Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Stellonia]

Job 26:7 states, "He... hangs the earth on nothing", while Isaiah 40:22 states, "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth," (note that the Hebrew word for circle also means sphere).

1) This doesn't really go against previous assumptions of how the universe works and may actually be taken as incorrect given that Earth is "hanging" in orbit around our local star by way of gravity.
2) After checking, I'm surprised that it indeed does. Given that the Church went on to roll with the "circular" (circles: generally flat) translation and actively persecuted people who thought an alternate model might be more accurate, I must remain skeptical towards the utility of scripture as basis for science when there's translation going wrong in that many places.

You seem to be interpreting the Old Testament as if it were written in English, or as if the translations were perfect.

[Godular]

1) This doesn't really go against previous assumptions of how the universe works and may actually be taken as incorrect given that Earth is "hanging" in orbit around our local star by way of gravity.
2) After checking, I'm surprised that it indeed does. Given that the Church went on to roll with the "circular" (circles: generally flat) translation and actively persecuted people who thought an alternate model might be more accurate, I must remain skeptical towards the utility of scripture as basis for science when there's translation going wrong in that many places.

You seem to be interpreting the Old Testament as if it were written in English, or as if the translations were perfect.

Or as if it were at all relevant to anything in this thread ever!

[Stellonia]

Ahem... Where were we before discussing whether religion should play a role in medicinal science?

[Godular]

Ahem... Where were we before discussing whether religion should play a role in medicinal science?

Which ain't got shit on the rationale behind being either pro-choice or pro-life! You wanna yak it up about whether the bible is medically sound you can do it in the christian discussion thread.

[San Lumen]

I'm pro choice. Who are you tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body? Are any pro lifers going to adopt the unwanted children? Would you force a woman who was raped in the victim of incest to carry the child to term?

[54e]

Curious lurker here, and sorry if this has been brought up before (I'm not going to read through 954 posts), but it seems like the question as framed in this thread is strictly black and white, which it most certainly is not.

My question is: To what extent does the pro-choice argument go? To clarify, do you support the right to have an abortion up until birth? If not, where do you draw the line?

I have no stake in this debate; I'm just curious.

[San Lumen]

Curious lurker here, and sorry if this has been brought up before (I'm not going to read through 954 posts), but it seems like the question as framed in this thread is strictly black and white, which it most certainly is not.

My question is: To what extent does the pro-choice argument go? To clarify, do you support the right to have an abortion up until birth? If not, where do you draw the line?

I support first and second trimester abortions but not late term unless its a toxic pregnancy.

[Arach-Naga Combine]

Curious lurker here, and sorry if this has been brought up before (I'm not going to read through 954 posts), but it seems like the question as framed in this thread is strictly black and white, which it most certainly is not.

My question is: To what extent does the pro-choice argument go? To clarify, do you support the right to have an abortion up until birth? If not, where do you draw the line?

Is your bodily soveriegnty being invaded? Then you have a right to remove that invasion. No limitations, no caveats.

[54e]

Curious lurker here, and sorry if this has been brought up before (I'm not going to read through 954 posts), but it seems like the question as framed in this thread is strictly black and white, which it most certainly is not.

My question is: To what extent does the pro-choice argument go? To clarify, do you support the right to have an abortion up until birth? If not, where do you draw the line?

Is your bodily soveriegnty being invaded? Then you have a right to remove that invasion. No limitations, no caveats.

Invasion, after 7+ months of pregnancy? Even past viability, where it is ostensibly as easy to terminate as it is to give birth? At some point, doesn't it just become a matter of geography of the spawn (fetus, baby, whatever) and not bodily sovereignty?

(Playing devil's advocate, don't kill me)

[138]

I will put this out there: most people who are pro-life are quick to send young men and women to go fight in a war. The same people who are pro-choice complain when an airstrike kills civilians. I myself am in the middle of the road on this issue. I don't like what Planned Parenthood is doing with these aborted fetuses/ babies because it's just sick and probably illegal anyway. I also think it's sick when people abort a fetus/ baby because of race or gender. When it comes down to it, I think it should be the mother's choice, but it should not be based on race. gender, or just because you changed your mind.

[54e]

I will put this out there: most people who are pro-life are quick to send young men and women to go fight in a war. The same people who are pro-choice complain when an airstrike kills civilians. I myself am in the middle of the road on this issue. I don't like what Planned Parenthood is doing with these aborted fetuses/ babies because it's just sick and probably illegal anyway. I also think it's sick when people abort a fetus/ baby because of race or gender. When it comes down to it, I think it should be the mother's choice, but it should not be based on race. gender, or just because you changed your mind.

There sure is a lot of irrelevant information in this post that has nothing to do with the arguments.

As for Planned Parenthood, I'm not familiar with the specifics/legal stuff, but wouldn't an aborted fetus do more good in the hands of scientists rather than in a trash can?

[Redsection]

So what do you pro-choice people think now,since planned parent hood is at risk of losing funding?

[138]

I will put this out there: most people who are pro-life are quick to send young men and women to go fight in a war. The same people who are pro-choice complain when an airstrike kills civilians. I myself am in the middle of the road on this issue. I don't like what Planned Parenthood is doing with these aborted fetuses/ babies because it's just sick and probably illegal anyway. I also think it's sick when people abort a fetus/ baby because of race or gender. When it comes down to it, I think it should be the mother's choice, but it should not be based on race. gender, or just because you changed your mind.

There sure is a lot of irrelevant information in this post that has nothing to do with the arguments.

As for Planned Parenthood, I'm not familiar with the specifics/legal stuff, but wouldn't an aborted fetus do more good in the hands of scientists rather than in a trash can?

A scientist would definitely do better with a fetus than a trash can. Usually aborted fetuses are used for stem cell research to help find a for cure cancer if I'm not mistaken. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.

I was just venting in the first part because it's sometimes true.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I will put this out there: most people who are pro-life are quick to send young men and women to go fight in a war. The same people who are pro-choice complain when an airstrike kills civilians. I myself am in the middle of the road on this issue. I don't like what Planned Parenthood is doing with these aborted fetuses/ babies because it's just sick and probably illegal anyway. I also think it's sick when people abort a fetus/ baby because of race or gender. When it comes down to it, I think it should be the mother's choice, but it should not be based on race. gender, or just because you changed your mind.

You don't like what PP is doing with the tissues? You mean handing them over legally to biomedical facilities to help find cures for things like Alzheimers and ALS?

[138]

I will put this out there: most people who are pro-life are quick to send young men and women to go fight in a war. The same people who are pro-choice complain when an airstrike kills civilians. I myself am in the middle of the road on this issue. I don't like what Planned Parenthood is doing with these aborted fetuses/ babies because it's just sick and probably illegal anyway. I also think it's sick when people abort a fetus/ baby because of race or gender. When it comes down to it, I think it should be the mother's choice, but it should not be based on race. gender, or just because you changed your mind.

You don't like what PP is doing with the tissues? You mean handing them over legally to biomedical facilities to help find cures for things like Alzheimers and ALS?

I said that you have to take the good with bad in the post above yours. If they are using the tissues for a good cause, I don't have too big of a problem with it. A lot of the dislike of PP is how they talk so nonchalantly about selling body parts. I don't know, it just seems a little messed up to me on a primal level.

[Socialist Tera]

Pro-choice.

[Arach-Naga Combine]

Is your bodily soveriegnty being invaded? Then you have a right to remove that invasion. No limitations, no caveats.

Invasion, after 7+ months of pregnancy? Even past viability, where it is ostensibly as easy to terminate as it is to give birth? At some point, doesn't it just become a matter of geography of the spawn (fetus, baby, whatever) and not bodily sovereignty?

(Playing devil's advocate, don't kill me)

The fact that choices leading up to that have resulted in a more dangerous situation, wasting a lot of resources from anything involved, and greatly perturbed relationships doesn't have anything to do with you having that right.

It's like the door locking/robbery thing. You're not at fault even if you leave your door open - but that doesn't mean you aren't an idiot for doing so.

[Ashmoria]

Curious lurker here, and sorry if this has been brought up before (I'm not going to read through 954 posts), but it seems like the question as framed in this thread is strictly black and white, which it most certainly is not.

My question is: To what extent does the pro-choice argument go? To clarify, do you support the right to have an abortion up until birth? If not, where do you draw the line?

I have no stake in this debate; I'm just curious.

my feeling is that it is something best left to the woman, her doctor and her family. so when you find a woman who aborted a healthy 9month fetus that was not endangering her health we can talk about that. until then it not going to worry about it.

[54e]

Invasion, after 7+ months of pregnancy? Even past viability, where it is ostensibly as easy to terminate as it is to give birth? At some point, doesn't it just become a matter of geography of the spawn (fetus, baby, whatever) and not bodily sovereignty?

(Playing devil's advocate, don't kill me)

The fact that choices leading up to that have resulted in a more dangerous situation, wasting a lot of resources from anything involved, and greatly perturbed relationships doesn't have anything to do with you having that right.

It's like the door locking/robbery thing. You're not at fault even if you leave your door open - but that doesn't mean you aren't an idiot for doing so.

Could you please clarify? I'm not entirely sure what this post is saying, and I want to make a well-informed response.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

You don't like what PP is doing with the tissues? You mean handing them over legally to biomedical facilities to help find cures for things like Alzheimers and ALS?

I said that you have to take the good with bad in the post above yours. If they are using the tissues for a good cause, I don't have too big of a problem with it. A lot of the dislike of PP is how they talk so nonchalantly about selling body parts. I don't know, it just seems a little messed up to me on a primal level.

1. PP acknowledged that the way the woman spoke was very nonchalant but at the same time she is used to discussing medical issues with medical people and I don't know if you are aware or not, but emotions don't really belong in non-psychological medical practice.
2. It was extremely edited to make that woman look worse than what she really was.

[54e]

Curious lurker here, and sorry if this has been brought up before (I'm not going to read through 954 posts), but it seems like the question as framed in this thread is strictly black and white, which it most certainly is not.

My question is: To what extent does the pro-choice argument go? To clarify, do you support the right to have an abortion up until birth? If not, where do you draw the line?

I have no stake in this debate; I'm just curious.

my feeling is that it is something best left to the woman, her doctor and her family. so when you find a woman who aborted a healthy 9month fetus that was not endangering her health we can talk about that. until then it not going to worry about it.

I'm not just talking about pregnancies carried to term and then aborted, I'm talking about late-term (or reasonably post-viability) pregnancies. This link makes it clear that third trimester abortions, while not common, are still widely practiced. (It's a useful link; it also gives some context/reasons for late abortions.)

[Ashmoria]

I will put this out there: most people who are pro-life are quick to send young men and women to go fight in a war. The same people who are pro-choice complain when an airstrike kills civilians. I myself am in the middle of the road on this issue. I don't like what Planned Parenthood is doing with these aborted fetuses/ babies because it's just sick and probably illegal anyway. I also think it's sick when people abort a fetus/ baby because of race or gender. When it comes down to it, I think it should be the mother's choice, but it should not be based on race. gender, or just because you changed your mind.

it is UTTERLY legal for planned parenthood to facilitate the donation of tissue of an aborted fetus.

just like it is UTTERLY legal for your doctor to facilitate the donation of YOUR tissue should you meet an untimely demise.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

my feeling is that it is something best left to the woman, her doctor and her family. so when you find a woman who aborted a healthy 9month fetus that was not endangering her health we can talk about that. until then it not going to worry about it.

I'm not just talking about pregnancies carried to term and then aborted, I'm talking about late-term (or reasonably post-viability) pregnancies. This link makes it clear that third trimester abortions, while not common, are still widely practiced. (It's a useful link; it also gives some context/reasons for late abortions.)

By "widely practiced" do you mean 1.5%? Because that's not really widely practiced. Past viability, the estimations are only at 0.08%. Wow. Soooo widely practiced.

[Ashmoria]

my feeling is that it is something best left to the woman, her doctor and her family. so when you find a woman who aborted a healthy 9month fetus that was not endangering her health we can talk about that. until then it not going to worry about it.

I'm not just talking about pregnancies carried to term and then aborted, I'm talking about late-term (or reasonably post-viability) pregnancies. This link makes it clear that third trimester abortions, while not common, are still widely practiced. (It's a useful link; it also gives some context/reasons for late abortions.)

so am I?

women are moral actors. I have no problem trusting that they will make the right decision for themselves and their families.

[138]

I will put this out there: most people who are pro-life are quick to send young men and women to go fight in a war. The same people who are pro-choice complain when an airstrike kills civilians. I myself am in the middle of the road on this issue. I don't like what Planned Parenthood is doing with these aborted fetuses/ babies because it's just sick and probably illegal anyway. I also think it's sick when people abort a fetus/ baby because of race or gender. When it comes down to it, I think it should be the mother's choice, but it should not be based on race. gender, or just because you changed your mind.

it is UTTERLY legal for planned parenthood to facilitate the donation of tissue of an aborted fetus.

just like it is UTTERLY legal for your doctor to facilitate the donation of YOUR tissue should you meet an untimely demise.

Well I did say "probably." I wasn't really sure to be honest. I've seen where it is legal while other places it isn't (fetuses). Wouldn't you have to donate your organs to a hospital in order for them to use them, or do they just take them? I imagine that a doctor would have to get written consent from you before you pass or from your loved ones. I really doubt they just take the organs, but then again, I could be wrong.