[US Election 2016] Democratic Primary Megathread III

[Kelinfort]

Obama talked about race a lot less than Hillary has been talking about gender. And trust me, I don't get my talking points from Trump. I've been complaining about Clinton's sexist crap since several months ago when Trump was still going after Megyn Kelly rather than Clinton.

Yes, Trump is a sexist douche. I don't think anyone with a working brain would deny that he's a sexist douche. That doesn't make it OK for Clinton to prioritize women above men on issues that affect men in large numbers. It doesn't make it OK for her to single out female Sanders supporters on the basis of our gender and insult our intelligence.

Talking about actual women's issues like abortion, pay equality, etc. is fine. Taking things that are not specifically women's issues and trying to shoehorn gender into the discussion where it doesn't belong is going to rub people the wrong way. I get frustrated with Ostro same as other people on NS do, but in this case, he has a point.

Thing is, Obama should have talked about race more. He had the opportunity to bring a direct conversation about race to the table and didn't. I don't fault Clinton for trying to do that with gender, though I don't think she's done the best job of it.

Obama is Reagan, Clinton is HW Bush.

[Geilinor]

Obama talked about race a lot less than Hillary has been talking about gender. And trust me, I don't get my talking points from Trump. I've been complaining about Clinton's sexist crap since several months ago when Trump was still going after Megyn Kelly rather than Clinton.

Yes, Trump is a sexist douche. I don't think anyone with a working brain would deny that he's a sexist douche. That doesn't make it OK for Clinton to prioritize women above men on issues that affect men in large numbers. It doesn't make it OK for her to single out female Sanders supporters on the basis of our gender and insult our intelligence.

Talking about actual women's issues like abortion, pay equality, etc. is fine. Taking things that are not specifically women's issues and trying to shoehorn gender into the discussion where it doesn't belong is going to rub people the wrong way. I get frustrated with Ostro same as other people on NS do, but in this case, he has a point.

Thing is, Obama should have talked about race more. He had the opportunity to bring a direct conversation about race to the table and didn't. I don't fault Clinton for trying to do that with gender, though I don't think she's done the best job of it.

Eh. Obama talked about it when he had to and the speech worked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_More_Perfect_Union_(speech)

[MERIZoC]

Thing is, Obama should have talked about race more. He had the opportunity to bring a direct conversation about race to the table and didn't. I don't fault Clinton for trying to do that with gender, though I don't think she's done the best job of it.

Obama is Reagan, Clinton is HW Bush.

...you'll have to elaborate.

[MERIZoC]

Thing is, Obama should have talked about race more. He had the opportunity to bring a direct conversation about race to the table and didn't. I don't fault Clinton for trying to do that with gender, though I don't think she's done the best job of it.

Eh. Obama talked about it when he had to and the speech worked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_More_Perfect_Union_(speech)

"When he had to" being the key words.

[The United Territories of Providence]

Obama is Reagan, Clinton is HW Bush.

...you'll have to elaborate.

Obama built the legacy, Clinton wants to extend it. In the same way that George H.W Bush, who wasn't particularly inspiring, was able to use Reagan to win the presidency. They may have had a few personal ideological differences, but Bush was a loyal member of the administration who was emblematic of the Reagan legacy, and people loved Ronald Reagan. Hillary Clinton is not Barack Obama, but she was a loyal Secretary of State and has committed herself to improving upon the legacy of a President who is beloved by the base and who at the moment at least...is pretty popular with Americans. She's not that inspiring on her own, but it's not about her, like it wasn't really about Bush...it's about their predecessors.

Plus, Bush and Reagan had the ugliest primary battle until...Obama and Clinton. Then they made nice, and one decided to be the torch bearer for the other.

[MERIZoC]

...you'll have to elaborate.

Obama built the legacy, Clinton wants to extend it. In the same way that George H.W Bush, who wasn't particularly inspiring, was able to use Reagan to win the presidency. They may have had a few personal ideological differences, but Bush was a loyal member of the administration who was emblematic of the Reagan legacy, and people loved Ronald Reagan. Hillary Clinton is not Barack Obama, but she was a loyal Secretary of State and has committed herself to improving upon the legacy of a President who is beloved by the base and who at the moment at least...is pretty popular with Americans. She's not that inspiring on her own, but it's not about her, like it wasn't really about Bush...it's about their predecessors.

Plus, Bush and Reagan had the ugliest primary battle until...Obama and Clinton. Then they made nice, and one decided to be the torch bearer for the other.

Not quite sure how that relates to my post.

[Kelinfort]

Obama is Reagan, Clinton is HW Bush.

...you'll have to elaborate.

Obama is charismatic and can rally the base, even after making pragmatic moves, like Reagan.
Clinton is a lot less charismatic and a lot more a policy wonk, like HW.

Both ran against each other in the primaries.

HW and Clinton are trying to succeed their counterpart after the President won two terms in office.

[Kelinfort]

Obama built the legacy, Clinton wants to extend it. In the same way that George H.W Bush, who wasn't particularly inspiring, was able to use Reagan to win the presidency. They may have had a few personal ideological differences, but Bush was a loyal member of the administration who was emblematic of the Reagan legacy, and people loved Ronald Reagan. Hillary Clinton is not Barack Obama, but she was a loyal Secretary of State and has committed herself to improving upon the legacy of a President who is beloved by the base and who at the moment at least...is pretty popular with Americans. She's not that inspiring on her own, but it's not about her, like it wasn't really about Bush...it's about their predecessors.

Plus, Bush and Reagan had the ugliest primary battle until...Obama and Clinton. Then they made nice, and one decided to be the torch bearer for the other.

Not quite sure how that relates to my post.

That's exactly what I meant.

[The United Territories of Providence]

Obama built the legacy, Clinton wants to extend it. In the same way that George H.W Bush, who wasn't particularly inspiring, was able to use Reagan to win the presidency. They may have had a few personal ideological differences, but Bush was a loyal member of the administration who was emblematic of the Reagan legacy, and people loved Ronald Reagan. Hillary Clinton is not Barack Obama, but she was a loyal Secretary of State and has committed herself to improving upon the legacy of a President who is beloved by the base and who at the moment at least...is pretty popular with Americans. She's not that inspiring on her own, but it's not about her, like it wasn't really about Bush...it's about their predecessors.

Plus, Bush and Reagan had the ugliest primary battle until...Obama and Clinton. Then they made nice, and one decided to be the torch bearer for the other.

Not quite sure how that relates to my post.

You said elaborate. Which I took to mean you didn't understand why the comparison was being made?

[MERIZoC]

Not quite sure how that relates to my post.

That's exactly what I meant.

No, I mean the one on race and gender.

[Kelinfort]

That's exactly what I meant.

No, I mean the one on race and gender.

It's only tangentially. Clinton, you said, was very poor at talking about gender. She shares that quality with HW Bush. Whereas Obama can rally people around race.

[Galloism]

To say that women aren't acutely affected, or that they are least in need of assistance...well it's just not true. Women, who are overwhelmingly women of color...are acutely affected by our prison system. Hillary Clinton is right on the money.

Except men of color are the ones acutely affected by our prison system.

Black men receive the harshest sentences for the same crimes, followed by latino men, followed by white men, followed by black women, followed by latino women, followed by white women.

No, the ones "acutely affected" by our prison system are men, particularly black men.

[MERIZoC]

No, I mean the one on race and gender.

It's only tangentially. Clinton, you said, was very poor at talking about gender. She shares that quality with HW Bush. Whereas Obama can rally people around race.

But I never claimed Obama can. I said he did quite the opposite, by not focusing enough on race.

[The United Territories of Providence]

To say that women aren't acutely affected, or that they are least in need of assistance...well it's just not true. Women, who are overwhelmingly women of color...are acutely affected by our prison system. Hillary Clinton is right on the money.

Except men of color are the ones acutely affected by our prison system.

Black men receive the harshest sentences for the same crimes, followed by latino men, followed by white men, followed by black women, followed by latino women, followed by white women.

No, the ones "acutely affected" by our prison system are men, particularly black men.

What about literally everything else that I said?

[MERIZoC]

To say that women aren't acutely affected, or that they are least in need of assistance...well it's just not true. Women, who are overwhelmingly women of color...are acutely affected by our prison system. Hillary Clinton is right on the money.

Except men of color are the ones acutely affected by our prison system.

Black men receive the harshest sentences for the same crimes, followed by latino men, followed by white men, followed by black women, followed by latino women, followed by white women.

No, the ones "acutely affected" by our prison system are men, particularly black men.

Sentencing isn't everything. But regardless of that, would you be screaming racism if a Latino candidate decided to talk about problems Latinos face in prison simply for the reason that blacks face harsher sentences?

e:
Also note that I am rather resentful of you for putting me in a spot where I'm defending Clinton. >_>

[Kelinfort]

It's only tangentially. Clinton, you said, was very poor at talking about gender. She shares that quality with HW Bush. Whereas Obama can rally people around race.

But I never claimed Obama can. I said he did quite the opposite, by not focusing enough on race.

But when he did, he got the base fired up.

He's avoided it during campaigns because the American public is still very averse to talking about race.

[Galloism]

Except men of color are the ones acutely affected by our prison system.

Black men receive the harshest sentences for the same crimes, followed by latino men, followed by white men, followed by black women, followed by latino women, followed by white women.

No, the ones "acutely affected" by our prison system are men, particularly black men.

What about literally everything else that I said?

The only reason women are the fastest growing demographic is because the sexism is finally weakening. Complaining about sexism weakening would make her position even worse.

[Galloism]

Except men of color are the ones acutely affected by our prison system.

Black men receive the harshest sentences for the same crimes, followed by latino men, followed by white men, followed by black women, followed by latino women, followed by white women.

No, the ones "acutely affected" by our prison system are men, particularly black men.

Sentencing isn't everything. But regardless of that, would you be screaming racism if a Latino candidate decided to talk about problems Latinos face in prison simply for the reason that blacks face harsher sentences?

e:
Also note that I am rather resentful of you for putting me in a spot where I'm defending Clinton. >_>

Uh, not really, because in comparison to the majority demographic (white people) they do receive harsher sentences on average.

That's not completely out of the park.

However, if John Kasich or Bernie Sanders started talking about how white people were acutely affected by the prison system and we need to take a racial approach to ease the burden on white people, you can bet I would call out that bullshit.

[Ashmoria]

So what exactly is the issue? Yes, we have a prison system that has destroyed many families and has harshly punished otherwise non-violent criminals for low level offenses. Yes, there seems to be systematic discrimination in that system that hurts latinos and blacks. Yes, we have a large share of the worlds prison population. Yes, we have 30% of the female prison population of the world and quite a few men as well.

So what is the issue? Fuck Hillary for saying that we should reform our prison system right. Ted Cruz and Donald Trump aren't taking the liberal position that perhaps...we should have fewer people in jail. Maybe you don't agree that she singled out women on this particular issue, even though our prison system is unfair to all swaths of Americans. However, is it not better that she can recognize that our prison system is flawed and acutely unfair for women...then her going the route of the opposition who refuse to acknowledge the problem? I would argue, that simply because female prisoners matter...does not mean that male prisoners do not matter. All prisoners matter, but can women's issues not be discussed without immediately benefiting men? Can she talk about women and their problems? Because it's not ignoring men's problems, I'm sure she knows they exist because she has talked about them on the campaign trial....

Mostly it's because she picked the group with the absolute highest level of privilege regarding the criminal justice system, then said they were more acutely affected by the problems in the Justice system.

It would be like bemoaning the violence in white neighborhoods or poverty among white people. It may be true that violence in white neighborhoods is bad, but you're focusing your help on the people least in need of it.

you sure do like to read things that aren't there. she said "But mass incarceration's impact on women and their families has been particularly acute — and it doesn't get the attention it deserves"

ohmygod how can anyone be considering voting for her??

[Galloism]

Mostly it's because she picked the group with the absolute highest level of privilege regarding the criminal justice system, then said they were more acutely affected by the problems in the Justice system.

It would be like bemoaning the violence in white neighborhoods or poverty among white people. It may be true that violence in white neighborhoods is bad, but you're focusing your help on the people least in need of it.

you sure do like to read things that aren't there. she said "But mass incarceration's impact on women and their families has been particularly acute — and it doesn't get the attention it deserves"

ohmygod how can anyone be considering voting for her??

Compared with Trump, she is millions of miles ahead. I will be voting for Hillary it appears, but let's not pretend she didn't just say something tasteless and complain about the treatment of the privileged class.

[MERIZoC]

Sentencing isn't everything. But regardless of that, would you be screaming racism if a Latino candidate decided to talk about problems Latinos face in prison simply for the reason that blacks face harsher sentences?

e:
Also note that I am rather resentful of you for putting me in a spot where I'm defending Clinton. >_>

Uh, not really, because in comparison to the majority demographic (white people) they do receive harsher sentences on average.

That's not completely out of the park.

However, if John Kasich or Bernie Sanders started talking about how white people were acutely affected by the prison system and we need to take a racial approach to ease the burden on white people, you can bet I would call out that bullshit.

The difference being that there are actually unique problems faced by incarcerated women that need to be tackled with unique solutions.

[AiliailiA]

Mostly it's because she picked the group with the absolute highest level of privilege regarding the criminal justice system, then said they were more acutely affected by the problems in the Justice system.

It would be like bemoaning the violence in white neighborhoods or poverty among white people. It may be true that violence in white neighborhoods is bad, but you're focusing your help on the people least in need of it.

Well, No.

Women are the fastest growing prison demographic, not latinos, or blacks, or men. Women. Furthermore, she didn't say white women. She said
women, and the majority of women behind bars are latino or black. So not only is this a gender issue, it's a racial issue.

More women are in federal prison for non-violent crimes than men are. Less than 7% of women in federal prison have committed a violent crime.

Where'd you get that figure? Sure you didn't get it mixed up with the 6.7% of Federal prisoners who are female?

Women in prison are much more likely than men to contract a disease. The rates of chronic and communicable illnesses among women, Including HIV are staggering. Not to mention, that nearly half of all girls, not women, I'm talking about juveniles now...they report vaginal injuries consistent with sexual assault.

Women don't have the best access to healthcare either. There are cases where women die during childbirth because they weren't attended to, there are instances of women dying from toxic shock because they reuse and ration tampons, not to mention rising rates of breast and ovarian cancers.

These are things that Clinton SHOULD have said. Instead, she concentrated on keeping women out of prison for the benefit of their children ... an argument which would apply even if their offense was a violent one (other than violence directed against children of course) and SHOULD apply equally to men who have custody of children.

Instead, there's the vaguely defined "primary caregiver" assertion. Pardon me for being suspicious, but that figure can be padded with pretty much any family having a male and female parent involved: the more relevant figure would be single parents, because children being left in the care of a father (because the mother is in prison) isn't as bad as children having to be fostered out (because their sole parent, father OR mother, is in prison).

And here's a point where leaving men out of the discription of the problem actually mis-states the problem. Particularly among African-Americans, male imprisonment is a major cause of women being the sole parent in the first place.

It's about 70% of women in prison who have ever had a child (whether they have custody or not) and about 3% who actually give birth while imprisoned. That's not even to say that 70% would have custody or be "primary caregiver" if they weren't imprisoned.

A woman convicted and sentenced to prison is often allowed a stay of sentence if she is pregnant at the time ... which I have no problem with, if she's not an imminent danger to others ... while women in prison understandably avoid getting pregnant. There's reasonable allowance already, and I have no problem with that. I'd even concede that during pregnancy the welfare of the mother is extremely important for the child resulting and CANNOT be substituted by efforts of a father.

My problem is to discuss all female convicts as though they're all non-violent (or by choice of examples, actually innocent). And it's to discuss all female convicts and as though the welfare of children is always an issue in whether they should be imprisoned, whether they should get rehabilitation and housing support and so on. At least 30% of them never had children, didn't have custody of children, or won't have custody of children after release.

If we account for all women under some sort of custody, there are 1.2 Million women. That's not close to the number of men under the same custody, but there is an issue.

To say that women aren't acutely affected, or that they are least in need of assistance...well it's just not true. Women, who are overwhelmingly women of color...are acutely affected by our prison system.

What do you mean by "overwhelmingly women of color"? Is "overwhelmingly" like two-thirds and are "women of color" blacks AND hispanics? If so, you're describing prisoners not just female prisoners.

[Ashmoria]

To say that women aren't acutely affected, or that they are least in need of assistance...well it's just not true. Women, who are overwhelmingly women of color...are acutely affected by our prison system. Hillary Clinton is right on the money.

Except men of color are the ones acutely affected by our prison system.

Black men receive the harshest sentences for the same crimes, followed by latino men, followed by white men, followed by black women, followed by latino women, followed by white women.

No, the ones "acutely affected" by our prison system are men, particularly black men.

there can be more than one "acute"

[Galloism]

Except men of color are the ones acutely affected by our prison system.

Black men receive the harshest sentences for the same crimes, followed by latino men, followed by white men, followed by black women, followed by latino women, followed by white women.

No, the ones "acutely affected" by our prison system are men, particularly black men.

there can be more than one "acute"

Once again, this is complaining that the privileged class has some problems and not even giving a nod to the actual oppressed class.

It's offensive and tone deaf.

[MERIZoC]

there can be more than one "acute"

Once again, this is complaining that the privileged class has some problems and not even giving a nod to the actual oppressed class.

It's offensive and tone deaf.

They're in prison, there is no fucking privileged class.