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Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread ٢

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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To which branch of Islam do you belong?

Sunni
180
40%
Sunni (Sufi)
31
7%
Sunni (Salafist)
17
4%
Shia (Ja'fari)
21
5%
Shia (Sufi/Other)
17
4%
Ibadi
10
2%
Quranist
17
4%
Mahdist (Ahmadiyya/Mahdavia)
8
2%
Non-Denominational
45
10%
Other
104
23%
 
Total votes : 450

User avatar
Alsheb
Senator
 
Posts: 4415
Founded: Jul 07, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Alsheb » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:41 pm

Sandhora wrote:are you new to malaysia or are you defending the government action. please dont defend. indigenous people are being converted by state-sponsored missionaries since the 1970s in exchange for economic aid. of course the government dont report it. they dont ban, but the sharia police goes around poking around in peoples wedding telling us puppet shows and kuda kepang is HARAM lmfao. i saw it in my own eyes in Selangor

and i am a malay and the government of brunei and malaysia states that to become a malay you must be a muslim, what the crap is this?

im an ex muslim(religion) does that means im also an ex malay(ethnic group)??? does it makes sense to you

our culture is at stake belgian guy


I'm not defending anything. I'm just saying you are wrong to proclaim that there are forced conversions in Malaysia by any government institution. You can say that there is pressure, or some form of bribery by promising extra benefits, perhaps. But no forced conversions. And you in your previous post claimed that there was.

And no, you cannot "become" Malay. Malay is a race, you either are it or you're not. If you mean Malaysian, as in citizen of Malaysia, then no. You don't need to be Muslim in order to achieve Malaysian citizenship. As for being of Malay race: you cannot change race, mate. If you're not born Malay, you will never become it. That's how races work, I'm afraid. I am a Muslim, but I am not Malay. Nor can I ever become Malay, because it is not in my genes.

I suppose you are confused by the Malaysian rule that "every Malay is a Muslim". You seem to have misinterpreted this sentence and turned it around. What it means is that every Malay (meaning of Malay race) is automatically registered as a Muslim at birth. You can change religions, but no matter what you will always be registered as a Muslim in official records. Which means you will always remain subjected to Shariah law.

Is that a good rule? No, if you ask me. I consider it ridiculous to assume a person's religion based on his ethnicity. But this does not mean that you "have to convert" in order to become Malaysian. That is simply not true.

And, let me repeat this, in Malaysia you are actually better off being non-Muslim. A non-Muslim in Malaysia is allowed to drink, fornicate and what not as much as they want. A Muslim Malaysian however, risks getting arrested for that.

Again, there is a difference between culture and religion. You can perfectly well defend Malay culture, and I support defending that, and oppose extreme arabisation of Malaysia without being an islamophobic bigot.
Anti-Revisionist Marxist-Leninist and Zaydi Muslim Pan-Islamist
About Alsheb: An Islamic people's republic, based upon the principles of Marxism-Leninism and Zaydi Islam
Member of the Committee for Proletarian Morality
Pro: Communism, Marxism-Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, Axis of Resistance, Syrian Arab Republic, Ansarullah, Hezbollah, Palestine, Iran, Novorossiya, LGBTQ acceptance, feminism, internationalism, socialist patriotism.
Anti: Capitalism, imperialism, racism, fascism, zionism, liberalism, NATO, EU, Wahhabism, revisionism, trotskyism.
Freedom is nothing but a vain phantom when one class of men can starve another with impunity. Equality is nothing but a vain phantom when the rich, through monopoly, exercise the right of life or death over their like.
Jacques Roux

User avatar
Sandhora
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 132
Founded: Dec 18, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sandhora » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:12 am

Alsheb wrote:
Sandhora wrote:are you new to malaysia or are you defending the government action. please dont defend. indigenous people are being converted by state-sponsored missionaries since the 1970s in exchange for economic aid. of course the government dont report it. they dont ban, but the sharia police goes around poking around in peoples wedding telling us puppet shows and kuda kepang is HARAM lmfao. i saw it in my own eyes in Selangor

and i am a malay and the government of brunei and malaysia states that to become a malay you must be a muslim, what the crap is this?

im an ex muslim(religion) does that means im also an ex malay(ethnic group)??? does it makes sense to you

our culture is at stake belgian guy


I'm not defending anything. I'm just saying you are wrong to proclaim that there are forced conversions in Malaysia by any government institution. You can say that there is pressure, or some form of bribery by promising extra benefits, perhaps. But no forced conversions. And you in your previous post claimed that there was.

And no, you cannot "become" Malay. Malay is a race, you either are it or you're not. If you mean Malaysian, as in citizen of Malaysia, then no. You don't need to be Muslim in order to achieve Malaysian citizenship. As for being of Malay race: you cannot change race, mate. If you're not born Malay, you will never become it. That's how races work, I'm afraid. I am a Muslim, but I am not Malay. Nor can I ever become Malay, because it is not in my genes.

I suppose you are confused by the Malaysian rule that "every Malay is a Muslim". You seem to have misinterpreted this sentence and turned it around. What it means is that every Malay (meaning of Malay race) is automatically registered as a Muslim at birth. You can change religions, but no matter what you will always be registered as a Muslim in official records. Which means you will always remain subjected to Shariah law.

Is that a good rule? No, if you ask me. I consider it ridiculous to assume a person's religion based on his ethnicity. But this does not mean that you "have to convert" in order to become Malaysian. That is simply not true.

And, let me repeat this, in Malaysia you are actually better off being non-Muslim. A non-Muslim in Malaysia is allowed to drink, fornicate and what not as much as they want. A Muslim Malaysian however, risks getting arrested for that.

Again, there is a difference between culture and religion. You can perfectly well defend Malay culture, and I support defending that, and oppose extreme arabisation of Malaysia without being an islamophobic bigot.


imm referring to the mindset of the people, to become malay you must be muslim. kinda sad that they will exclude you from the community if youre not a muslim even tho you malay..

but i live in Singapore, an extremely secular malay-chinese-indian island where muslims and "muslims by paper" live side by side in harmony so idgaf

i drink in singapore very lucky, but if i drink in malaysia, i will get caught since, i talked and look malay even tho im a non-muslim.. thats why i prefer going drinking in indonesia rather than malaysia haha.


anyways i like malaysia it is a great nation.. i hope they will become a greater power in the future but they need sort out their differences first... i hope you having a great time there in malaysia belgian guy.. and hati hati sama najib razak itu HAHA
Last edited by Sandhora on Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
"From Madagascar, to Indonesia, Philippines, Taiwan, Melanesia, Hawaii, New Zealand, the rest of Polynesia and all the way to Easter Island, The Island People of the Austronesians are the greatest sea faring people in the world" http://i.imgur.com/f2s7RMH.jpg

I have the best factbook, its true: beautiful

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:55 am

Let's all make dua for safety >>
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18284
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:27 am

Assalamu alakium, bretheren and sisters
Ahmadi Muslim • Absolute Justice • Star Wars fan • Love For All, Hatred For None • trucker

Want to know more about Ahmadiyya? Click here!

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:40 pm

Jolthig wrote:Assalamu alakium, bretheren and sisters

Wa Aleykum Salaam
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:49 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:San Gennaro's blood didn't liquefy. That's never a good sign. :?

As a Muslim, this shouldn't frighten me.

Yet, it does.
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:54 pm

Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:
The Princes of the Universe wrote:San Gennaro's blood didn't liquefy. That's never a good sign. :?

As a Muslim, this shouldn't frighten me.

Yet, it does.

The factions of the world are not set up enough for an apocalyptic war where the Mahdi and Dajjal reveal themselves.
Last edited by Jochizyd Republic on Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:00 pm

Jochizyd Republic wrote:
Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:As a Muslim, this shouldn't frighten me.

Yet, it does.

The factions of the world are not set up enough for an apocalyptic war where the Mahdi and Dajjal reveal themselves.

>tfw the Mahdi might already have come :^)
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:07 pm

Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:
Jochizyd Republic wrote:The factions of the world are not set up enough for an apocalyptic war where the Mahdi and Dajjal reveal themselves.

>tfw the Mahdi might already have come :^)

Ahmadis why.
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:10 pm

If Mirza did not claim to be the Messiah, his credibility would be sound and he would get more followers.
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:10 pm

Jochizyd Republic wrote:
Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:>tfw the Mahdi might already have come :^)

Ahmadis why.

There's, like, one and a half Ahmadis here.
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:11 pm

Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:
Jochizyd Republic wrote:Ahmadis why.

There's, like, one and a half Ahmadis here.

I know, :p
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:15 pm

Jochizyd Republic wrote:If Mirza did not claim to be the Messiah, his credibility would be sound and he would get more followers.

I think it says something in his favour that he persisted in making that claim, even though it pretty much wrecked his hitherto spotless reputation as a Muslim apologist.
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:25 pm

Also... yet another terrorist attack.

Let's be honest, it's probably Takfiri-inspired.
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18284
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:01 pm

I finished the Qu'ran today! :D

Mashallah!
Ahmadi Muslim • Absolute Justice • Star Wars fan • Love For All, Hatred For None • trucker

Want to know more about Ahmadiyya? Click here!

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:37 pm

Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:Also... yet another terrorist attack.

Let's be honest, it's probably Takfiri-inspired.

Almost definitely. Europe...should really just vet it's immigrants.
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:38 pm

Jochizyd Republic wrote:
Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:Also... yet another terrorist attack.

Let's be honest, it's probably Takfiri-inspired.

Almost definitely. Europe...should really just vet it's immigrants.


Here comes the increase in hate towards Muslims.

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:39 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Jochizyd Republic wrote:Almost definitely. Europe...should really just vet it's immigrants.


Here comes the increase in hate towards Muslims.

We can take it.
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:41 pm

Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Here comes the increase in hate towards Muslims.

We can take it.


Perhaps.

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:54 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Jochizyd Republic wrote:Almost definitely. Europe...should really just vet it's immigrants.


Here comes the increase in hate towards Muslims.

It can be ignored.

What is annoying is that the New Left has highjacked Islamic Apologism among non Muslims.

Making it very hard for those interested in moderation to distance themselves from SJWs
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:03 pm

Jochizyd Republic wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Here comes the increase in hate towards Muslims.

It can be ignored.

What is annoying is that the New Left has highjacked Islamic Apologism among non Muslims.

Making it very hard for those interested in moderation to distance themselves from SJWs

Yeah, cause the kufr were just dying to be apologists for Islam before the SJWs stepped in...
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:11 pm

Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:
Jochizyd Republic wrote:It can be ignored.

What is annoying is that the New Left has highjacked Islamic Apologism among non Muslims.

Making it very hard for those interested in moderation to distance themselves from SJWs

Yeah, cause the kufr were just dying to be apologists for Islam before the SJWs stepped in...

Hmm? No, I mean Social Justice extremists have basically become the face of Islamic apologism in Western countries.
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:14 pm

Jochizyd Republic wrote:
Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:Yeah, cause the kufr were just dying to be apologists for Islam before the SJWs stepped in...

Hmm? No, I mean Social Justice extremists have basically become the face of Islamic apologism in Western countries.

Well it's not like anyone else was stepping up to the job, I mean :p
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

User avatar
Jochizyd Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6586
Founded: Jun 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Jochizyd Republic » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:15 pm

Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:
Jochizyd Republic wrote:Hmm? No, I mean Social Justice extremists have basically become the face of Islamic apologism in Western countries.

Well it's not like anyone else was stepping up to the job, I mean :p

Genuine Moderates were.
The Sons and Daughters of Jochi Ride Out Again!
For The Khan! For The State! For Faith and For Heritage!
Muslim and Tengrist Clerical Fascist State. Not my rl views.

Just Call Me Joch.
Jochistan reincarnated. Destroyed for my sins at 9300+ Posts.
See Space, You Cowboy

User avatar
Hashemite Arabiyah
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 138
Founded: Dec 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Hashemite Arabiyah » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:18 pm

Jochizyd Republic wrote:
Hashemite Arabiyah wrote:Well it's not like anyone else was stepping up to the job, I mean :p

Genuine Moderates were.

Fair point.

So...

What do we make of these verses:

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp ... 8&verse=12
https://quran.com/9/5
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp ... 5&verse=51
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp ... 9&verse=29
God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star
-- Qur'an 24:35


Making a mod's eyes well up with bitter tears of disillusionment isn't actionable - but is it necessarily wise?
-- The Archregimancy

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