Christian Discussion Thread VII: The Christ Awakens.

[Muinordgrad]

Sooooooo.....

What interesting topic are we discussing today?

(And I mean this sincerely)

Book of Enoch, Orthodox church, Orthodox-Catholic reunification.

[Athartha]

I'm being confirmed as an Anglican later this month. I was baptised Roman Catholic but never confirmed; I started to attend an Anglican Church last year.

May I ask, out of curiousity, why you are being confirmed Anglican and not Catholic?

[Living Stones]

Quite the contrary... It was pretty much the worst time in the entire history of Orthodoxy (after the fall of the Byzantine Empire, but before the rise of Russia).

Although the 8th century can also compete for the title of "worst time for Orthodoxy".

Yes, that's what I mean Hmm... I wonder what Martin Luther thought of Orthodoxy? If he did at all.

Ah, Iconoclasm, right?

He himself certainly held them in higher regard than the Catholicism, and other Protestants did seriously contemplate some sort of merger with them, but, as you might guess, differing views on icons, among other things, meant this never really took off.
From a Protestant perspective: http://www.christianitytoday.com/histor ... hurch.html
From an Orthodox perspective: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_luther.aspx

[Constantinopolis]

I have to go offline in a couple of minutes, so I wasn't able to write a reply to your entire post, Muinordgrad, but I just wanted to address this part:

That's something else I really just don't understand: the sheer amount of revering towards Mary. I know it is probably more prominent in Catholic than Orthodox teachings, but I do not understand why Mary is nearly deified in at least Catholicism, and maybe Orthodox ( I am not familiar with the Orthodox policies towards Mary). There are all indications of Mary being a person just like us, who sinned and did other bad things. I am not saying I disrespect Mary, her model of quiet and determined perserverance is something we can all look up to, but why is she given the sheer amount of praise in both?

Mary represents the connection between Christ and Humanity. We call her the Theotokos (literally "God-bearer", but most often rendered as "Mother of God") as an ever-present reminder that Jesus actually had a human mother. He was born. He was a baby. He was a child. He grew up. In a word, He was human (in addition to being God).

It may sound odd to emphasize this today, when everyone can agree that Jesus was human and it's the God thing that people have a problem with. But in the ancient world, it was easy to get people to agree that Jesus was either God or some other type of higher power (yes, even the pagans had no problem agreeing with this; what's one more god among hundreds?). It was the claim that Jesus was also human that they had a problem with. It was the claim that GOD BECAME MAN that was controversial (and also the claim that this God was the only god, but we can leave that aside for the moment).

God became man. That was one of the chief claims of Christianity that both pagans and Jews strongly opposed. So the Christians repeatedly emphasized the humanity of Jesus Christ. God became man. God became one of us. God was born (so let's celebrate His birth! - and thus, Christmas was invented). And God had a mother. So let's honour her.

The veneration of the Theotokos is, first and foremost, an enthusiastic affirmation of the fact that GOD BECAME MAN.

[Herith]

I'm being confirmed as an Anglican later this month. I was baptised Roman Catholic but never confirmed; I started to attend an Anglican Church last year.

May I ask, out of curiousity, why you are being confirmed Anglican and not Catholic?

I was asked not to return to my (Catholic) Church, but the Anglican parish near by was very welcoming.

[Muinordgrad]

I have to go offline in a couple of minutes, so I wasn't able to write a reply to your entire post, Muinordgrad, but I just wanted to address this part:

That's something else I really just don't understand: the sheer amount of revering towards Mary. I know it is probably more prominent in Catholic than Orthodox teachings, but I do not understand why Mary is nearly deified in at least Catholicism, and maybe Orthodox ( I am not familiar with the Orthodox policies towards Mary). There are all indications of Mary being a person just like us, who sinned and did other bad things. I am not saying I disrespect Mary, her model of quiet and determined perserverance is something we can all look up to, but why is she given the sheer amount of praise in both?

Mary represents the connection between Christ and Humanity. We call her the Theotokos (literally "God-bearer", but most often rendered as "Mother of God") as an ever-present reminder that Jesus actually had a human mother. He was born. He was a baby. He was a child. He grew up. In a word, He was human (in addition to being God).

It may sound odd to emphasize this today, when everyone can agree that Jesus was human and it's the God thing that people have a problem with. But in the ancient world, it was easy to get people to agree that Jesus was either God or some other type of higher power (yes, even the pagans had no problem agreeing with this; what's one more god among hundreds?). It was the claim that Jesus was also human that they had a problem with. It was the claim that GOD BECAME MAN that was controversial (and also the claim that this God was the only god, but we can leave that aside for the moment).

God became man. That was one of the chief claims of Christianity that both pagans and Jews strongly opposed. So the Christians repeatedly emphasized the humanity of Jesus Christ. God became man. God became one of us. God was born (so let's celebrate His birth! - and thus, Christmas was invented). And God had a mother. So let's honour her.

The veneration of the Theotokos is, first and foremost, an enthusiastic affirmation of the fact that GOD BECAME MAN.

I don't think I ever connected that, thank you for sharing that with me! I will definitely take that into consideration!

[Diopolis]

I have to go offline in a couple of minutes, so I wasn't able to write a reply to your entire post, Muinordgrad, but I just wanted to address this part:

That's something else I really just don't understand: the sheer amount of revering towards Mary. I know it is probably more prominent in Catholic than Orthodox teachings, but I do not understand why Mary is nearly deified in at least Catholicism, and maybe Orthodox ( I am not familiar with the Orthodox policies towards Mary). There are all indications of Mary being a person just like us, who sinned and did other bad things. I am not saying I disrespect Mary, her model of quiet and determined perserverance is something we can all look up to, but why is she given the sheer amount of praise in both?

Mary represents the connection between Christ and Humanity. We call her the Theotokos (literally "God-bearer", but most often rendered as "Mother of God") as an ever-present reminder that Jesus actually had a human mother. He was born. He was a baby. He was a child. He grew up. In a word, He was human (in addition to being God).

It may sound odd to emphasize this today, when everyone can agree that Jesus was human and it's the God thing that people have a problem with. But in the ancient world, it was easy to get people to agree that Jesus was either God or some other type of higher power (yes, even the pagans had no problem agreeing with this; what's one more god among hundreds?). It was the claim that Jesus was also human that they had a problem with. It was the claim that GOD BECAME MAN that was controversial (and also the claim that this God was the only god, but we can leave that aside for the moment).

God became man. That was one of the chief claims of Christianity that both pagans and Jews strongly opposed. So the Christians repeatedly emphasized the humanity of Jesus Christ. God became man. God became one of us. God was born (so let's celebrate His birth! - and thus, Christmas was invented). And God had a mother. So let's honour her.

The veneration of the Theotokos is, first and foremost, an enthusiastic affirmation of the fact that GOD BECAME MAN.

In addition to that, Catholics believe in the immaculate conception- Mary was conceived and born without sin. There are only a tiny handful of people for whom that's true- Adam and Eve, Jesus, and in some views John the Baptist and St. Joseph. Of those, Adam and Eve fell, and Jesus was also God. So Mary is the clearest example of a perfect human we have- in other words, she is what we all were meant to be(obviously, we weren't all meant to be Christ because of the whole God thing, and the other two may not have even been completely without sin).

[Novsvacro]

I have to go offline in a couple of minutes, so I wasn't able to write a reply to your entire post, Muinordgrad, but I just wanted to address this part:


Mary represents the connection between Christ and Humanity. We call her the Theotokos (literally "God-bearer", but most often rendered as "Mother of God") as an ever-present reminder that Jesus actually had a human mother. He was born. He was a baby. He was a child. He grew up. In a word, He was human (in addition to being God).

It may sound odd to emphasize this today, when everyone can agree that Jesus was human and it's the God thing that people have a problem with. But in the ancient world, it was easy to get people to agree that Jesus was either God or some other type of higher power (yes, even the pagans had no problem agreeing with this; what's one more god among hundreds?). It was the claim that Jesus was also human that they had a problem with. It was the claim that GOD BECAME MAN that was controversial (and also the claim that this God was the only god, but we can leave that aside for the moment).

God became man. That was one of the chief claims of Christianity that both pagans and Jews strongly opposed. So the Christians repeatedly emphasized the humanity of Jesus Christ. God became man. God became one of us. God was born (so let's celebrate His birth! - and thus, Christmas was invented). And God had a mother. So let's honour her.

The veneration of the Theotokos is, first and foremost, an enthusiastic affirmation of the fact that GOD BECAME MAN.

In addition to that, Catholics believe in the immaculate conception- Mary was conceived and born without sin. There are only a tiny handful of people for whom that's true- Adam and Eve, Jesus, and in some views John the Baptist and St. Joseph. Of those, Adam and Eve fell, and Jesus was also God. So Mary is the clearest example of a perfect human we have- in other words, she is what we all were meant to be(obviously, we weren't all meant to be Christ because of the whole God thing, and the other two may not have even been completely without sin).

Is there any reference in Scripture to the Immaculate Conception?

EDIT: I will declare a crusade against you if you say "Well, if you read the New Testament Apocrphya..."

[Soldati Senza Confini]

May I ask, out of curiousity, why you are being confirmed Anglican and not Catholic?

I was asked not to return to my (Catholic) Church, but the Anglican parish near by was very welcoming.

Why were you asked not to return, or is it too personal?

[Bari]

May I ask, out of curiousity, why you are being confirmed Anglican and not Catholic?

I was asked not to return to my (Catholic) Church, but the Anglican parish near by was very welcoming.

Who asked you not to return?

[Diopolis]

In addition to that, Catholics believe in the immaculate conception- Mary was conceived and born without sin. There are only a tiny handful of people for whom that's true- Adam and Eve, Jesus, and in some views John the Baptist and St. Joseph. Of those, Adam and Eve fell, and Jesus was also God. So Mary is the clearest example of a perfect human we have- in other words, she is what we all were meant to be(obviously, we weren't all meant to be Christ because of the whole God thing, and the other two may not have even been completely without sin).

Is there any reference in Scripture to the Immaculate Conception?

EDIT: I will declare a crusade against you if you say "Well, if you read the New Testament Apocrphya..."

The gospel story of the annunciation has the Angel Gabriel address Mary "Hail, full of grace"- a form of address used nowhere else for nowhere else. Looked at through the lens of Catholic theology, the conclusion is nearly inescapable: Mary was somehow free of sin at the time. The immaculate conception is the solution to that chosen by the church.

[Luminesa]

May I ask, out of curiousity, why you are being confirmed Anglican and not Catholic?

I was asked not to return to my (Catholic) Church, but the Anglican parish near by was very welcoming.

Man, why they kicked you out?

Catholic churches ain't supposed to be kicking people out.

[Herith]

I was asked not to return to my (Catholic) Church, but the Anglican parish near by was very welcoming.

Who asked you not to return?

I was asked not to return to my (Catholic) Church, but the Anglican parish near by was very welcoming.

Why were you asked not to return, or is it too personal?

I was asked not to return to my (Catholic) Church, but the Anglican parish near by was very welcoming.

Man, why they kicked you out?

Catholic churches ain't supposed to be kicking people out.

I was 15 when it happened, but basically, around that time, I developed coprolalia (as a side note, I have tourettes), which is the involuntary use of obscene language. It became pretty bad, and the congregation made several complaints in regards to it, and eventually the priest sat me down and said I was making others uncomfortable and they'd prefer it if I no longer attended - but offered to bring the Eucharist to my house after Mass every Sunday.

I went to my local Anglican Church and no one was bothered by it, instead, they welcomed me and embraced me for who I am. Their parish nurse worked with me in relaxation techniques to help my tics, and techniques on how to suppress my tics for longer (tics are involuntary, but can be suppressed for a short period of time). My coprolalia is almost non-existent now (tics also come and go), but I have never considered going back to the Catholic Church. I was made to feel like I should be ashamed about myself for something I can't control, like I wasn't meant to be a part of society when there is really nothing wrong with me at all.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Who asked you not to return?

Why were you asked not to return, or is it too personal?

Man, why they kicked you out?

Catholic churches ain't supposed to be kicking people out.

I was 15 when it happened, but basically, around that time, I developed coprolalia (as a side note, I have tourettes), which is the involuntary use of obscene language. It became pretty bad, and the congregation made several complaints in regards to it, and eventually the priest sat me down and said I was making others uncomfortable and they'd prefer it if I no longer attended - but offered to bring the Eucharist to my house after Mass every Sunday.

I went to my local Anglican Church and no one was bothered by it, instead, they welcomed me and embraced me for who I am. Their parish nurse worked with me in relaxation techniques to help my tics, and techniques on how to suppress my tics for longer (tics are involuntary, but can be suppressed for a short period of time). My coprolalia is almost non-existent now (tics also come and go), but I have never considered going back to the Catholic Church. I was made to feel like I should be ashamed about myself for something I can't control, like I wasn't meant to be a part of society when there is really nothing wrong with me at all.

That sounds unfair, in your Catholic church I mean.

At the same time, I am very happy you found a church which welcomed you with open arms and they provided the help and acceptance you needed.

[Conscentia]

[...] coprolalia [...]

That's the term they chose for that? Because that's somewhat vulgar itself if you know what the Greek it's derived from means. (Copro- from 'κόπρος' (kopros) meaning 'faeces', and -lalia from 'λαλιά' (lalia), itself from 'lalein', meaning "to talk".)

[Tarsonis Survivors]

He belonged to the Church before your schism. He is a Catholic Saint. He is also a Doctor of the Church. I don't see why you think he can't be regarded as Catholic.

Because he belonged to a part of the universal Church that never paid any attention to claims of supremacy by the bishop of Rome, and which was organized like the present-day Orthodox Church, held precisely the same beliefs as the present-day Orthodox Church, and used the same liturgies as the present-day Orthodox Church.

And because it is beyond preposterous to suggest that St. John Damascene would have ever endorsed your heresy of the filioque, the submission of his Patriarch to the bishop of Rome, or the imposition of Latin Rite practices on his flock, which is what your Church promoted for 90% of its existence before suddenly changing its mind when it was no longer convenient.

And here we see Cont upset over literally nothing. There are dozens of Saints shared between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. No point in getting over a tizzy about it.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Out of interest, what would you call him? Since there was, technically, neither an Orthodox or Catholic Church? Would you just say catholic (as in the universal church) saint?

I would call him an Orthodox saint, as I believe that the Orthodox Church is the original Church of Christ, which included the Patriarchs of Rome as first among equals for almost a thousand years, until their pride combined with Frankish political pressure caused them to fall away from the true Church and to form the breakaway group known today as the Roman Catholic Church.

But for the sake of being charitable, I can also refer to all pre-11th century saints as simply Christian saints, or Chalcedonian Christian saints.

There's something incredibly amusing about Orthodox and Catholics arguing slinging mud about pride.

[Tutukerala]

Is there any reference in Scripture to the Immaculate Conception?

EDIT: I will declare a crusade against you if you say "Well, if you read the New Testament Apocrphya..."

The gospel story of the annunciation has the Angel Gabriel address Mary "Hail, full of grace"- a form of address used nowhere else for nowhere else. Looked at through the lens of Catholic theology, the conclusion is nearly inescapable: Mary was somehow free of sin at the time. The immaculate conception is the solution to that chosen by the church.

Really? Because any study of the Church Fathers would contradict that claim. Majority of the Church Fathers believed that Mary was sinful up till her Annucation. I mean the Immaculate Conception was debated starting from Aquinas to Trent, and even then it wasn't dogma. I hold that Mary was sinless at her Annucation and her 9 months holding Christ( it should be hard to sin when you have Christ literally in you).

[Herith]

[...] coprolalia [...]

That's the term they chose for that? Because that's somewhat vulgar itself if you know what the Greek it's derived from means. (Copro- from 'κόπρος' (kopros) meaning 'faeces', and -lalia from 'λαλιά' (lalia), itself from 'lalein', meaning "to talk".)

It is. When I was told I'd "developed" coprolalia, my doctor told me that to make me laugh at least a little about it. The tic for making obscene gestures (such as "flipping the bird") is called copropraxia, faeces+gestures.

I was 15 when it happened, but basically, around that time, I developed coprolalia (as a side note, I have tourettes), which is the involuntary use of obscene language. It became pretty bad, and the congregation made several complaints in regards to it, and eventually the priest sat me down and said I was making others uncomfortable and they'd prefer it if I no longer attended - but offered to bring the Eucharist to my house after Mass every Sunday.

I went to my local Anglican Church and no one was bothered by it, instead, they welcomed me and embraced me for who I am. Their parish nurse worked with me in relaxation techniques to help my tics, and techniques on how to suppress my tics for longer (tics are involuntary, but can be suppressed for a short period of time). My coprolalia is almost non-existent now (tics also come and go), but I have never considered going back to the Catholic Church. I was made to feel like I should be ashamed about myself for something I can't control, like I wasn't meant to be a part of society when there is really nothing wrong with me at all.

That sounds unfair, in your Catholic church I mean.

At the same time, I am very happy you found a church which welcomed you with open arms and they provided the help and acceptance you needed.

I hold no contempt against the Catholic Church. I still consider myself Catholic, just Anglo-Catholic and not Roman Catholic. I wish I could go back, as I feel like being Catholic is a part of my heritage (I'm from the UK, but my father is from France) I just don't feel like I'd ever be as welcomed as I was the first time I stepped into an Anglican parish.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

[...] coprolalia [...]

That's the term they chose for that? Because that's somewhat vulgar itself if you know what the Greek it's derived from means. (Copro- from 'κόπρος' (kopros) meaning 'faeces', and -lalia from 'λαλιά' (lalia), itself from 'lalein', meaning "to talk".)

TIL: Coprolalia = shit-talking

[Nordengrund]

I want to go on a quest to find the church God has for me, but I am also afraid.
I have done this before and always find myself returning to the denomination I grew up, not out of fear of condemnation, but because I am not satisfied with any of the other choices.

I am Protestant, and questioning Protestantism, yet I also could not be Catholic or Orthodox.

I want to give all groups an equal say, including Mormons and JWs in case they could be right, but it is very likely that such groups are not Christians and that I am codemning myself. I am also easily swayed.

[Luminesa]

I want to go on a quest to find the church God has for me, but I am also afraid.
I have done this before and always find myself returning to the denomination I grew up, not out of fear of condemnation, but because I am not satisfied with any of the other choices.

I am Protestant, and questioning Protestantism, yet I also could not be Catholic or Orthodox.

I want to give all groups an equal say, including Mormons and JWs in case they could be right, but it is very likely that such groups are not Christians and that I am codemning myself. I am also easily swayed.

Pray on it, and ask God to lead you where He wants you to go. He won't let you down. :3

[Nordengrund]

I want to go on a quest to find the church God has for me, but I am also afraid.
I have done this before and always find myself returning to the denomination I grew up, not out of fear of condemnation, but because I am not satisfied with any of the other choices.

I am Protestant, and questioning Protestantism, yet I also could not be Catholic or Orthodox.

I want to give all groups an equal say, including Mormons and JWs in case they could be right, but it is very likely that such groups are not Christians and that I am codemning myself. I am also easily swayed.

Pray on it, and ask God to lead you where He wants you to go. He won't let you down. :3

The thing is that we can both claim that we asked God to show us where He wants us to go. You may say He told you that the RCC is the right and true church while I may say that Protestantism is correct and that the truth God has showed me. Who is right? I think we get our own bias mixed in there. There are people who say God called them to Mormonism.

[Luminesa]

Pray on it, and ask God to lead you where He wants you to go. He won't let you down. :3

The thing is that we can both claim that we asked God to show us where He wants us to go. You may say He told you that the RCC is the right and true church while I may say that Protestantism is correct and that the truth God has showed me. Who is right? I think we get our own bias mixed in there. There are people who say God called them to Mormonism.

Well...ask God for wisdom. Read the Bible, read stuff about the Bible...the lives of the saints (that's what I read, growing up)...and yeah. Listen to the still small voice in your heart. You've been wandering around a while, but when God wants you to settle somewhere, He'll let you know. It'll be the peace you've been looking for.

[Constantinopolis]

Pray on it, and ask God to lead you where He wants you to go. He won't let you down. :3

The thing is that we can both claim that we asked God to show us where He wants us to go. You may say He told you that the RCC is the right and true church while I may say that Protestantism is correct and that the truth God has showed me. Who is right? I think we get our own bias mixed in there. There are people who say God called them to Mormonism.

Fair enough. Which is why I would not recommend relying on your feelings or intuitions.

I would say, study Christian history and theology and seek to find out which of the currently existing Churches is the continuation of the original Church, or closest to it.