Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread ٢

[Baltenstein]

American forces were on the Other side of the damn country.

For the likes of bin Laden, having the mere presence of "crusaders" on the same soil as Mecca was a crime against God and Islam or something stupid like that.

For the likes of bin Laden, the presence of "Crusaders" in "Christian" lands was a crime as well.

I mean we did have guys in this very thread openly proclaiming Muslim rule over 2016 Spain, so...

[Baltenstein]

If they're right. Tensions would rise elsewhere however *looks to Israel*

Well yeah. Hopefully we'd get an actually anti-zionist government in power in what is technically the biggest and most powerful Arab state. Which would shift the balance of power massively in the right direction.

Sorry bro, but lol@Arab military "power".

[Conscentia]

*Looks at poll*

16 still voted "Other". I'm curious, what might they possibly be?

[Greater Tezdrian]

*Looks at poll*

16 still voted "Other". I'm curious, what might they possibly be?

Probably secular or nondenom.

I'm curious who our Ahmadi is.

[Conscentia]

*Looks at poll*
16 still voted "Other". I'm curious, what might they possibly be?

Probably secular or nondenom.
I'm curious who our Ahmadi is.

Non-denominational has it's own option though.

[Greater Tezdrian]

Probably secular or nondenom.
I'm curious who our Ahmadi is.

Non-denominational has it's own option though.

Yeah, but I can't fathom what the 'other' would be elsewise.

[Communist Xomaniax]

It doesn't make it right to insult a religion, even if you have the legal right to do so,

Why? Why is religion such a sacred cow that it can't ever be mocked or criticized?

and getting mad about it doesn't mean that I should leave the country.

You're mad about a fundamental tenet of Western society, I'd say that makes you pretty incompatible. Perhaps you would prefer a hugbox where criticism or mockery isn't allowed? Lots of places where mockery of islam is illegal. Maybe you'd fit in better, Ghurby definitely would.

He's repeatedly had the points he was making disregarded because of his religious beliefs,

It's because his points are fucking ridiculous, often conspiracy theories, and bigoted. It doesn't help that he's a wahhabi and an Al Qaeda supporter, and outright dismisses anyone who disagrees with him. Again, why should he get special treatment?

and just last page people were calling to ignore him.

Probably because of the aforementioned disgusting qualities. Doesn't really make people like him.

Mocking only generates anger and fuels biases, deepening divides between groups and generally poisoning constructive atmosphere.

Sounds like more apologist hogwash. If someone's response to getting mocked is to get angry and threaten violence, which is overwhelmingly what chafingly conservative muslims often do, then they need to grow up a thicker skin and put on their big kid pants. It's nobody else's job to cater to their pwecious, fwagile feefees. Besides, muslims radicalize and attack us no matter what. Rich muslims, poor muslims, they radicalize regardless of class, cultural, or ethnic backgrounds. Which tells me it's a cultural and religious problem on the part of the muslim world.

I try to treat everyone with some respect, whether or not I disagree with them, and even if I outright hate them.

Not all people are worthy of respect, nor are all beliefs.

I don't see why it should be our problem if a westerner doesn't want to take the time to understand differences between Muslims.

"People should like and respect us no matter what! Who cares if we put no effort into it! Death to critics! Better not draw Mohammad or criticize us or you might get killed!"

We shouldn't have to conform to their ideals because there are people like us who are doing bad things.

"Muslims shouldn't have to integrate into their host societies at all, but should still totally never be criticized, mocked, or disliked ever."

And if they want to pick a fight on us all, then they'll get a fight with us all, but I'm talking about if they criticize us all, then we have a right to, unitedly, defend ourselves verbally.

I'd hope you were talking about verbally, because if it came to blows, the muslim world would bleed white long before the West did. Hell, the US itself is so vastly overpowered economically and militarily it could flatten Mecca and Medina, and there's fuck all anyone could do about it. But yeah, sure, defend yourself verbally. Apologetics never gets old.

I think that should be the case for every religious group, not just Islam.

Then you need to break down and reform the muslim world, because that is not the case there. This is as opposed to the West, where everyone has equal rights.

Laws can't protect everyone.

Hoo boy, more terrorist apologism.

Sure, it's illegal to make threats or hurt, but it's still going to happen, and that doesn't mean that I have to feel sorry for someone that gets hurt because they said something stupid to the wrong person.

"Hey fuck you infidel, yeah you had your rights violated, but you hurt that muslim's feelings. That's so much worse!"

Plus, honestly, I've seen and heard far more people skewing what the so-called 'apologists' are saying than actual people who believe that.

Sure.

I also doubt that anyone would be out holding signs of condolence for a racist who got shot, or that we'd dedicate weeks of media coverage dissecting every moment of what happened.

Depends on how it happened, I'd imagine. If it was another islamic terror attack, for example on cartoonists or satirists), it'd probably be all over the news. Or if some christian pro-life type bombed an abortion clinic. Or really any sufficiently brutal form of violence, really.

One guy dies in Germany from an Islamic terrorist attack and it's still international news.

Probably because muslims, who make up a tiny minority of Europe's population but commit the lion's share of terror attacks, are flooding into Europe like pus from a lanced boil, overwhelmingly hold bigoted and extremist beliefs, commit crime, and refuse to work. When migrants flood in carrying a culture that ruins everywhere it gains some weight in, especially when that culture is so fundamentally alien to the native one, and starts bringing in mass amounts of terror and violence, it's going to make the news. Sorry to say buddy, but it's the muslim world's fault, not ours.

A double murder occured a few blocks away from where I live, and it got a 30 second segment on the local news. Why is Islamic terrorism in Europe a tragedy, and homicide on a multitudes-larger scale globally considered 'normal'?

Are you seriously asking why brutal, sudden attacks against masses of civilians by a tiny, insular community alien to the native one, gets more coverage that crime that has existed for as long as nations have?

I said people who insult other people shouldn't be surprised when crazy people from the group they insulted does something stupid.

Yeah, that's trying to excuse extremist idiocy.

[Communist Xomaniax]

Is it just me, or does his statement regarding "tempting a bull" sound a lot like the fallacious justifications made for things like "I didn't rape her, she was dressed in a way which tempted me"... Which reminds me of the reasoning behind full body coverings among ultra-conservative Muslims for women. "Cover up those ankles, or else we won't be able to control our powerful instincts to mate." When you read into it, it just begins to sound like self-loathing and self-deprecation.

Nailed it on the head. It's the same logic used by rapists, domestic abusers, and their apologists. It's a way of trying to shift the blame.

[Greater Tezdrian]

Ah, TNF. You never change.

[Communist Xomaniax]

Ah, TNF. You never change.

[Great Feng]

Non-denominational has it's own option though.

Yeah, but I can't fathom what the 'other' would be elsewise.

Christians like moi?

[Conscentia]

Yeah, but I can't fathom what the 'other' would be elsewise.

Christians like moi?

The poll asks "To which branch of Islam do you belong?".
Christianity is not a branch of Islam.

[Communist Xomaniax]

I know a number of saudi's, they are good people. Definitely more conservative than myself, but generally good kind people. A democracy would be a great first step towards liberalizing and ending the wahhabi domination.

An Arab Spring in Saudi Arabia would almost certainly result in a chaotic, ruined failed state lorded over by psychotic islamists or a nominally secular dictator. Like it did in most of the Middle East during the Arab Spring.

[Great Feng]

Christians like moi?

The poll asks "To which branch of Islam do you belong?".
Christianity is not a branch of Islam.

That's possibly why they answered other.

[North Arkana]

Part of the reason I've come to understand why it's so fucking hard to find Muslims who will actually take a meaningful stand against extremism (barring when it's their own head on the chopping block, but that's just self-preservation), is that in the end, a world ruled over and dominated by Islam is the end goal, in one form or another. The "moderates" work towards that their own way, while the extremists do it theirs. The problem comes in that both still have a similar end goal in mind, and even if the methods are disagreeable, there's not much desire to actively stop extremists because the end goal is still the same. "Hey, if our methods don't work, and the murderous ones get the end goal of ruling the world, what's there to complain about? Our desired outcome still came about, just in a different fashion." Self-preservation is pretty much all that makes "moderates" take up arms to push back extremists.

[Communist Xomaniax]

Part of the reason I've come to understand why it's so fucking hard to find Muslims who will actually take a meaningful stand against extremism (barring when it's their own head on the chopping block, but that's just self-preservation), is that in the end, a world ruled over and dominated by Islam is the end goal, in one form or another. The "moderates" work towards that their own way, while the extremists do it theirs. The problem comes in that both still have a similar end goal in mind, and even if the methods are disagreeable, there's not much desire to actively stop extremists because the end goal is still the same. "Hey, if our methods don't work, and the murderous ones get the end goal of ruling the world, what's there to complain about? Our desired outcome still came about, just in a different fashion." Self-preservation is pretty much all that makes "moderates" take up arms to push back extremists.

You know, I never thought of it that way. Huh. If that was the case, though, wouldn't there be similar problems with other proselytizing religions, especially since (and I hate to be so cliche, ugh) Christianity's ultimate goal is also worldwide dominant Christianity?

[North Arkana]

Part of the reason I've come to understand why it's so fucking hard to find Muslims who will actually take a meaningful stand against extremism (barring when it's their own head on the chopping block, but that's just self-preservation), is that in the end, a world ruled over and dominated by Islam is the end goal, in one form or another. The "moderates" work towards that their own way, while the extremists do it theirs. The problem comes in that both still have a similar end goal in mind, and even if the methods are disagreeable, there's not much desire to actively stop extremists because the end goal is still the same. "Hey, if our methods don't work, and the murderous ones get the end goal of ruling the world, what's there to complain about? Our desired outcome still came about, just in a different fashion." Self-preservation is pretty much all that makes "moderates" take up arms to push back extremists.

You know, I never thought of it that way. Huh. If that was the case, though, wouldn't there be similar problems with other proselytizing religions, especially since (and I hate to be so cliche, ugh) Christianity's ultimate goal is also worldwide dominant Christianity?

Why do you think Dominion Theology is a thing?

[Communist Xomaniax]

Why do you think Dominion Theology is a thing?

But dominion theology isn't popular anymore, and hasn't been for a while now.

[North Arkana]

Why do you think Dominion Theology is a thing?

But dominion theology isn't popular anymore, and hasn't been for a while now.

Of course not, Christianity has a good 600+ years on Islam. Religions seem to have stages of development. Islam is still in it's mid stages, but there is some question as to whether it will enter late stages.

[Mahdistan]

We believe in what Christians call the Antichrist as well, we call him the Dajjal. Considering the Mahdi is to be the pinnacle of righteousness and temperament, and the Dajjal will desire to destroy humanity, I think it can be established that it is the Dajjal and Antichrist who are the same, not the Mahdi and the Antichrist.

Yes, but the description of the Mahdi's actions seem similar to the Antichrist.
I'd like to pull up some quotes or links showing that, but the only things that would say the Mahdi is like the antichrist are anti-Islamic sites/articles, simply because well, if you're going to show anything is similar to the antichrist, you'd obviously be biased against it, you know?

Eh, I think it'd take quite a stretch of the imagination to come to that conclusion. Unless the Antichrist is going to be preying to God constantly or protecting the faithful from a roving genocidal maniac hellbent on destroying Islam, I think it can be concluded that there will be a clear difference.

[Mahdistan]

As a muslim i would like to know if anything to do with the right to bear arms is mentioned in the quran or any other islamic texts.

Well, we have a right to defend ourselves according to the Quran, and I doubt this just means with our fists. Guns are the swords of the modern day, so I assume arming one's self with one is encouraged. I myself am armed with more than one firearm.

[Mahdistan]

@TNF I see your response, but have to get up early tomorrow. I will respond then.

[Ghuraba Al-Khorusani]

Mahd you're right owning an item like a firearm is recommended for Muslims.

There is no reform for Islam the reformers are apostates.

[Communist Xomaniax]

@TNF I see your response, but have to get up early tomorrow. I will respond then.

That's fine, take your time.

[Communist Xomaniax]

There is no reform for Islam the reformers are apostates.

Have fun with your disease, poverty and violence I guess, us Westerners will enjoy our high living standards and civil rights.