BIG TEACHER IS WATCHING YOU

[Tekania]

What is it exactly you think I'm saying?

That slapping my credit card information on a sticky on the front of the cash register is no more a valid use that using a school laptop to buy stuff online...

Stealing? What?

The laptop is for particular use... When it is used for thing to which it is not authorized, that is misappropriation of the equipment, which is a fancy government term for STEALING...

That rather depends on the situation, doesn't it?

No... Someone should have no more expectation of privacy using someone elses equipment, than they would have if they entered my house... Both may be subject to monitoring by the owner of said equipment... As such the contents of information passing through my equipment are not subject to privacy either, since I cannot "illegally intercept" stuff which I already own... any interception is by definition legal... unless someone is claiming I DO NOT OWN SAID EQUIPMENT, in which case we have a misappropriation of my property since someone is claiming ownership and control over my property... Walk into a Target, look around, you won't see monitoring warning all over the place, but there are tons of hidden security cameras in their stores... Where do they have warnings? Outside when the put up Cameras which monitor BEYOND Their property in lieu of public spaces...

This is no different than this issue.... webcam.. illicit monitoring, since it extends past their property...

keylogging, internet cache/history, file storage.... licit, it's confined to their property only...

[Greater Weedania]

I used to work for a college where the IT staff would monitor every e-mail sent, or that people would attempt to send.

If you tried to criticise the IT department in the course of an e-mail, you mysteriously received an error message even if you'd just sent an e-mail to the same person without the criticism and it went through.

I don't know if that practice continues there or not...

We have this at my school. We have competitions to see who can be banned from the computers for the day first.

[Nova Magna Germania]

What. The. Fuck.

For once we agree.

[Bazatia]

I used to work for a college where the IT staff would monitor every e-mail sent, or that people would attempt to send.

If you tried to criticise the IT department in the course of an e-mail, you mysteriously received an error message even if you'd just sent an e-mail to the same person without the criticism and it went through.

I don't know if that practice continues there or not...

We have this at my school. We have competitions to see who can be banned from the computers for the day first.

When theyt try to do stuff like shut off my internet, I just bypass them, our school's IT personnel are terrible at their jobs

[Unidos]

If it was just a LoJack thing to keep track of it if it were stolen, that's fine. Remote webcam access? what the hell, is this 1984? The administrators screwed themselves though; yeah, there's been times where schools overstepped their line in student's and teacher's personal lives, but this takes the cake simply due the number of students who may have been monitored at home.

Anyways, does anyone else agree that these people are enemies of the state for violating the 4th Amendment?

Enemies of the state? The 'state' was wiretapping without warrants not so long ago. Despite having a court in existence they could go to -after- the wiretapping and get a warrant. ( Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act established the court). Now if this had happened a few years ago, the school could have fired them and maybe the Feds would have hired them.

The school could have done what many outfits do. Just sink the unpleasant bits in a sea of legal pettifoggery.
' Why of course there's a webcam we can activate. In fact you agreed to it when you signed this ocnsent form." Probably woud have come in mighty handy as a defense agaisnt the suit.

But did these secret squirrel control freaks do this, Noooo!! This was their sekrit weapon to use against those naughty juvenile miscreants I doubt even the teachers knew.Hmm

If Pennsylvania has a 'sexting' law I wonder if the prinicpal and co-conspirators could be charged with violating it. Or as a Peeping Tom.?

I'd apply Heinlein's Razor here "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice."
.

[Unidos]

Stupidity ought to be a crime..

If stupidity was a crime, there'd never be enough cells to lock up the ocnvicted Probably a lot of repeat offenders too.

[Ifreann]

What is it exactly you think I'm saying?

That slapping my credit card information on a sticky on the front of the cash register is no more a valid use that using a school laptop to buy stuff online...

And here was I thinking that I was saying "It's a good idea to tell people you're using a key logger on the computer you're letting them use". Crazy me.

Stealing? What?

The laptop is for particular use... When it is used for thing to which it is not authorized, that is misappropriation of the equipment, which is a fancy government term for STEALING...

So, has anyone ever been convicted of theft for using loaned or rented equipment in a manner for which they were not authorised?

That rather depends on the situation, doesn't it?

No... Someone should have no more expectation of privacy using someone elses equipment, than they would have if they entered my house...

Uh, but people do have some and expectation to some degree of privacy on other people's property. You think a pool could get away with monitoring people getting changed? I doubt it.

Both may be subject to monitoring by the owner of said equipment... As such the contents of information passing through my equipment are not subject to privacy either, since I cannot "illegally intercept" stuff which I already own... any interception is by definition legal... unless someone is claiming I DO NOT OWN SAID EQUIPMENT, in which case we have a misappropriation of my property since someone is claiming ownership and control over my property... Walk into a Target, look around, you won't see monitoring warning all over the place, but there are tons of hidden security cameras in their stores... Where do they have warnings? Outside when the put up Cameras which monitor BEYOND Their property in lieu of public spaces...

Hidden cameras accomplish nothing that visible cameras do not. Those warnings are to deter criminals, as are the visible cameras, mirrors and security systems. Better to never be stolen from than to be stolen from and have the offender convicted.

This is no different than this issue.... webcam.. illicit monitoring, since it extends past their property...

keylogging, internet cache/history, file storage.... licit, it's confined to their property only...

I've never intended to say that they can't monitor with keyloggers, I've said that they shouldn't do it secretly. You mentioned liability before. Imagine someone did use one of the school laptops to buy something off the internet in ignorance of a secret keylogger, and an unscrupulous employee of the school uses that information to commit identity fraud. You can bet that the school will be facing a lawsuit for failing to warn people not to put any sensitive information on the laptops.

[Saint Jade IV]

[the peanut gallery speaks]

"The laptop computers that will be issued to all Lower Merion and Harriton students are the property of Lower Merion School District. Students are responsible for the appropriate use of these laptops both at school and at home. The laptops are for the use of students for educational purposes. All commercial, illegal, unethical and inappropriate use of these laptops is expressly prohibited....

...shall not be used:
...
for gambling or commercial purposes or for any non-school related
purposes;"

[1] The laptop is school property, not personal property...
[2] Students are responsible for their use at home as well as school
[3] Commercial use is prohibited...
[4] non-school related purposes are also prohibited...

Perhaps I should come to your parents store, write my credit card info on a yellow sticky... and plaster it on the front their register, then turn around get a lawyer and sue them for violating my privacy... Because this makes about as much sense as what you're saying... Which is none what-so-ever... The laptop's are not for processing credit cards... they are not for checking facebook... they are not for playing games, they are not for tons of shit... so to claim a right to privacy in a case where you're illegally appropriating equipment (read stealing) is absurd... There is absolutely no expectation of privacy on the property of another...

I figured that there would be some sort of agreement like this in place, since we have the same sort of thing here.

As I said, parents and students often don't read the fine print, and then whinge when there are consequences for inappropriate use. That being said, the whole spying on the families thing was wrong. Who invented a camera that could do that, and who made it available for retail sale?

[Ifreann]

[the peanut gallery speaks]

"The laptop computers that will be issued to all Lower Merion and Harriton students are the property of Lower Merion School District. Students are responsible for the appropriate use of these laptops both at school and at home. The laptops are for the use of students for educational purposes. All commercial, illegal, unethical and inappropriate use of these laptops is expressly prohibited....

...shall not be used:
...
for gambling or commercial purposes or for any non-school related
purposes;"

[1] The laptop is school property, not personal property...
[2] Students are responsible for their use at home as well as school
[3] Commercial use is prohibited...
[4] non-school related purposes are also prohibited...

Perhaps I should come to your parents store, write my credit card info on a yellow sticky... and plaster it on the front their register, then turn around get a lawyer and sue them for violating my privacy... Because this makes about as much sense as what you're saying... Which is none what-so-ever... The laptop's are not for processing credit cards... they are not for checking facebook... they are not for playing games, they are not for tons of shit... so to claim a right to privacy in a case where you're illegally appropriating equipment (read stealing) is absurd... There is absolutely no expectation of privacy on the property of another...

I figured that there would be some sort of agreement like this in place, since we have the same sort of thing here.

As I said, parents and students often don't read the fine print, and then whinge when there are consequences for inappropriate use. That being said, the whole spying on the families thing was wrong. Who invented a camera that could do that, and who made it available for retail sale?

Any webcam can do that with the proper software.

[Manahakatouki]

...... *Checks computer for webcam*

[Saint Jade IV]

I've never intended to say that they can't monitor with keyloggers, I've said that they shouldn't do it secretly. You mentioned liability before. Imagine someone did use one of the school laptops to buy something off the internet in ignorance of a secret keylogger, and an unscrupulous employee of the school uses that information to commit identity fraud. You can bet that the school will be facing a lawsuit for failing to warn people not to put any sensitive information on the laptops.

I would imagine that there would be something included in the agreement explaining that the school can access the files and computer history on the laptop at any time. Which to me is sufficient to warn students that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. Though, if they are obeying the terms of the agreement, they shouldn't have any problems.

[Ifreann]

I've never intended to say that they can't monitor with keyloggers, I've said that they shouldn't do it secretly. You mentioned liability before. Imagine someone did use one of the school laptops to buy something off the internet in ignorance of a secret keylogger, and an unscrupulous employee of the school uses that information to commit identity fraud. You can bet that the school will be facing a lawsuit for failing to warn people not to put any sensitive information on the laptops.

I would imagine that there would be something included in the agreement explaining that the school can access the files and computer history on the laptop at any time. Which to me is sufficient to warn students that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. Though, if they are obeying the terms of the agreement, they shouldn't have any problems.

Oh I should hope so. I've no problem with that, provided there's been a warning. But I think its important that they are warned for the school's own good.

[Axis Nova]

edit: Thanks mods

[Saint Jade IV]

[the peanut gallery speaks]

"The laptop computers that will be issued to all Lower Merion and Harriton students are the property of Lower Merion School District. Students are responsible for the appropriate use of these laptops both at school and at home. The laptops are for the use of students for educational purposes. All commercial, illegal, unethical and inappropriate use of these laptops is expressly prohibited....

...shall not be used:
...
for gambling or commercial purposes or for any non-school related
purposes;"

[1] The laptop is school property, not personal property...
[2] Students are responsible for their use at home as well as school
[3] Commercial use is prohibited...
[4] non-school related purposes are also prohibited...

Perhaps I should come to your parents store, write my credit card info on a yellow sticky... and plaster it on the front their register, then turn around get a lawyer and sue them for violating my privacy... Because this makes about as much sense as what you're saying... Which is none what-so-ever... The laptop's are not for processing credit cards... they are not for checking facebook... they are not for playing games, they are not for tons of shit... so to claim a right to privacy in a case where you're illegally appropriating equipment (read stealing) is absurd... There is absolutely no expectation of privacy on the property of another...

I figured that there would be some sort of agreement like this in place, since we have the same sort of thing here.

As I said, parents and students often don't read the fine print, and then whinge when there are consequences for inappropriate use. That being said, the whole spying on the families thing was wrong. Who invented a camera that could do that, and who made it available for retail sale?

Any webcam can do that with the proper software.

I'm clearly very naive about technological capabilities aren't I

[Mirkana]

Sic Anonymous on them. Then get them for possession of child pornography.

[Vojvodina-Nihon]

I figured that there would be some sort of agreement like this in place, since we have the same sort of thing here.

As I said, parents and students often don't read the fine print, and then whinge when there are consequences for inappropriate use. That being said, the whole spying on the families thing was wrong. Who invented a camera that could do that, and who made it available for retail sale?

Any webcam can do that with the proper software.

I'm clearly very naive about technological capabilities aren't I

Yes. If remote access is enabled, anyone who knows the administrator password to your computer can log in and, say, print stuff out at your home printer, turn on and off your webcam, play music through the speakers, and do pretty much anything else with devices attached to the computer. As well as access anything on the hard drive. I think, anyway -- the level of access you can have remotely depends to some degree on what kind of laptop it is, but as Ifreann suggested, I'm sure even the ones with only limited capabilities can have software installed to permit full remote access.

[Tekania]

I figured that there would be some sort of agreement like this in place, since we have the same sort of thing here.

As I said, parents and students often don't read the fine print, and then whinge when there are consequences for inappropriate use. That being said, the whole spying on the families thing was wrong. Who invented a camera that could do that, and who made it available for retail sale?

Any webcam can do that with the proper software.

I'm clearly very naive about technological capabilities aren't I

Yes. If remote access is enabled, anyone who knows the administrator password to your computer can log in and, say, print stuff out at your home printer, turn on and off your webcam, play music through the speakers, and do pretty much anything else with devices attached to the computer. As well as access anything on the hard drive. I think, anyway -- the level of access you can have remotely depends to some degree on what kind of laptop it is, but as Ifreann suggested, I'm sure even the ones with only limited capabilities can have software installed to permit full remote access.

Mac has a lot of remote capability, being built off a BSD derivative and all... That remote access (however) can be pretty constrained as to WHO and from WHERE it can be accessed...

[The Archiepelago]

*thinks of Pink Floyd song No Education*

we don't need no...web stalking.

[Tekania]

What is it exactly you think I'm saying?

That slapping my credit card information on a sticky on the front of the cash register is no more a valid use that using a school laptop to buy stuff online...

And here was I thinking that I was saying "It's a good idea to tell people you're using a key logger on the computer you're letting them use". Crazy me.

Stealing? What?

The laptop is for particular use... When it is used for thing to which it is not authorized, that is misappropriation of the equipment, which is a fancy government term for STEALING...

So, has anyone ever been convicted of theft for using loaned or rented equipment in a manner for which they were not authorised?

That rather depends on the situation, doesn't it?

No... Someone should have no more expectation of privacy using someone elses equipment, than they would have if they entered my house...

Uh, but people do have some and expectation to some degree of privacy on other people's property. You think a pool could get away with monitoring people getting changed? I doubt it.

Both may be subject to monitoring by the owner of said equipment... As such the contents of information passing through my equipment are not subject to privacy either, since I cannot "illegally intercept" stuff which I already own... any interception is by definition legal... unless someone is claiming I DO NOT OWN SAID EQUIPMENT, in which case we have a misappropriation of my property since someone is claiming ownership and control over my property... Walk into a Target, look around, you won't see monitoring warning all over the place, but there are tons of hidden security cameras in their stores... Where do they have warnings? Outside when the put up Cameras which monitor BEYOND Their property in lieu of public spaces...

Hidden cameras accomplish nothing that visible cameras do not. Those warnings are to deter criminals, as are the visible cameras, mirrors and security systems. Better to never be stolen from than to be stolen from and have the offender convicted.

This is no different than this issue.... webcam.. illicit monitoring, since it extends past their property...

keylogging, internet cache/history, file storage.... licit, it's confined to their property only...

I've never intended to say that they can't monitor with keyloggers, I've said that they shouldn't do it secretly. You mentioned liability before. Imagine someone did use one of the school laptops to buy something off the internet in ignorance of a secret keylogger, and an unscrupulous employee of the school uses that information to commit identity fraud. You can bet that the school will be facing a lawsuit for failing to warn people not to put any sensitive information on the laptops.

1. Signage does act as a deterrent from people doing illicit acts also in the presence of cameras...
2. Hidden Cameras DO in fact catch things that visible ones do not... namely people who go ahead and engage in an illicit acts because they do not THINK they are being monitored...
3. "Imagine someone using the laptop to buy something off the internet..."-in violation of provided usage rules of the laptop... When the school said "do not do this" in their student guidelines, I consider their liability over.... They can sue the agent which perpetrated the fraud him/her-self....
4. The laptops are, once again, the property of the school... the school can take possession of any laptop back, so claiming some need to warn people not to store sensitive information is equally absurd, since you're claiming some weird unknown protection of rights about storing personal information on the property of another... There was no privacy guarantees attached to the usage guidelines or laptop loan agreement... as is the NORMAL case when entering into storage agreements where your private information may be concerned... Nor is storing ones personal identity and financial information in line with the educational usage of the laptop to access electronic school resources...

[Nordicus]

*thinks of Pink Floyd song No Education*

we don't need no...web stalking.

"Teacher, leave those kids' webcams alone!"

[Spetsnazastan]

I think that installing webcam on computers=bad, but the school does have a right to monitor its files and use. However, the camera thing they did was wack. Also they could have warned the students...

[Bazatia]

I think that installing webcam on computers=bad, but the school does have a right to monitor its files and use. However, the camera thing they did was wack. Also they could have warned the students...

...or not done it.

[Saint Jade IV]

Yes. If remote access is enabled, anyone who knows the administrator password to your computer can log in and, say, print stuff out at your home printer, turn on and off your webcam, play music through the speakers, and do pretty much anything else with devices attached to the computer. As well as access anything on the hard drive. I think, anyway -- the level of access you can have remotely depends to some degree on what kind of laptop it is, but as Ifreann suggested, I'm sure even the ones with only limited capabilities can have software installed to permit full remote access.

Now that is a scary thought.

[Anthony Doll]

institutions have too much power.

the institutions we are raised to respect and admire are corrupt.

[Highly Upset Rat-Thing]

Also kind of creepy that the school can reprimand you for "inappropriate behavior in your own home."

Unless they've been supplying the students and their families with school-sponsored housing, no, the school can't.

Well, they did, allegedly. Just because its illegal doesn't mean you can't.

This was going to happen at some point. If a webcam is connected to a computer, it is on. It doesn't make it right, but what civil servant will not abuse whatever power they can? But, of course, the peons will be punished while the princes learn to hide better.