On Creationism and Evolution.

[Zoice]

They already are anathema.

That's only a modern phenomena.

It's a modern phenomena to be intellectually honest and recognize the contradiction between science and religion, and the methods they use.

[The Rich Port]

That's only a modern phenomena.

It's a modern phenomena to be intellectually honest and recognize the contradiction between science and religion, and the methods they use.

REALLY modern, too.

It wasn't until 1968 that there was a widespread adoption of evolution in classrooms, and even then, it was after a legal battle.

[The Rich Port]

... And as late as 1987, Creationism was taught in Louisiana public schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_v._Aguillard

[Republic of Mezoamerican States]

That being said, what say you, NSG? Are you a creationist, do you agree with evolution or not? Any flaws you might think the whole thing has? Does it even make sense to say that evolution contradicts religion? Is the conflict thesis even necessary? What are your thoughts?

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

[Salandriagado]

Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics.

The earth is not a closed system. There's an enormous and very obvious source of energy.

The fact is that evolution happened and continues to happen.

The theory is about exactly how it happens.

We haven't seen a species tranform to another. What I see is that moths turned black in the Industrial Revolution and living things adapt to their enviroment, but we haven't watched anything turn to another species.

False, actually. We've seen it lots of times.

[Godular]

Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics.

The earth is not a closed system. There's an enormous and very obvious source of energy.

Why, it's as plain as day!

[Godular]

That being said, what say you, NSG? Are you a creationist, do you agree with evolution or not? Any flaws you might think the whole thing has? Does it even make sense to say that evolution contradicts religion? Is the conflict thesis even necessary? What are your thoughts?

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

Evolution very much does explain how speciation occurs, and it happens all the time.

[Farnhamia]

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

Evolution very much does explain how speciation occurs, and it happens all the time.

I think he means the origin of life. That's not evolution's job.

[The Ben Boys]

That's only a modern phenomena.

It's a modern phenomena to be intellectually honest and recognize the contradiction between science and religion, and the methods they use.

It's a modern phenomena to limit yourself to one or the other out of stubbornness and fear.

[Godular]

Evolution very much does explain how speciation occurs, and it happens all the time.

I think he means the origin of life. That's not evolution's job.

Well thar ya go on that front too.

[New confederate ramenia]

Science can't refute religion without inherent circular reasoning, and most religions don't take their creation story so literally that they reject evolution.

[Quokkastan]

Science can't refute religion without inherent circular reasoning, and most religions don't take their creation story so literally that they reject evolution.

As a category, no. Religion refers to a potentially infinite spectrum of ideas, many of which are not clearly defined.

Science can refute any testable claims religion makes. If your religion demands daily blood sacrifice to make the sun come up, we can test that.

[Korhal IVV]

That being said, what say you, NSG? Are you a creationist, do you agree with evolution or not? Any flaws you might think the whole thing has? Does it even make sense to say that evolution contradicts religion? Is the conflict thesis even necessary? What are your thoughts?

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

Out of nothing. Its called omnipotence.

[Lost heros]

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

Out of nothing. Its called omnipotence.

Were you not just complaining about the second law of thermodynamics.

[Zoice]

It's a modern phenomena to be intellectually honest and recognize the contradiction between science and religion, and the methods they use.

It's a modern phenomena to limit yourself to one or the other out of stubbornness and fear.

People who use religion without any science are often stubborn and or afraid. The same cannot be said of people use eschew religion and use science.

[The Ben Boys]

That being said, what say you, NSG? Are you a creationist, do you agree with evolution or not? Any flaws you might think the whole thing has? Does it even make sense to say that evolution contradicts religion? Is the conflict thesis even necessary? What are your thoughts?

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

Interestingly enough, the "seven days" in the original Hebrew refers to "seven periods of time"; the "day" translation is largely an inference that hasn't mattered until the last few years.

There are six geological eons of the Earth, and a time period before earth. For those not good at math, that is seven.

And for those guys that say "WELL WHY DOESNT 'GOD' JUST SAY THAT??" on both sides of the debate, do you really think that He should explain metaphysical concepts to people whose highlight of education is farming?

[The Ben Boys]

It's a modern phenomena to limit yourself to one or the other out of stubbornness and fear.

People who use religion without any science are often stubborn and or afraid. The same cannot be said of people use eschew religion and use science.

I said it, so it can be said. And it is most certainly true. You don't have to be religious to recognize that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Zoice]

People who use religion without any science are often stubborn and or afraid. The same cannot be said of people use eschew religion and use science.

I said it, so it can be said. And it is most certainly true. You don't have to be religious to recognize that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I didn't literally mean that it can't be said. You're right that they aren't literally mutually exclusive, because cognitive dissonance, people can hold contradictory beliefs.

Why do you think the non-religious are non-religious? What does stubbornness or fear have to do with it?

[The Rich Port]

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

Interestingly enough, the "seven days" in the original Hebrew refers to "seven periods of time"; the "day" translation is largely an inference that hasn't mattered until the last few years.

There are six geological eons of the Earth, and a time period before earth. For those not good at math, that is seven.

And for those guys that say "WELL WHY DOESNT 'GOD' JUST SAY THAT??" on both sides of the debate, do you really think that He should explain metaphysical concepts to people whose highlight of education is farming?

... Yeah, because farming is super easy.

[The Ben Boys]

I said it, so it can be said. And it is most certainly true. You don't have to be religious to recognize that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I didn't literally mean that it can't be said. You're right that they aren't literally mutually exclusive, because cognitive dissonance, people can hold contradictory beliefs.

Why do you think the non-religious are non-religious? What does stubbornness or fear have to do with it?

I'm not saying that the non-religious are that way out of stubbornness and fear.

And science and religion are not contradictory. That is position has a stench of stubbornness and fear. Oh, and let's throw in massive lack of knowledge in there too. Because people reading books thousands of years old forget to read it in the original context. Look at my post on the "seven days".

Interestingly enough, the "seven days" in the original Hebrew refers to "seven periods of time"; the "day" translation is largely an inference that hasn't mattered until the last few years.

There are six geological eons of the Earth, and a time period before earth. For those not good at math, that is seven.

And for those guys that say "WELL WHY DOESNT 'GOD' JUST SAY THAT??" on both sides of the debate, do you really think that He should explain metaphysical concepts to people whose highlight of education is farming?

... Yeah, because farming is super easy.

Not saying it is, I'm merely saying that metaphysics (maybe even the origin of the universe in general) take a back seat to your job is your survival.

[Quokkastan]

Creationism suggests that God created all creatures, but the Bible makes no mention of how.
Evolution observes that species change their phenotypes over time in response to environmental factors through the process of sexual reproduction, but does not answer how any particular species came into being in the first place.
Each leaves a hole large enough for the other.

Interestingly enough, the "seven days" in the original Hebrew refers to "seven periods of time"; the "day" translation is largely an inference that hasn't mattered until the last few years.

Except Genesis defines what it means by "day."

"God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day." - Genesis 1:5

There are six geological eons of the Earth, and a time period before earth. For those not good at math, that is seven.

There are ways you can divide it up to get six. Though doing that would mean that God has been resting for at least the last 65 million years. Which would mean that God created all the land creatures, and humans, sometime during the Mesozoic (age of dinosaurs.)

And for those guys that say "WELL WHY DOESNT 'GOD' JUST SAY THAT??" on both sides of the debate, do you really think that He should explain metaphysical concepts to people whose highlight of education is farming?

I don't expect God to perfectly elaborate complex concepts to primitive agriculturalists. I do expect him to do a better job than I could, and I could do a better job then Genesis.

[Zoice]

I didn't literally mean that it can't be said. You're right that they aren't literally mutually exclusive, because cognitive dissonance, people can hold contradictory beliefs.

Why do you think the non-religious are non-religious? What does stubbornness or fear have to do with it?

I'm not saying that the non-religious are that way out of stubbornness and fear.

And science and religion are not contradictory. That is position has a stench of stubbornness and fear. Oh, and let's throw in massive lack of knowledge in there too. Because people reading books thousands of years old forget to read it in the original context. Look at my post on the "seven days".

Your post on seven days is as rigorous as numerology. Ad hoc matching means nothing, the bible has no predictive value and it is useless.

[Korhal IVV]

Interestingly enough, the "seven days" in the original Hebrew refers to "seven periods of time"; the "day" translation is largely an inference that hasn't mattered until the last few years.

Except Genesis defines what it means by "day."

"God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day." - Genesis 1:5

There are six geological eons of the Earth, and a time period before earth. For those not good at math, that is seven.

There are ways you can divide it up to get six. Though doing that would mean that God has been resting for at least the last 65 million years. Which would mean that God created all the land creatures, and humans, sometime during the Mesozoic (age of dinosaurs.)

And for those guys that say "WELL WHY DOESNT 'GOD' JUST SAY THAT??" on both sides of the debate, do you really think that He should explain metaphysical concepts to people whose highlight of education is farming?

I don't expect God to perfectly elaborate complex concepts to primitive agriculturalists. I do expect him to do a better job than I could, and I could do a better job then Genesis.

How.

[The Ben Boys]

I'm not saying that the non-religious are that way out of stubbornness and fear.

And science and religion are not contradictory. That is position has a stench of stubbornness and fear. Oh, and let's throw in massive lack of knowledge in there too. Because people reading books thousands of years old forget to read it in the original context. Look at my post on the "seven days".

Your post on seven days is as rigorous as numerology. Ad hoc matching means nothing, the bible has no predictive value and it is useless.

No, it's pointing out that, God forbid (hehe), people should actually think about context. I'm not advocating it, I'm drawing attention to an oft overlooked detail.

-snip-

I'll preface this by saying I have some limited experience in this field, not just as a religious person but I'm studying Theology at the university.

1. IIRC (and it's entirely possibly I'm wrong) there is some muddling to the "light" and "day" part. "Day" can mean a day as in 24 hours, or as a time of daylight within that 24 hours. Regardless, it's worked out for most of it's existence.

2. So? I fail to see how you are doing anything but elaborating on a point I made. Nothing wrong with God spending 65 million years creating the dinosaurs. Nothing wrong with an established geological time table either.

3. Ok, well, that's a matter of opinion. I find the account rather poetic whether or not it is 100% literal or a grand reiteration of history in a way we can't even fathom.

You guys should know, I'm not advocating for that version of the origin of life (that the 7 days took the last few billion years), and to be honest I don't know what the origin of life is, and I am content with that. What I am advocating is that it wouldn't hurt for everyone to do some research into this, not diving it into camps that have been artificially constructed in recent memory by grumpy old people and disgruntled youths.

[The Rich Port]

I don't expect God to perfectly elaborate complex concepts to primitive agriculturalists. I do expect him to do a better job than I could, and I could do a better job then Genesis.

Especially considering he's omnipotent and omniscient.

But no. The Hebrew language (WHICH HE INVENTED) causes him trouble with explanations.