of the laptop and what it is being used for.

I don't know enough technically about the webcam thing, but again if the school laptop is being used with a webcam, the school has a right to check what is being put onto it. Especially if the webcam is part of the package. Now if the school is found to be using the webcams to spy on students and families on a day-to-day basis, rather than confirming that the rules of use are being followed, that is a different story.

You misunderstand what has happened. The student was told he was in trouble for innapropriate behavor at home and as proof of this was shown a picture obtained from the webcam embeded in the laptop. The parents and students were never told that the school would, or could, monitor people in their homes.
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Satirius
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Posts: 5197
Founded: Nov 21, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Satirius » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:58 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:Ignorance is strength? Awesome motto for a school.

Yes it is. "EVERYBODY DOES IT TOO"
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Rhodmhire
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Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodmhire » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:00 pm

Public execution.

How dare those scum use the Internet like that.
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Saint Jade IV
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Posts: 6441
Founded: Jul 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Saint Jade IV » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:01 pm

Niur wrote:No see, the thing was that the webcam took a picture of the student doing something at his home, and used this as eveidence for so called "inproper behavior at home"


There is a difference between improper use of school resources and improper behaviour at home. Improper use of school resources could legitimately occur in a situation where the student is taking school resources home. In fact, as a teacher, I have disciplined student for this when textbooks or computer programs come back to school with inappropriate content on them or in a damaged condition. We also have disciplined students for inappropriate postings on school discussion boards even though these were done on a home computer outside school hours. They have also had privileges revoked for storing inappropriate images and pictures on their virtual storage space provided by the education department.
When you grow up, your heart dies.
It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of son of a b*tch or another.
RIP Dyakovo...we are all poorer for your loss.

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NERVUN
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 29370
Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:02 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:
Laerod wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:I guess the most obvious questions to ask are - who owned the laptops in question? If it was the school or education department, then they have a right to dictate what they can be used for, and what they can't. And did the students sign any sort of terms of use agreement - if they did, the school has a perfectly legitimate right to punish them for violating it. I have a school laptop as an educator, and I am well aware of the rules governing it's use, including that the school can monitor what I do with it. Our students in Australia are subjected to the same terms as we are, and are not stupid enough to use school issued equipment to do things like this.

While I am a big advocate for protection of privacy, I really don't see that this is an issue, unless the laptops were gifted to the students or purchased by the families.

They most certainly do not have the right to monitor their student's keystrokes without telling them they're doing so and the webcam watching is definitely out of question.


Why not? If they are issuing the laptop to the student, and it is property of the school, they have a right to ensure that students are using school property in an appropriate fashion. My limited understanding of webcams leads me to refrain from commenting on the allegation of "spying" - since to my understanding, the school would only be able to see what the student has recorded or what the student is doing on the webcam itself. But I am most likely incorrect on the capabilities of webcams.

No, the school was able to turn on the cams, turning them into security cams. They were able to capture images of anyone in the room within the field of vision of the camera. Not just what the student was doing on the computer or what they recorded. ANYTHING.

My understanding is that students would be subject to a terms of use agreement - I don't see how they could be issued otherwise and have the school still comply with duty of care for one. Most students and parents simply sign this agreement without reading it thoroughly - which I suspect is the case here.

Court documents claim that at no time were the parents informed that the web cam could be remotely turned on and monitored without consent.
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Niur
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Posts: 4018
Founded: Aug 01, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Niur » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:05 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:
Niur wrote:No see, the thing was that the webcam took a picture of the student doing something at his home, and used this as eveidence for so called "inproper behavior at home"


There is a difference between improper use of school resources and improper behaviour at home. Improper use of school resources could legitimately occur in a situation where the student is taking school resources home. In fact, as a teacher, I have disciplined student for this when textbooks or computer programs come back to school with inappropriate content on them or in a damaged condition. We also have disciplined students for inappropriate postings on school discussion boards even though these were done on a home computer outside school hours. They have also had privileges revoked for storing inappropriate images and pictures on their virtual storage space provided by the education department.

Wait what? I don't see how this has anything to do with my post.
"In cahuitontli ca otopan, yehuantzitzin yollochipahuac tonaz, yeceh yehuantzitzin tica imanimanmeh tlahueliloc telchihualozque. In cahuitontli ca teuctlatolli ic otopan, auh yehuan quitzacua, in neltiliztli, onyezque huetztoc!"

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C-Jawesome
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Sep 23, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby C-Jawesome » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:05 pm

Just put some tape over the camera

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Laerod
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26183
Founded: Jul 17, 2004
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Laerod » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:11 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:Why not? If they are issuing the laptop to the student, and it is property of the school, they have a right to ensure that students are using school property in an appropriate fashion.

The appropriate fashion of monitoring school property is that the school has to let them know that they can spy on them. With keymapping, they can figure out your passwords, PINs, bank information, credit card numbers, etc. The warning that goes along with this kind of spyware needs to be pretty damn explicit to cover the breach of privacy.
My limited understanding of webcams leads me to refrain from commenting on the allegation of "spying" - since to my understanding, the school would only be able to see what the student has recorded or what the student is doing on the webcam itself. But I am most likely incorrect on the capabilities of webcams.

No. With the appropriate programs installed, you can actually turn on and access microphones and webcams on computers. There was a case either in NATO or the German government a while back where they discoverd spyware that had turned office computers into bugs and security cams.
My understanding is that students would be subject to a terms of use agreement - I don't see how they could be issued otherwise and have the school still comply with duty of care for one. Most students and parents simply sign this agreement without reading it thoroughly - which I suspect is the case here.

There is no fucking way an agreement could entail that kind of power for the school. Those webcams, if part of the computer, don't have the ability to monitor anything but what the person sitting in front of it is doing, or what's going on behind them. There is nothing that can be gained from watching the webcam that can be justified by the need to monitor school property, since you won't be able to see the laptop.

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Bazatia
Envoy
 
Posts: 272
Founded: Sep 15, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bazatia » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:12 pm

I'm surprised, really. I should have seen it coming because they have been inching that way over the years, but wow.
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Rhodmhire
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Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodmhire » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:17 pm

C-Jawesome wrote:Just put some tape over the camera


And over the mouths of the idiots who made the Internet look like some kind of monster, don't forget that.

Tape definitely needs to go over those holes, and perhaps others as well.
Part of me grew up here. But part of growing up is leaving parts of ourselves behind.

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Niur
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Posts: 4018
Founded: Aug 01, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Niur » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:19 pm

Rhodmhire wrote:
C-Jawesome wrote:Just put some tape over the camera


And over the mouths of the idiots who made the Internet look like some kind of monster, don't forget that.

Tape definitely needs to go over those holes, and perhaps others as well.

Quite so. When I first read this article, one thought ran through my head. 'Bring your sword to school day'
"In cahuitontli ca otopan, yehuantzitzin yollochipahuac tonaz, yeceh yehuantzitzin tica imanimanmeh tlahueliloc telchihualozque. In cahuitontli ca teuctlatolli ic otopan, auh yehuan quitzacua, in neltiliztli, onyezque huetztoc!"

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Rhodmhire
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Posts: 17421
Founded: Jun 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodmhire » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:20 pm

Niur wrote:
Rhodmhire wrote:
C-Jawesome wrote:Just put some tape over the camera


And over the mouths of the idiots who made the Internet look like some kind of monster, don't forget that.

Tape definitely needs to go over those holes, and perhaps others as well.

Quite so. When I first read this article, one thought ran through my head. 'Bring your sword to school day'


I love the way that mind of yours works.
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Blouman Empire
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Posts: 16068
Founded: Sep 05, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Blouman Empire » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:28 pm

NERVUN wrote:I'm trying to see where a school as the right to dictate behavor in a student's home or monitor student (AND non-student) actions without prior authorization.


I got a lot of this with the school trying to tell me what I could and could not do outside of school hours away from the school when they were no longer responsible for me. I could understand (to an extent) when it was after school hours and we still had our school uniform on (apparently they were responsible until we got home after school) but outside of that they always knew what I was going to say to them when trying to tell me what I was allowed to do outside of that.
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Wikipedia and Universe
Senator
 
Posts: 3897
Founded: Jul 30, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Wikipedia and Universe » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:31 pm

This is just sick. I actually go to a free online school and they provide everyone with laptops and printers. They basically have your average internet filter and they can turn on an "Appshare" to see your screen if you are having problems. No hidden webcams. You'd have to get an actual webcam and mount it. Even then, no spying.

This has me asking some questions. Firstly, can they still access it and use it to spy even if it is turned off? Secondly (assuming the webcam is built into the screen part), wouldn't it be rendered useless if you shut the laptop?

I wonder what this "compromising picture" of the student engaging in "improper behavior" was. There are just so many wrong things about this.
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Laerod
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26183
Founded: Jul 17, 2004
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Laerod » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:34 pm

Blouman Empire wrote:I got a lot of this with the school trying to tell me what I could and could not do outside of school hours away from the school when they were no longer responsible for me. I could understand (to an extent) when it was after school hours and we still had our school uniform on (apparently they were responsible until we got home after school) but outside of that they always knew what I was going to say to them when trying to tell me what I was allowed to do outside of that.

Yeah, I remember when I couldn't walk home half a kilometer from a school trip unless I brought a slip of paper from my parents. Insurance issues, basically.

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Unity Horde
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 433
Founded: Feb 18, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Unity Horde » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:38 pm

They should just confiscate and destroy all related material and have everyone involved (in perpetrating the crime) hanged in the streets without pardon, that would solve it.
Last edited by Unity Horde on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Non Aligned States
Minister
 
Posts: 3156
Founded: Nov 14, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Non Aligned States » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:45 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:My understanding is that an inappropriate picture was found on the laptop of a student.


Webcams don't work that way. A webcam is a camera fitted to a computer. That's it. It's only use is in recording whoever and whatever is facing the laptop. It cannot record what is being put into the laptop.

If you put your laptop in your bedroom and are changing clothes while the webcam is turned on, it will record you changing clothes. It can't record what you're typing or whatever you're doing on your laptop.

To make an analogy, it would be like having your rented car come with a spy camera that can peek in your bedroom at the dealer's discretion.
Last edited by Non Aligned States on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NERVUN
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 29370
Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:45 pm

Blouman Empire wrote:
NERVUN wrote:I'm trying to see where a school as the right to dictate behavor in a student's home or monitor student (AND non-student) actions without prior authorization.


I got a lot of this with the school trying to tell me what I could and could not do outside of school hours away from the school when they were no longer responsible for me. I could understand (to an extent) when it was after school hours and we still had our school uniform on (apparently they were responsible until we got home after school) but outside of that they always knew what I was going to say to them when trying to tell me what I was allowed to do outside of that.

Not knowing the laws were you are, but in the US, schools are responcible from the time students leave the house till they return there on school days (Depending on other factors).

There are some additional areas where schools can have a say (For example, working jobs that would interfere with study time), but there is nothing I can think of to justify monitoring student behavor at home like this, especially if it was done after the parents returned to the house.
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Wikipedia and Universe
Senator
 
Posts: 3897
Founded: Jul 30, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Wikipedia and Universe » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:47 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:
Niur wrote:No see, the thing was that the webcam took a picture of the student doing something at his home, and used this as eveidence for so called "inproper behavior at home"


There is a difference between improper use of school resources and improper behaviour at home. Improper use of school resources could legitimately occur in a situation where the student is taking school resources home. In fact, as a teacher, I have disciplined student for this when textbooks or computer programs come back to school with inappropriate content on them or in a damaged condition. We also have disciplined students for inappropriate postings on school discussion boards even though these were done on a home computer outside school hours. They have also had privileges revoked for storing inappropriate images and pictures on their virtual storage space provided by the education department.

I understand. However, this had nothing to do with the student using the school property for inappropriate purposes. It had nothing even to do with the student using the computer whatsoever. As one article even said.
The Article wrote:This photo was not one intentionally taken by Robbins, but rather remotely, by the school.
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Meridistan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 145
Founded: Aug 19, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Meridistan » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:52 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:
NERVUN wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:I guess the most obvious questions to ask are - who owned the laptops in question? If it was the school or education department, then they have a right to dictate what they can be used for, and what they can't. And did the students sign any sort of terms of use agreement - if they did, the school has a perfectly legitimate right to punish them for violating it. I have a school laptop as an educator, and I am well aware of the rules governing it's use, including that the school can monitor what I do with it. Our students in Australia are subjected to the same terms as we are, and are not stupid enough to use school issued equipment to do things like this.

While I am a big advocate for protection of privacy, I really don't see that this is an issue, unless the laptops were gifted to the students or purchased by the families.

I'm trying to see where a school as the right to dictate behavor in a student's home or monitor student (AND non-student) actions without prior authorization.

It's one thing to say that a school laptop shouldn't be used to surf porn or to engage in a cyberattack on something, it is quite another to remotely turn on a webcam and watch students and their families in their homes.


My understanding is that an inappropriate picture was found on the laptop of a student. If the laptop belongs to the school, or the students are subject to an agreement on appropriate use, they have a right to check the contents of the laptop and what it is being used for.

I don't know enough technically about the webcam thing, but again if the school laptop is being used with a webcam, the school has a right to check what is being put onto it. Especially if the webcam is part of the package. Now if the school is found to be using the webcams to spy on students and families on a day-to-day basis, rather than confirming that the rules of use are being followed, that is a different story.


Possibly you missed this link?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... students/1

The Associated Press reports that the lawsuit alleges that the cameras captured images of Harriton High School students and their families as they undressed and in other compromising situations.


Which was sourced from this link: http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/02/18/24789.htm

"Defendants have never disclosed either to the plaintiffs or to the class members that the school district has the ability to capture webcam images from any location in which the personal laptop computer was kept."


Basically, as others have said, the school had the ability to activate the camera and use said camera to spy on what was going on in the room. This isn't the school scanning their computers to ensure proper usage, this is the school installing a video camera in your room to watch you whenever they feel like. To put it another way, if lend you a laptop, and without telling you, activate an embedded webcam that enabled me to see what was going on in your room without your knowledge or consent, would you be alright with that?

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Person012345
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16783
Founded: Feb 16, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Person012345 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:43 pm

I'd say that the reason a bunch of high school (I gather that's what this is?) teachers would want to have cameras in their students houses and bedrooms is fairly obvious.
Last edited by Person012345 on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Saint Jade IV
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6441
Founded: Jul 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Saint Jade IV » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:49 pm

NERVUN wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:
Laerod wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:I guess the most obvious questions to ask are - who owned the laptops in question? If it was the school or education department, then they have a right to dictate what they can be used for, and what they can't. And did the students sign any sort of terms of use agreement - if they did, the school has a perfectly legitimate right to punish them for violating it. I have a school laptop as an educator, and I am well aware of the rules governing it's use, including that the school can monitor what I do with it. Our students in Australia are subjected to the same terms as we are, and are not stupid enough to use school issued equipment to do things like this.

While I am a big advocate for protection of privacy, I really don't see that this is an issue, unless the laptops were gifted to the students or purchased by the families.

They most certainly do not have the right to monitor their student's keystrokes without telling them they're doing so and the webcam watching is definitely out of question.


Why not? If they are issuing the laptop to the student, and it is property of the school, they have a right to ensure that students are using school property in an appropriate fashion. My limited understanding of webcams leads me to refrain from commenting on the allegation of "spying" - since to my understanding, the school would only be able to see what the student has recorded or what the student is doing on the webcam itself. But I am most likely incorrect on the capabilities of webcams.

No, the school was able to turn on the cams, turning them into security cams. They were able to capture images of anyone in the room within the field of vision of the camera. Not just what the student was doing on the computer or what they recorded. ANYTHING.

My understanding is that students would be subject to a terms of use agreement - I don't see how they could be issued otherwise and have the school still comply with duty of care for one. Most students and parents simply sign this agreement without reading it thoroughly - which I suspect is the case here.

Court documents claim that at no time were the parents informed that the web cam could be remotely turned on and monitored without consent.


This is where my misunderstanding occurred. I was not aware that webcams could be turned on or off remotely - I was under the impression that only the student had control of them, and that the school was basing their information off information stored in the computer. The school definitely has no right to turn the webcams on to view things outside of the scope of student use. However, in my opinion, anything the student does themselves on the computer is fair game if they are owned by the school or attached to a terms of service agreement.
When you grow up, your heart dies.
It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of son of a b*tch or another.
RIP Dyakovo...we are all poorer for your loss.

User avatar
Querinos
Diplomat
 
Posts: 508
Founded: Jan 01, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Querinos » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Axis Nova wrote:http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/84715297.html?cmpid=15585797

You know, I really have to wonder what the thought process was here for the school district to think this is a good idea.

e: link to court documents http://craphound.com/robbins17.pdf


:shock: I had no idea Dr. Claw was a principal.

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