Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Dyakovo]

Creator of this thread is wrong.

Fetus is not a person, therefore it can't be murder.¹

Seriously, unconscious mixture of few cells doesn't count as 'human being'. So again, it can't possibly be a murder by any definition of it.

We can debate, though, when exactly it can be declared as a human being: when fetus is alive on it's own, with beating heart and already functional brain.²

And yes, I call it 'IT'.

1: Even if the foetus was considered a person, it still wouldn't be murder.
For a killing to be murder, it must fulfill all three of the following criteria:
A: It must be illegal.
B: A person must be killed.
C: It must be performed with malice aforethought
Abortion does not meet any of those criteria.
2: We could, but I don't see the point, since it has no bearing on the discussion what-so-ever.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

Creator of this thread is wrong.

Fetus is not a person, therefore it can't be murder.

Seriously, unconscious mixture of few cells doesn't count as 'human being'. So again, it can't possibly be a murder by any definition of it.

We can debate, though, when exactly it can be declared as a human being: when fetus is alive on it's own, with beating heart and already functional brain.

And yes, I call it 'IT'.

I don't think I classified it as a person...

[Godular]

Creator of this thread is wrong.

Fetus is not a person, therefore it can't be murder.

Seriously, unconscious mixture of few cells doesn't count as 'human being'. So again, it can't possibly be a murder by any definition of it.

We can debate, though, when exactly it can be declared as a human being: when fetus is alive on it's own, with beating heart and already functional brain.

And yes, I call it 'IT'.

I don't think I classified it as a person...

And I said the distinction was irrelevant in my portion. So not sure what he was yelling about.

[Adab]

As a Muslim, I personally am pro-life and do not endorse abortion, except under circumstances in which the fetus is under four months old, has severe deformities, and/or the mother's life is in danger.

[Galloism]

There's single parent surrender for adoption (which has existed forever pretty much), where no consent from the father is needed, and there's also safe haven laws in all 50 states that allow a mother to unilaterally terminate both hers and fathers' rights and responsibilities to the child. In most states, there is no process for the father to recover those rights (even if he knows about it). Those laws are about a decade old, I think.

If you're talking adoption, I agree that both parents should have option to not relinquish the child.

Of course, there are problems with that scenario, too (which, again, go away if we raised kids collectively) - like what if the reason the mom wants to have the kid adopted is that she and the father can't afford it... but he fights adoption.. It's thorny, and sometimes all the available answers are a choice between least-bad.

Collective responsibility for children is really the least-bad option, although I don't think I'll see it for another century or two.

[Neutraligon]

As a Muslim, I personally am pro-life and do not endorse abortion, except under circumstances in which the fetus is under four months old, has severe deformities, and/or the mother's life is in danger.

Most abortions happen well before the 4th month, those that happen after normally occur because the fetus is unlikely to be viable or the life of the mother is in danger.

[Lavochkin]

As a Muslim, I personally am pro-life and do not endorse abortion, except under circumstances in which the fetus is under four months old, has severe deformities, and/or the mother's life is in danger.

Religion should never play a role in medicinal science.

[KirbyFluffle]

I think you missed the part where I said:
I kept that in mind.

After rereading, my apologies. I meant to put person instead of human.

I did not. That was the part I was referring to. Because a fetus is a human. It's not a person, but it's definitely human.

When I said human in my big post, I meant person. Apologies.

[Stellonia]

As a Muslim, I personally am pro-life and do not endorse abortion, except under circumstances in which the fetus is under four months old, has severe deformities, and/or the mother's life is in danger.

Religion should never play a role in medicinal science.

Let us forget, then, that Leviticus 17:11 stated "for the life in the flesh is in the blood" thousands of years ago. In spite of this, bloodletting was a common medical practice until the late 19^th century.

Source: http://www.bcmj.org/premise/history-bloodletting

[Mefpan]

Religion should never play a role in medicinal science.

Let us forget, then, that Leviticus 17:11 stated "for the life in the flesh is in the blood" thousands of years ago. In spite of this, bloodletting was a common medical practice until the late 19^th century.

Source: http://www.bcmj.org/premise/history-bloodletting

...so basically, one instance in which scripture gets "Blood loss = bad" right (which, really, should not be that surprising) somehow means that religion is or ought to be an integral part of medical science?

Praying to heal diseases is an Elder Scrolls thing, last I checked.

[Stellonia]

Let us forget, then, that Leviticus 17:11 stated "for the life in the flesh is in the blood" thousands of years ago. In spite of this, bloodletting was a common medical practice until the late 19^th century.

Source: http://www.bcmj.org/premise/history-bloodletting

...so basically, one instance in which scripture gets "Blood loss = bad" right (which, really, should not be that surprising) somehow means that religion is or ought to be an integral part of medical science?

It took us almost 3,500 years after Leviticus was written to figure out that bloodletting is dangerous.

Praying to heal diseases is an Elder Scrolls thing, last I checked.

And prayer is not considered to be a substitution for a physician by most Christians.

[Mefpan]

...so basically, one instance in which scripture gets "Blood loss = bad" right (which, really, should not be that surprising) somehow means that religion is or ought to be an integral part of medical science?

It took us almost 3,500 years after Leviticus was written to figure out that bloodletting is dangerous.

Praying to heal diseases is an Elder Scrolls thing, last I checked.

And prayer is not considered to be a substitution for a physician by most Christians.

Regardless, pointing out one instance where scripture would trump long-accepted treatment procedures is a horrible kind of statistic. Like, we're looking at one specific instance and find that scripture's right. Does that mean if I see you trip and fall flat on your face on your way to school, work or whatever once, I can reasonably conclude that you must therefore trip and fall flat on your face every day on your way to school or work?

It should be obvious that that's kind of an extremely silly-small reference pool for drawing conclusions.

[Stellonia]

Job 26:7 states, "He... hangs the earth on nothing", while Isaiah 40:22 states, "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth," (note that the Hebrew word for circle also means sphere).

[Mefpan]

Job 26:7 states, "He... hangs the earth on nothing", while Isaiah 40:22 states, "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth," (note that the Hebrew word for circle also means sphere).

1) This doesn't really go against previous assumptions of how the universe works and may actually be taken as incorrect given that Earth is "hanging" in orbit around our local star by way of gravity.
2) After checking, I'm surprised that it indeed does. Given that the Church went on to roll with the "circular" (circles: generally flat) translation and actively persecuted people who thought an alternate model might be more accurate, I must remain skeptical towards the utility of scripture as basis for science when there's translation going wrong in that many places.

[Seventh Oblivion]

Okay, I know this opinion may be comepletely different than others, but:

Abortion really breaks my heart. I would hate to know that even just a clump of cells had lost all of those potential life experiences I understand that the fetus might not know what is happening at all, but losing all of those years as a human being is just terrible

I have had many years on this planet. I have laughed, cried, made friends, learnt new things, I have been to many places, I have seen beautiful things, I have done all this, but when someone has an abortion, it makes all of that impossible. I respect everyones opinions and I am willing to talk about it. I also know that abortion can be okay if the woman was raped or having the baby threatens her life. But if a woman gets pregnant because she and her partner did not use protection/they were stupid and wreckless, I think that baby deserves to live.

[Ardavia]

Okay, I know this opinion may be comepletely different than others, but:

Abortion really breaks my heart. I would hate to know that even just a clump of cells had lost all of those potential life experiences I understand that the fetus might not know what is happening at all, but losing all of those years as a human being is just terrible

I have had many years on this planet. I have laughed, cried, made friends, learnt new things, I have been to many places, I have seen beautiful things, I have done all this, but when someone has an abortion, it makes all of that impossible. I respect everyones opinions and I am willing to talk about it. I also know that abortion can be okay if the woman was raped or having the baby threatens her life. But if a woman gets pregnant because she and her partner did not use protection/they were stupid and wreckless, I think that baby deserves to live.

A fetus =/= a baby.

What makes rape spawn different?

Okay, it's great that you think the fetus deserves to live. Should we force women to suffer through pregnancy because they failed to meet your arbitrary standards for not being "reckless"?

[Seventh Oblivion]

Okay, I know this opinion may be comepletely different than others, but:

Abortion really breaks my heart. I would hate to know that even just a clump of cells had lost all of those potential life experiences I understand that the fetus might not know what is happening at all, but losing all of those years as a human being is just terrible

I have had many years on this planet. I have laughed, cried, made friends, learnt new things, I have been to many places, I have seen beautiful things, I have done all this, but when someone has an abortion, it makes all of that impossible. I respect everyones opinions and I am willing to talk about it. I also know that abortion can be okay if the woman was raped or having the baby threatens her life. But if a woman gets pregnant because she and her partner did not use protection/they were stupid and wreckless, I think that baby deserves to live.

A fetus =/= a baby.

What makes rape spawn different?

Okay, it's great that you think the fetus deserves to live. Should we force women to suffer through pregnancy because they failed to meet your arbitrary standards for not being "reckless"?

I just think that if someone does not think it all through, they could just put it up for adoption instead of getting rid of it.

[Ardavia]

A fetus =/= a baby.

What makes rape spawn different?

Okay, it's great that you think the fetus deserves to live. Should we force women to suffer through pregnancy because they failed to meet your arbitrary standards for not being "reckless"?

I just think that if someone does not think it all through, they could just put it up for adoption instead of getting rid of it.

Adoption does not solve the problem of an unwanted pregnancy.

Here, I'll link you to the very handy OP, which you clearly didn't read.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=352777

[Wallenburg]

Okay, I know this opinion may be comepletely different than others, but:

Abortion really breaks my heart. I would hate to know that even just a clump of cells had lost all of those potential life experiences I understand that the fetus might not know what is happening at all, but losing all of those years as a human being is just terrible

I have had many years on this planet. I have laughed, cried, made friends, learnt new things, I have been to many places, I have seen beautiful things, I have done all this, but when someone has an abortion, it makes all of that impossible. I respect everyones opinions and I am willing to talk about it. I also know that abortion can be okay if the woman was raped or having the baby threatens her life. But if a woman gets pregnant because she and her partner did not use protection/they were stupid and wreckless, I think that baby deserves to live.

So a fetus conceived out of rape, or having complications, has less rights than one conceived because a couple didn't use contraceptives?

[Seventh Oblivion]

I totally understand where all of you are coming from, I suppose I have felt like this my entire life. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my views on abortion, I was simply putting my opinion out there. Thinking about it now, my views have slightly changed.

[Wallenburg]

I totally understand where all of you are coming from, I suppose I have felt like this my entire life. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my views on abortion, I was simply putting my opinion out there. Thinking about it now, my views have slightly changed.

Opinions shouldn't offend people. But I'm glad that you seem open to debate.

[Neutraligon]

Religion should never play a role in medicinal science.

Let us forget, then, that Leviticus 17:11 stated "for the life in the flesh is in the blood" thousands of years ago. In spite of this, bloodletting was a common medical practice until the late 19^th century.

Source: http://www.bcmj.org/premise/history-bloodletting

Considering it was kind of obvious that people die when they bleed-out that is not all that great of a "discovery" blood letting was supposed to be a controlled loss of blood. Oh and just so you know, jews also practiced blood letting. Funny thing, there are times when blood letting with leaches is a good thing, like in crush injuries or after surgery.

The earth does not hang on anything, it continually falls.

After looking up the passage, it is too not scientifically accurate, or even intended to be. The entire sentence in Isaiah is a series of metaphors, I mean people are not grasshoppers, the heavens are not a tent, and the circle of the earth is probably a phrase used to mean the entirety of the earth. Another thing, it is a myth that people of that time thought the Earth was flat, for instance the Greeks at the time of writing that particular passage where already thinking the earth was spheroid.

[Sun Wukong]

...so basically, one instance in which scripture gets "Blood loss = bad" right (which, really, should not be that surprising) somehow means that religion is or ought to be an integral part of medical science?

It took us almost 3,500 years after Leviticus was written to figure out that bloodletting is dangerous.

You realize this is stupid right? I mean, what specific information is Leviticus giving? That loss of blood can kill? These people regularly slaughter cattle, they're aware of the fact.

But if you're going to be pedantic about it, then strictly speaking, it's not accurate. The life of the flesh is not in the blood. In fact, blood is in many ways less alive then the flesh. Blood cells are not nucleic, so unlike most other human cells, you couldn't grow a human being from one.

And while we're being pedantic, it was the Christians who perpetuated the humors theory of medicine. In fact, if you check you'll find that a medical degree in the late medieval period was only available with a degree in theology. So what you're really saying is that Christians are able to consistently misinterpret their own scripture for thousands of years without noticing.

[Radfems Inc]

So what you're really saying is that Christians are able to consistently misinterpret their own scripture for thousands of years without noticing.

Um, yes. Yes they can.

[Lost heros]

Okay, I know this opinion may be comepletely different than others, but:

Abortion really breaks my heart. I would hate to know that even just a clump of cells had lost all of those potential life experiences I understand that the fetus might not know what is happening at all, but losing all of those years as a human being is just terrible

I have had many years on this planet. I have laughed, cried, made friends, learnt new things, I have been to many places, I have seen beautiful things, I have done all this, but when someone has an abortion, it makes all of that impossible. I respect everyones opinions and I am willing to talk about it. I also know that abortion can be okay if the woman was raped or having the baby threatens her life. But if a woman gets pregnant because she and her partner did not use protection/they were stupid and wreckless, I think that baby deserves to live.

First let me make this clear. No one like abortion. I couldn't imagine anyone, unless they're a criminal psychopath or eugenicist, favor abortion over birth. However, that does not mean we should restrict access to abortion because the fact of the matter is, women need them.

There are many circumstances in which women choose to have an abortion, whether it is rape, the pregnancy is threatening her life, the fetus has a disorder that could ruin the quality of life, financial stress, social stress, or a multitude of other reasons that make the woman's life significantly more difficult during and potentially after the pregnancy.

Because of this we find it necessary to allow women to terminate their pregnancies so that they don't have to deal with this potential burden if they choose not to. For example, say a woman and her boyfriend have sex, and either they weren't using protection because they didn't receive proper sex education or the protection failed, and the woman gets pregnant. She is not in a stable family-providing relationship and doesn't have the economic means to support herself and a child. Therefore she should not be forced to carry through the pregnancy in which her economic situation will get worse because it is hard to work as normal when pregnant and it would assuredly put strain on her relationship with her boyfriend because pregnancy tends to do that, if she does not want to. Of course she could make the decision to keep the baby or put it up for adoption post-pregnancy, but that's the point. It's her choice whether or not to accept the stress that will be made on to her body and her life or not for an unplanned pregnancy.