Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread ٢

[Free Rhenish States]

Indeed, friend, nobody is perfect.

All we can do is make sure that we are not corrupted in the same way that ISIS is in the future. That we can be more tolerant towards each other than in the middle ages. As of now, we can only hope.

Why hope, buddy? We ourselves can be examples of peaceful existence between Muslims and Christians. ^^

[Camaalbakrius]

All we can do is make sure that we are not corrupted in the same way that ISIS is in the future. That we can be more tolerant towards each other than in the middle ages. As of now, we can only hope.

Why hope, buddy? We ourselves can be examples of peaceful existence between Muslims and Christians. ^^

I know. But it takes more than two people to change a generation. But two people is a start

[Free Rhenish States]

Why hope, buddy? We ourselves can be examples of peaceful existence between Muslims and Christians. ^^

I know. But it takes more than two people to change a generation. But two people is a start

Of course, friend, of course.

[Yaramaqui]

לק״י

All we can do is make sure that we are not corrupted in the same way that ISIS is in the future. That we can be more tolerant towards each other than in the middle ages. As of now, we can only hope.

Why hope, buddy? We ourselves can be examples of peaceful existence between Muslims and Christians. ^^

And may such an existence occur between us as well.

[Yaramaqui]

לק״י

Yes, groups like ISIS do in fact teach incorrectings of Islam in order to legitimize their wrongdoing. For example, they claim that raping unbelievers is okay, and generally, killing and wrongdoing against the unbelievers, and while a person who isn´t familiar with Islam might find this reasoning as legitimate, think of it, we're not doing it to our people, so it's okay, but in truth, Islam and the Prophet (saw) are against it. In a similar manner, they also kill Muslims and justify it by saying they're not Muslims because they criticize them, again, it might sound true for an incompetent person, but in the real Islam, they are not entitled to give takfir to other people (to give takfir = declare sb an infidel).

I see. It's quite similar to the witch burnings during the middle ages. Goes to show that all religions have bad histories.

I see. It's quite similar to the witch burnings during the middle ages. Goes to show that all religions have bad histories.

Indeed, friend, nobody is perfect.

Forgive me for intruding on this conversation, but indeed the same can be applied to us. A man known as Yohanan Girhan forced other populations such as the Edomites and some Nabateans to convert to Judaism during the time of the Ḥashmona’im who ruled over the land of Yehudah from 140 BCE – 37 BCE. He threatened exile or death to these people if they did not convert. Judaism does not support this whatsoever, yet it happened. Although most of these people stuck to their former beliefs or became Christians during the time of the spread of Christianity later on in history, and later on many of them could have became Muslim as well.

[Alsheb]

The hadiths are contradictory on that, but then again it is often hard to say which ones are trustworthy. I do believe Joch once made a point that the blatantly homophobic hadiths tend to be from untrustworthy sources.

Most importantly is that the Qur'an does not in any way, shape or form forsee in any physical (or non-physical for that matter) punishment for homosexuals. There is but one quote in the Qur'an that by some is interpreted as chastising homosexuals, although others claim it refers to pederasty and the like, but this verse also does not mandate a punishment. So no, basic Qur'anic law does not command a punishment for homosexuals, nor does it list it as a crime.
So that would count as leaving them alone, yes.

Would you say that there is such a things as Radical Islam? I'm wondering because I'm not Muslim, and many people deny any such existence of Radical Islam. So i'm going to ask you all, since really, only you can tell me whether radical islam exists. I can't trust a generalization about Islam made my a non-Muslim.

Well yes, it does exist, definitely. But I don't like the term "radical Islam". Because being "radical" normally means you go all the way in obeying and living according to the ideology or religion you follow.

So morphologically, it doesn't actually make much sense to call groups like Daesh "radical Muslims", since they violate basically every principle Islam contains. The only thing they keep is the belief in one God and the Prophet Muhammad, which is why they are technically still Muslims. But I wouldn't call them "radical Muslims", since that term blemishes the name of Islam without reason.

Usually, many Muslims call groups like Daesh or al-Qaeda just Salafists, Wahhabis or takfiris. Although I suppose extremists would work too.

[Alsheb]

לק״י

I see. It's quite similar to the witch burnings during the middle ages. Goes to show that all religions have bad histories.

Indeed, friend, nobody is perfect.

Forgive me for intruding on this conversation, but indeed the same can be applied to us. A man known as Yohanan Girhan forced other populations such as the Edomites and some Nabateans to convert to Judaism during the time of the Ḥashmona’im who ruled over the land of Yehudah from 140 BCE – 37 BCE. He threatened exile or death to these people if they did not convert. Judaism does not support this whatsoever, yet it happened. Although most of these people stuck to their former beliefs or became Christians during the time of the spread of Christianity later on in history, and later on many of them could have became Muslim as well.

Indeed, there are wicked people in every religion. All three Abrahamic religions have multiple cases of forced conversion, from the Jewish rulers of the Hashmona'im over the Teutuonic Order in Livonia to the Arab conquerors of Persia.

[Camaalbakrius]

לק״י





Forgive me for intruding on this conversation, but indeed the same can be applied to us. A man known as Yohanan Girhan forced other populations such as the Edomites and some Nabateans to convert to Judaism during the time of the Ḥashmona’im who ruled over the land of Yehudah from 140 BCE – 37 BCE. He threatened exile or death to these people if they did not convert. Judaism does not support this whatsoever, yet it happened. Although most of these people stuck to their former beliefs or became Christians during the time of the spread of Christianity later on in history, and later on many of them could have became Muslim as well.

Indeed, there are wicked people in every religion. All three Abrahamic religions have multiple cases of forced conversion, from the Jewish rulers of the Hashmona'im over the Teutuonic Order in Livonia to the Arab conquerors of Persia.

Yes. It is sad that religion has been forced upon people for centuries. During the time of European colonialization, conquers claimed that forced conversion of the natives was for their own good. There is no perfect religion. Its unfortunate, but that's just the way the world works. We are imperfect people.

[Jochizyd Republic]

What's everybody's opinion on Shari'a Law?

As Shariah is literally Islamic Morality and Ritual, It can be good or bad depending on who puts it into effect.

I think the Islamic Law as layed down by Golden Age philosophers of Jurispudence such as Ibn Rushd, Ibn Arabi, and the moderating force of Al Ghazali and the Alims after him is for the most part pretty ideal.

[Jamzmania]

לק״י





Forgive me for intruding on this conversation, but indeed the same can be applied to us. A man known as Yohanan Girhan forced other populations such as the Edomites and some Nabateans to convert to Judaism during the time of the Ḥashmona’im who ruled over the land of Yehudah from 140 BCE – 37 BCE. He threatened exile or death to these people if they did not convert. Judaism does not support this whatsoever, yet it happened. Although most of these people stuck to their former beliefs or became Christians during the time of the spread of Christianity later on in history, and later on many of them could have became Muslim as well.

Indeed, there are wicked people in every religion. All three Abrahamic religions have multiple cases of forced conversion, from the Jewish rulers of the Hashmona'im over the Teutuonic Order in Livonia to the Arab conquerors of Persia.

Islam just seems to do it better.

[Alsheb]

Indeed, there are wicked people in every religion. All three Abrahamic religions have multiple cases of forced conversion, from the Jewish rulers of the Hashmona'im over the Teutuonic Order in Livonia to the Arab conquerors of Persia.

Islam just seems to do it better.

Whereas the fact that all of the Americas and half of Africa is Christian surely happened peacefully over time, amirite?

[Runeria]

Islam just seems to do it better.

Whereas the fact that all of the Americas and half of Africa is Christian surely happened peacefully over time, amirite?

The spread of Christianity was in general the most peaceful part of European colonialism

[Free Rhenish States]

Indeed, there are wicked people in every religion. All three Abrahamic religions have multiple cases of forced conversion, from the Jewish rulers of the Hashmona'im over the Teutuonic Order in Livonia to the Arab conquerors of Persia.

Islam just seems to do it better.

This statement is false, but you can use this trick against those whose ancestors weren´t drawn in fire and blood at hands of the warriors of christ, I´m sure.

[Seraven]

Indonesia is in the middle of pretty...not good problems.

[Free Rhenish States]

Indonesia is in the middle of pretty...not good problems.

Ok

[Camaalbakrius]

Islam just seems to do it better.

This statement is false, but you can use this trick against those whose ancestors weren´t drawn in fire and blood at hands of the warriors of christ, I´m sure.

If its any consolation, crusades have been deemed heretical and the knights Templars were excommunicated. We've learned from our mistakes.

[Hindia Belanda]

Indonesia is in the middle of pretty...not good problems.

Meh, it's nothing new.

[Greater Pareidolia]

Indonesia is in the middle of pretty...not good problems.

Meh, it's nothing new.

Indonesia's falling into deeper shit every day.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thousands-of-muslim-hardliners-to-rally-in-jakarta-over-alleged-blasphemy-by-governor

Why is it always you guys?

[Hindia Belanda]

Meh, it's nothing new.

Indonesia's falling into deeper shit every day.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thousands-of-muslim-hardliners-to-rally-in-jakarta-over-alleged-blasphemy-by-governor

Why is it always you guys?

Those protesters are pawns of Ahok's opponents who would rather see him jailed for allegedly 'blaspheming' against the Quran (which he didn't). Ahok didn't actually talk shit about the Quran, he merely used a verse from the Quran as a reference for the voters to be smarter when they cast their votes in the upcoming elections. But assume some of his opponents took advantage of the incident and turned it into a blasphemy row, by reportedly editing a footage of him talking to a bunch of people so as to look as though he talked shit about the Quran.

In this case, I'd say it's more politically and racially-driven than religious, as most Islamic organisations in the country (with the exception of the FPI, of course) such as the Nadlatul Ulema have spoken out against the protests. FPI is a real problem in Indonesia, but at least they don't buy into Saudi's Wahhabi cause.

[Jamzmania]

How do Muslims reconcile the Satanic Verses? These are the verses which Mohammed revealed which he claimed were from God but were actually from Satan. The story of the Satanic Verses is reported in several early Muslim sources, including the histories of Ibn Ishaq and Al-Tabari. Here is a passage from Ibn Ishaq (pg. 165-166) concerning this event:

Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. b. Ka’b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down ‘By the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire,’ [beginning of Sura 53] and when he reached His words ‘Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other’, Satan, when he was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue ‘these are the exalted Gharaniq [Numidian cranes] whose intercession is approved.’ When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. al-Mughira who was an old man and could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, ‘Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved.’

The news reached the prophet’s companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, ‘What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you.’ The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. Then God sent down: ‘We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish verses, God being knowing and wise.’ [Quran 22:52] Thus God relieved his prophet’s grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation.

How can you trust a prophet who cannot tell the difference between a revelation from Satan and a revelation from God?

Now I will connect this back to the Old Testament. One of the most popular Old Testament prophecies of Mohammed is Deuteronomy 18:18-19 (NKJV):

18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

If Muslims claim that these are uncorrupted verses, how then can they dismiss the very next verse (18:20)?

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

Given this verse, I think it is safe to say that Moses would have considered Mohammed a false prophet, considering he spoke "a word in [God's] name, which [God did] not command him to speak," as testified by the angel Gabriel himself in the passage above.

[Free Rhenish States]

How do Muslims reconcile the Satanic Verses? These are the verses which Mohammed revealed which he claimed were from God but were actually from Satan. The story of the Satanic Verses is reported in several early Muslim sources, including the histories of Ibn Ishaq and Al-Tabari. Here is a passage from Ibn Ishaq (pg. 165-166) concerning this event:

Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. b. Ka’b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down ‘By the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire,’ [beginning of Sura 53] and when he reached His words ‘Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other’, Satan, when he was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue ‘these are the exalted Gharaniq [Numidian cranes] whose intercession is approved.’ When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. al-Mughira who was an old man and could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, ‘Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved.’

The news reached the prophet’s companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, ‘What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you.’ The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. Then God sent down: ‘We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish verses, God being knowing and wise.’ [Quran 22:52] Thus God relieved his prophet’s grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation.

How can you trust a prophet who cannot tell the difference between a revelation from Satan and a revelation from God?

Now I will connect this back to the Old Testament. One of the most popular Old Testament prophecies of Mohammed is Deuteronomy 18:18-19 (NKJV):

18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

If Muslims claim that these are uncorrupted verses, how then can they dismiss the very next verse (18:20)?

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

Given this verse, I think it is safe to say that Moses would have considered Mohammed a false prophet, considering he spoke "a word in [God's] name, which [God did] not command him to speak," as testified by the angel Gabriel himself in the passage above.

1. I know the "Satanic Verses" allegation, this is a hoax that has been refuted before.
2. Prophet in the old testament is someone who's just a precher, "rasul" (messenger) in Islam is a different term.
Can´t give you a detailed answer at the moment, sorry, you'll have to take it on trust.

[Serenvia]

Meh, it's nothing new.

Indonesia's falling into deeper shit every day.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thousands-of-muslim-hardliners-to-rally-in-jakarta-over-alleged-blasphemy-by-governor

Why is it always you guys?

>why is it always you guys

Maybe if you crawled out of that hole and started to travel there, your opinion may be broadened and enhanced.

And I daresay Indonesia is a fundamentally 'free country' especially when we look at all of its quasi authoritarian neighbors.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Meh, it's nothing new.

Indonesia's falling into deeper shit every day.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thousands-of-muslim-hardliners-to-rally-in-jakarta-over-alleged-blasphemy-by-governor

Why is it always you guys?

"Muslims are the most overreacting people in the world. They're always like this. Rioting over absolutely nothing. Not like us*
*BLM burns down a city block in the background*

[Bhikkustan]

Indonesia's falling into deeper shit every day.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thousands-of-muslim-hardliners-to-rally-in-jakarta-over-alleged-blasphemy-by-governor

Why is it always you guys?

>why is it always you guys

Maybe if you crawled out of that hole and started to travel there, your opinion may be broadened and enhanced.

And I daresay Indonesia is a fundamentally 'free country' especially when we look at all of its quasi authoritarian neighbors.

You can be arrested and thrown in jail for being communist. Super free.

[Serenvia]

>why is it always you guys

Maybe if you crawled out of that hole and started to travel there, your opinion may be broadened and enhanced.

And I daresay Indonesia is a fundamentally 'free country' especially when we look at all of its quasi authoritarian neighbors.

You can be arrested and thrown in jail for being communist. Super free.

Well communism is still a taboo topic.

Still de facto AND de jure more free than other SEA countries.