[US Election 2016] Democratic Primary Megathread III

[Ashmoria]

you sure do like to read things that aren't there. she said "But mass incarceration's impact on women and their families has been particularly acute — and it doesn't get the attention it deserves"

ohmygod how can anyone be considering voting for her??

Compared with Trump, she is millions of miles ahead. I will be voting for Hillary it appears, but let's not pretend she didn't just say something tasteless and complain about the treatment of the privileged class.

she didn't

she highlighted a prison demographic that is not often talked about.

in a minor editorial in cnn.com

...which I still don't understand. does that mean they've talked about in on cnn tv?

[Galloism]

Once again, this is complaining that the privileged class has some problems and not even giving a nod to the actual oppressed class.

It's offensive and tone deaf.

They're in prison, there is no fucking privileged class.

Yes, yes there is.

Men receive sentences 63% longer for the same crime, and women are twice as likely to avoid incarceration for the same crime if convicted.

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/f ... ities.aspx

[Ashmoria]

there can be more than one "acute"

Once again, this is complaining that the privileged class has some problems and not even giving a nod to the actual oppressed class.

It's offensive and tone deaf.

only if you are looking to be offended.

[Galloism]

Compared with Trump, she is millions of miles ahead. I will be voting for Hillary it appears, but let's not pretend she didn't just say something tasteless and complain about the treatment of the privileged class.

she didn't

Then you didn't read it.

[Corrian]

You know, this may seem backwards from the stereotype, but I'm pretty sure my parents are more #BernieOrBust than I am. Not to say they are, because as I said before, I think of Bernie or Bust as more along the lines of Bernie or Nobody, and they will most likely vote independent (My dad is leaning Jill Stein), but they seem more anti Clinton than I am (Probably because they had to deal with her in 2008 and didn't like her then, and my mom said she didn't like her all the way back to her being First Lady)

[MERIZoC]

They're in prison, there is no fucking privileged class.

Yes, yes there is.

Men receive sentences 63% longer for the same crime, and women are twice as likely to avoid incarceration for the same crime if convicted.

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/f ... ities.aspx

If you think that's what privilege is you're delusional.

[Galloism]

Yes, yes there is.

Men receive sentences 63% longer for the same crime, and women are twice as likely to avoid incarceration for the same crime if convicted.

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/f ... ities.aspx

If you think that's what privilege is you're delusional.

Then I guess it isn't white privilege that the ratio for white people is about 30% and 50% less likely to avoid incarceration.

It's just the way things are, and we don't need to worry about minor things like racism in the justice system.

[Kelinfort]

You know, this may seem backwards from the stereotype, but I'm pretty sure my parents are more #BernieOrBust than I am. Not to say they are, because as I said before, I think of Bernie or Bust as more along the lines of Bernie or Nobody, and they will most likely vote independent (My dad is leaning Jill Stein), but they seem more anti Clinton than I am (Probably because they had to deal with her in 2008 and didn't like her then, and my mom said she didn't like her all the way back to her being First Lady)

Conversely, my mom and dad are strongly against voting for Sanders. Especially my mom.

[Maurepas]

I follow a lot of news and I've yet to see this editorial on my feed, but reading the article, she doesn't only talk about women in it, that's just the specific story she's writing about. When she says what needs to be done the first things she points out are thusly:

We can't go on like this. It is time we reform our broken criminal justice system. First, we need to reform policing practices, end racial profiling, and eradicate racial disparities in sentencing. Second, we need to promote alternatives to incarceration, particularly for nonviolent and first-time offenders, so families aren't broken up. We need to improve access to high-quality treatment for substance abuse, inside and outside the prison system, because drug and alcohol addiction is a disease, not a crime — and we need to treat it as such.

I can't figure out the part where I'm supposed to disagree with that. Nor that she's leaving out the racial issue talked about in this thread.

[AiliailiA]

Yes, yes there is.

Men receive sentences 63% longer for the same crime, and women are twice as likely to avoid incarceration for the same crime if convicted.

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/f ... ities.aspx

If you think that's what privilege is you're delusional.

Looks like privilege in sentencing to me. What would you call it?

[MERIZoC]

If you think that's what privilege is you're delusional.

Then I guess it isn't white privilege that the ratio for white people is about 30% and 50% less likely to avoid incarceration.

It's just the way things are, and we don't need to worry about minor things like racism in the justice system.

And are incarcerated whites privileged individuals? No. They aren't. They're most likely a poor soul locked up for bad reasons. The ones with privilege are you and me (both males, mind you) who sit outside prison and lead relatively stable lives.

[Ashmoria]

she didn't

Then you didn't read it.

pfffft

I did. it was fine.

[Galloism]

Then you didn't read it.

pfffft

I did. it was fine.

Might be hard to see from a position of privilege, I guess.

[AiliailiA]

Then I guess it isn't white privilege that the ratio for white people is about 30% and 50% less likely to avoid incarceration.

It's just the way things are, and we don't need to worry about minor things like racism in the justice system.

And are incarcerated whites privileged individuals? No. They aren't. They're most likely a poor soul locked up for bad reasons. The ones with privilege are you and me (both males, mind you) who sit outside prison and lead relatively stable lives.

Yes?

Yes, yes there is.

Men receive sentences 63% longer for the same crime, and women are twice as likely to avoid incarceration for the same crime if convicted.

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/f ... ities.aspx

Men or women "sit outside prison" after serving their sentence (shorter sentence, more time outside) and men or women "sit outside prison" if they avoid a sentence of imprisonment.

[Ashmoria]

pfffft

I did. it was fine.

Might be hard to see from a position of privilege, I guess.

I guess so

I guess we must NEVER talk about problem 1 if problem 2 is worse. problem 1 can go fuck itself no matter how bad it is.

its like ...dawkins saying that western women have nothing to complain about because Saudi women have it worse.

[Galloism]

Might be hard to see from a position of privilege, I guess.

I guess so

I guess we must NEVER talk about problem 1 if problem 2 is worse. problem 1 can go fuck itself no matter how bad it is.

its like ...dawkins saying that western women have nothing to complain about because Saudi women have it worse.

Which is why we see a lot of articles talking about how bad white people have it with violence in their neighborhoods, and how badly white people are treated in the prison system, and how badly men are treated when it comes to autonomy over their bodies.

Oh wait, we never fucking see that.

[MERIZoC]

I guess so

I guess we must NEVER talk about problem 1 if problem 2 is worse. problem 1 can go fuck itself no matter how bad it is.

its like ...dawkins saying that western women have nothing to complain about because Saudi women have it worse.

Which is why we see a lot of articles talking about how bad white people have it with violence in their neighborhoods, and how badly white people are treated in the prison system, and how badly men are treated when it comes to autonomy over their bodies.

Oh wait, we never fucking see that.

I've seen numerous discussions over things like circumcision. Haven't you?

[The United Territories of Providence]

Well, No.

Women are the fastest growing prison demographic, not latinos, or blacks, or men. Women. Furthermore, she didn't say white women. She said
women, and the majority of women behind bars are latino or black. So not only is this a gender issue, it's a racial issue.

More women are in federal prison for non-violent crimes than men are. Less than 7% of women in federal prison have committed a violent crime.

Where'd you get that figure? Sure you didn't get it mixed up with the 6.7% of Federal prisoners who are female?

Women in prison are much more likely than men to contract a disease. The rates of chronic and communicable illnesses among women, Including HIV are staggering. Not to mention, that nearly half of all girls, not women, I'm talking about juveniles now...they report vaginal injuries consistent with sexual assault.

Women don't have the best access to healthcare either. There are cases where women die during childbirth because they weren't attended to, there are instances of women dying from toxic shock because they reuse and ration tampons, not to mention rising rates of breast and ovarian cancers.

These are things that Clinton SHOULD have said. Instead, she concentrated on keeping women out of prison for the benefit of their children ... an argument which would apply even if their offense was a violent one (other than violence directed against children of course) and SHOULD apply equally to men who have custody of children.

Instead, there's the vaguely defined "primary caregiver" assertion. Pardon me for being suspicious, but that figure can be padded with pretty much any family having a male and female parent involved: the more relevant figure would be single parents, because children being left in the care of a father (because the mother is in prison) isn't as bad as children having to be fostered out (because their sole parent, father OR mother, is in prison).

And here's a point where leaving men out of the discription of the problem actually mis-states the problem. Particularly among African-Americans, male imprisonment is a major cause of women being the sole parent in the first place.

It's about 70% of women in prison who have ever had a child (whether they have custody or not) and about 3% who actually give birth while imprisoned. That's not even to say that 70% would have custody or be "primary caregiver" if they weren't imprisoned.

A woman convicted and sentenced to prison is often allowed a stay of sentence if she is pregnant at the time ... which I have no problem with, if she's not an imminent danger to others ... while women in prison understandably avoid getting pregnant. There's reasonable allowance already, and I have no problem with that. I'd even concede that during pregnancy the welfare of the mother is extremely important for the child resulting and CANNOT be substituted by efforts of a father.

My problem is to discuss all female convicts as though they're all non-violent (or by choice of examples, actually innocent). And it's to discuss all female convicts and as though the welfare of children is always an issue in whether they should be imprisoned, whether they should get rehabilitation and housing support and so on. At least 30% of them never had children, didn't have custody of children, or won't have custody of children after release.

If we account for all women under some sort of custody, there are 1.2 Million women. That's not close to the number of men under the same custody, but there is an issue.

To say that women aren't acutely affected, or that they are least in need of assistance...well it's just not true. Women, who are overwhelmingly women of color...are acutely affected by our prison system.

What do you mean by "overwhelmingly women of color"? Is "overwhelmingly" like two-thirds and are "women of color" blacks AND hispanics? If so, you're describing prisoners not just female prisoners.

1. The Department of Justice. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/wo.pdf

2. That's a legitimate argument, and I won't say that Hillary couldn't have been more artful.

3. Actually, the number is closer to 51% of female prisoners are anything other than non-Hispanic white. But the bigger issue is that the imprisonment rate for black females (113 per 100,000) is twice the rate of white females (51 per 100,000). I'm just making the point that this isn't solely a gender issue, I get that there are racial disparities with men and women...but there is nuance. It's a gender issue, it's a family issue, it's a race issue, it's a health issue...

[Galloism]

Which is why we see a lot of articles talking about how bad white people have it with violence in their neighborhoods, and how badly white people are treated in the prison system, and how badly men are treated when it comes to autonomy over their bodies.

Oh wait, we never fucking see that.

I've seen numerous discussions over things like circumcision. Haven't you?

On nationstates, yes.

Publicly by... anyone politically important in the US?

No.

[MERIZoC]

I've seen numerous discussions over things like circumcision. Haven't you?

On nationstates, yes.

Publicly by... anyone politically important in the US?

No.

But you'd agree that it's a good discussion to have, I'd assume. Then why not this one about women in the prison system?

[Ashmoria]

I guess so

I guess we must NEVER talk about problem 1 if problem 2 is worse. problem 1 can go fuck itself no matter how bad it is.

its like ...dawkins saying that western women have nothing to complain about because Saudi women have it worse.

Which is why we see a lot of articles talking about how bad white people have it with violence in their neighborhoods, and how badly white people are treated in the prison system, and how badly men are treated when it comes to autonomy over their bodies.

Oh wait, we never fucking see that.

which is why we cant talk about the problems of women in prison.

because.....oh yeah there IS no good reason why we cant talk about the problems of women in prison.

[Corrian]

I'm still trying to decide what to do with my Birdie Sanders sticker almost 2 weeks after I got it. I want to put it somewhere but at the same time I don't want to use it

[Galloism]

Which is why we see a lot of articles talking about how bad white people have it with violence in their neighborhoods, and how badly white people are treated in the prison system, and how badly men are treated when it comes to autonomy over their bodies.

Oh wait, we never fucking see that.

which is why we cant talk about the problems of women in prison.

because.....oh yeah there IS no good reason why we cant talk about the problems of women in prison.

It would have been fine if she had talked about actual problems of women in prison unique to women (of which there are some). But by saying "women have this problem" that men have about 30x worse and women are relatively privileged by their gender, without even acknowledging the actual scope, it's tone deaf and offensive.

[The United Territories of Providence]

I'm still trying to decide what to do with my Birdie Sanders sticker almost 2 weeks after I got it. I want to put it somewhere but at the same time I don't want to use it

Laminate it! Then buy a scrap book so you can but it in there, then start collecting other political memorabilia. Stickers and buttons and crap from Democrats and Republicans. Then by 2024 or 2028, you'll have an impressive collection.

[Corrian]

I'm still trying to decide what to do with my Birdie Sanders sticker almost 2 weeks after I got it. I want to put it somewhere but at the same time I don't want to use it

Laminate it! Then buy a scrap book so you can but it in there, then start collecting other political memorabilia. Stickers and buttons and crap from Democrats and Republicans. Then by 2024 or 2028, you'll have an impressive collection.

They let you take more than one. I should have grabbed a couple.