Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread ٢

[El-Amin Caliphate]

More on adultery and fornication:
http://legacy.quran.com/4/25
http://legacy.quran.com/24/3

[Jochizyd Republic]

People have every reason to be hostile towards homosexuality and LGBT. As the lifestyle corrupts society.

Of course people who say Gays should be rounded up and killed are insane. Very few people argue that. Even those that say the Punishment, if tried, was death almost always acknowlege that the requirements are impossible to meet if it is not a public sex act like in the time of Lot.

Liberalism is tolerant of all except that which disagrees with it, more often than not.

Does it hurt/cause harm to anyone or society in general?

No? Then it's fine.

ALso, being LGBT isn't a "lifestyle", being straight isn't a lifestyle, being gay isn't a lifestyle.

Both are sexual lifestyles. Straight is the correct one.

[White Chrobatia]

Does it hurt/cause harm to anyone or society in general?

No? Then it's fine.

ALso, being LGBT isn't a "lifestyle", being straight isn't a lifestyle, being gay isn't a lifestyle.

Both are sexual lifestyles. Straight is the correct one.

So, some people are born incorrect?

[Herskerstad]

So lashes for unmarried and execution for married adulterers?

Where does it say execution for adulterers?
And an adulterer can only be married. There's no such thing as a unmarried adulterer. Those are called fornicators.
https://www.google.com/#q=adultery, https://www.google.com/#q=fornication

Don't be cute. You find passages in both Bukhari and Muslim that specifically advocate for such.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Where does it say execution for adulterers?
And an adulterer can only be married. There's no such thing as a unmarried adulterer. Those are called fornicators.
https://www.google.com/#q=adultery, https://www.google.com/#q=fornication

Don't be cute. You find passages in both Bukhari and Muslim that specifically advocate for such.

Cute? What?

[Jochizyd Republic]

There is no major religion that says homosexuality is okay.

Religion isn't about following what you want. It really isn't.

Liberals and other types flood every religious discussion with this crap. Give it up. No major religion will ever accept homosexuality, drugs, adultery, or whatever else you want people to do.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Don't be cute. You find passages in both Bukhari and Muslim that specifically advocate for such.

Cute? What?

Nvm, I understand.
Also, any Ahadith that contradicts the Holy Qur'an should not be used. I hope the Ulama know that.

[White Chrobatia]

There is no major religion that says homosexuality is okay.

From what research I've done into it, Therevada (at least, maybe it applies to other denominations as well) Buddhism is completely silent on homosexuality.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Where does it say execution for adulterers?
And an adulterer can only be married. There's no such thing as a unmarried adulterer. Those are called fornicators.
https://www.google.com/#q=adultery, https://www.google.com/#q=fornication

Don't be cute. You find passages in both Bukhari and Muslim that specifically advocate for such.

For fornication? no. For Adultery? yes.

Along with passages saying that four witnesses and a confession are what is the minimum necessary requirement for punishment.

[Herskerstad]

So lashes for unmarried and execution for married adulterers?

Married adulterers require four witnesses and a confession system.

They cannot be punished in any way, legally, unless they

1. Did the act basically in public
or
2. Confessed that they did it

It's a legal fiction and It cannot be punishable under any normal circumstance. Are people committing adultery in the streets?

Sometimes, incidentally, yes.

Though in the historic model it seems as if the four witnesses has been more of a demand for defence than a prosecution, adding to the already bad enough situation of a woman's testimony only being worth half that of a man, one can see how injustices would arise from such.

[Jochizyd Republic]

There is no major religion that says homosexuality is okay.

From what research I've done into it, Therevada (at least, maybe it applies to other denominations as well) Buddhism is completely silent on homosexuality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_ ... a_Buddhism

[Herskerstad]

Cute? What?

Nvm, I understand.
Also, any Ahadith that contradicts the Holy Qur'an should not be used. I hope the Ulama know that.

Oh, so even if it is Sahih and not on the significantly disputed level, one is to throw it out? Why not compile a list of usable hadiths then? 'Which incidentally was the intention the first time around by the grading'

[El-Amin Caliphate]

...a woman's testimony only being worth half that of a man, one can see how injustices would arise from such.

Ok.

[Internationalist Bastard]

There is no major religion that says homosexuality is okay.

From what research I've done into it, Therevada (at least, maybe it applies to other denominations as well) Buddhism is completely silent on homosexuality.

Actually, if you don't mind me stepping in, we generally hold homosexuality is fine, but the clergy usually says sex not done for reproduction is sinful. So basically, it's cool to be gay if you don't have sex. A number of monastaries even encourage relationships among monks

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Nvm, I understand.
Also, any Ahadith that contradicts the Holy Qur'an should not be used. I hope the Ulama know that.

Oh, so even if it is Sahih and not on the significantly disputed level, one is to throw it out? Why not compile a list of usable hadiths then? 'Which incidentally was the intention the first time around by the grading'

Actually, iirc, Al-Bukhari compiled SaHeeH al-Bukhari with not much intention on them being SaHeeH. Whether this is Quranist propaganda or not, I'll look it up. And just because one person or a group of people did it doesn't make them right.
And yes, if a hadith contradicts the Holy Qur'an, SaHeeH or not, it should not be used.

[Herskerstad]

From what research I've done into it, Therevada (at least, maybe it applies to other denominations as well) Buddhism is completely silent on homosexuality.

Actually, if you don't mind me stepping in, we generally hold homosexuality is fine, but the clergy usually says sex not done for reproduction is sinful. So basically, it's cool to be gay if you don't have sex. A number of monastaries even encourage relationships among monks

In the Islamic context it becomes all the more muddled when one includes the schools of jurisprudence, local traditions, and generally dispensation of Hudud crimes in modern times.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Married adulterers require four witnesses and a confession system.

They cannot be punished in any way, legally, unless they

1. Did the act basically in public
or
2. Confessed that they did it

It's a legal fiction and It cannot be punishable under any normal circumstance. Are people committing adultery in the streets?

Sometimes, incidentally, yes.

Though in the historic model it seems as if the four witnesses has been more of a demand for defence than a prosecution.

Even so. Adultery was only punished by death once in the History of the entire Ottoman Empire.

And similarly few times in the Abbasids.

In the Time Of the Salaf, a Man was convicted. After the first stone struck him, he ran. And Umar (ra) ordered him to be let go. Alhamdulillah.

Even if the requirements are met. Mercy is practically proscribed.

A quite relevant sermon here by the Former Grand Mufti of Al Azhar and Egypt on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TxNntu2DoM

It's far more lenient than what people who cheat on their spouses deserve.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

From what research I've done into it, Therevada (at least, maybe it applies to other denominations as well) Buddhism is completely silent on homosexuality.

Actually, if you don't mind me stepping in, we generally hold homosexuality is fine, but the clergy usually says sex not done for reproduction is sinful. So basically, it's cool to be gay if you don't have sex. A number of monastaries even encourage relationships among monks

You're Buddhist?

[Internationalist Bastard]

Actually, if you don't mind me stepping in, we generally hold homosexuality is fine, but the clergy usually says sex not done for reproduction is sinful. So basically, it's cool to be gay if you don't have sex. A number of monastaries even encourage relationships among monks

In the Islamic context it becomes all the more muddled when one includes the schools of jurisprudence, local traditions, and generally dispensation of Hudud crimes in modern times.

Of course, just wanted to add a Buddhist input to the debate, if you don't mind

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Actually, if you don't mind me stepping in, we generally hold homosexuality is fine, but the clergy usually says sex not done for reproduction is sinful. So basically, it's cool to be gay if you don't have sex. A number of monastaries even encourage relationships among monks

In the Islamic context it becomes all the more muddled when one includes the schools of jurisprudence, local traditions, and generally dispensation of Hudud crimes in modern times.

Which is why they shouldn't be included.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Actually, if you don't mind me stepping in, we generally hold homosexuality is fine, but the clergy usually says sex not done for reproduction is sinful. So basically, it's cool to be gay if you don't have sex. A number of monastaries even encourage relationships among monks

You're Buddhist?

Well, Tengri-Buddhist, but yeah

[White Chrobatia]

From what research I've done into it, Therevada (at least, maybe it applies to other denominations as well) Buddhism is completely silent on homosexuality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_ ... a_Buddhism

Problem with this is

a) Wikipedia
b) The implication that Buddhism is universal across nations.

The biggest issue with Buddhism in this regard is how the Buddha is actually silent on the issue of homosexuality. He only mentions "I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from sexual misconduct" in the Five Precepts. However, the Buddha never explicitly mentions exactly what sexual misconduct is. For most modern Therevada Buddhists, "sexual misconduct" generally means rape, incest, adultery, child molestation, etc. This is further evidenced by the most important tenet in Buddhism of all: "Do no harm to yourself or others". Homosexuality does not harm anyone in the way that rape or adultery does.

So this can be interpreted as the most official stream of Buddhist thought on homosexuality in the modern world. The issue is is that this is not, of course, recorded anywhere, and more often than not the treatment of homosexuals is based off of cultural, not religious, tenets due to the fact that the treatment of homosexuals must be interpreted from the writings rather than explicitly stated within them.

[Jochizyd Republic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_ ... a_Buddhism

Problem with this is

a) Wikipedia
b) The implication that Buddhism is universal across nations.

The biggest issue with Buddhism in this regard is how the Buddha is actually silent on the issue of homosexuality. He only mentions "I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from sexual misconduct" in the Five Precepts. However, the Buddha never explicitly mentions exactly what sexual misconduct is. For most modern Therevada Buddhists, "sexual misconduct" generally means rape, incest, adultery, child molestation, etc. This is further evidenced by the most important tenet in Buddhism of all: "Do no harm to yourself or others". Homosexuality does not harm anyone in the way that rape or adultery does.

So this can be interpreted as the most official stream of Buddhist thought on homosexuality in the modern world. The issue is is that this is not, of course, recorded anywhere, and more often than not the treatment of homosexuals is based off of cultural, not religious, tenets due to the fact that the treatment of homosexuals must be interpreted from the writings rather than explicitly stated within them.

I'm just saying. It's disputed.

[White Chrobatia]

Problem with this is

a) Wikipedia
b) The implication that Buddhism is universal across nations.

The biggest issue with Buddhism in this regard is how the Buddha is actually silent on the issue of homosexuality. He only mentions "I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from sexual misconduct" in the Five Precepts. However, the Buddha never explicitly mentions exactly what sexual misconduct is. For most modern Therevada Buddhists, "sexual misconduct" generally means rape, incest, adultery, child molestation, etc. This is further evidenced by the most important tenet in Buddhism of all: "Do no harm to yourself or others". Homosexuality does not harm anyone in the way that rape or adultery does.

So this can be interpreted as the most official stream of Buddhist thought on homosexuality in the modern world. The issue is is that this is not, of course, recorded anywhere, and more often than not the treatment of homosexuals is based off of cultural, not religious, tenets due to the fact that the treatment of homosexuals must be interpreted from the writings rather than explicitly stated within them.

I'm just saying. It's disputed.

Your earlier claim was that in no religion is it okay, and I'm showing you that in at least one it can be interpreted as such. IB further showed this, with monks being encouraged to have relationships with one another so long as no actual sex occurs.

(By the way, thanks for chiming in IB )

[Internationalist Bastard]

I'm just saying. It's disputed.

Your earlier claim was that in no religion is it okay, and I'm showing you that in at least one it can be interpreted as such. IB further showed this, with monks being encouraged to have relationships with one another so long as no actual sex occurs.

(By the way, thanks for chiming in IB )

Not a problem I like stalking this thread due to my intrest in Islam