Christian Discussion Thread VII: The Christ Awakens.

[Luminesa]

I'M A COMMANDEERING THIS TANK!!!!

*Drives off with the mobile cathedral.*

*Takes over the world.*

Since we're on the subject of mobile churches...

What about portable confessionals like the one from Trigun?

YOSH.

[Salus Maior]

So, I discovered the Latin hymn Dies Irae (well, I say discovered. But I've been listening to it for a while due to me listening to the animated Hunchback of Notre Dame soundtrack, but only recently have I actually known what it is). And it's probably the most metal Christian thing I've ever seen.

But then again, anything about the End Times is bound to be fairly metal.

But then again, again....Latin chants in general are probably pretty metal.

[Coulee Croche]

It is private until that person becomes Blessed then its local, and of course a Saint is the entire Church

Thats interesting, I wouldnt know of any in Catholicism, though I've only been keeping up with two people, Venerable Henriette DeLille and (St) Charlene Richard.

I know the founder of the Carthusians- forgot his actual name- was never formally canonized, as his order eschews canonization procedings for its members as a form of particularly extreme interior mortification, but is considered a saint nonetheless(the last saint without a canonization proceding, if I remember correctly).
I also know that Charlemagne and blessed Alan were never declared saints and kept at the blessed level for an extremely long time. In Charlemagne's case, this was likely begun out of concern with some aspects of his lifestyle and continued out of ecumenical concerns. In Blessed Alan's case, this appears to be a bureaucratic oversight.

Thats actually very interesting. Thank you!

[Constantinopolis]

From Father Joseph Ratzinger (before he became Pope) "Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of the primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millenium..." However the East must "cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium..."

Huh. I'm very surprised that he would say something like that, because there are massive problems with that statement - namely that it ignores the existence of Eastern Catholic Churches which derive from the Oriental Communion or the Church of the East, as opposed to the Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholics who came from the Orthodox Church.

It is plausible (I consider it false, but it's at least plausible) to claim that the Pope exercised primacy over the Byzantine Christians during the first millennium. But those were far from being the only Eastern Christians in the world. There were others located further to the east or south, and outside the borders of the Roman/Byzantine world. There was Armenia, and Ethiopia, and the Christians in Persia... and of course the St. Thomas Christians in India. The latter may not have even been aware that a bishop of Rome even existed. Rome certainly didn't know that Indian Christians existed, until the 16th century.

Today, the Syro-Malabar Church in southern India is the second largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world. But in the first millennium, there was no contact at all between Rome and the Syro-Malabar Christians, and each was completely unaware of what the other was doing.

These being the undisputed facts, I don't see how Benedict XVI can say that Rome is fine with maintaining the same level of primacy that it claims to have existed in the first millennium. Because, with regard to some of the Eastern Churches (the more geographically distant ones), everyone agrees that Rome exercised no primacy in the first millennium at all.

Whatever relationship the Byzantine Christians may or may not have had with Rome in the first millennium, there was definitely no relationship between the bishop of Rome and the bishops of Ernakulam, or Etchmiadzin, or Aksum.

Or with the Christians who carved this monument in China in the year 781. Granted, they were Nestorians, so they had broken away from the mainstream Christian Church (including Rome) anyway. But the point is that ancient Christianity traveled very far - to India, to China, to the sources of the Nile. The geographical distances involved were so vast that the idea of ancient Christianity having a single leader is simply absurd on its face. They couldn't have remained in contact with the Pope (or anyone else in the Mediterranean world) even if they had wanted to.

[Luminesa]

So, I discovered the Latin hymn Dies Irae (well, I say discovered. But I've been listening to it for a while due to me listening to the animated Hunchback of Notre Dame soundtrack, but only recently have I actually known what it is). And it's probably the most metal Christian thing I've ever seen.

But then again, anything about the End Times is bound to be fairly metal.

But then again, again....Latin chants in general are probably pretty metal.

Also mentioned in Gurren Lagann's "Libera Me From Hell". XD

[Constantinopolis]

[Salus Maior]

Apparently it's the feast day for the Nativity of the Virgin Mary. Woop woop ^_^

Side note: I think it'd be awesome if someone did the Catholic equivalent of what Const does for Orthodox Feast Days. I would, but I'm not Catholic and not too well learned in most Church traditions.

[Cill Airne]

Today is the the Feast of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary!

In honour of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary, I'd like to share a reading one of the Priests at my Parish read during his Sermon yesterday (in which we honoured the Virgin Mary on the Vigil of Her Nativity).

It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos,
Ever-blessed and most-pure and the mother of our God.
More honourable than the Cherubim,
And beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who without corruption gave birth to God the Word,
True Theotokos, we magnify you.

It was through the Blessed Joachim and Saint Anne that the Mother of Christ Jesus was born, though old in age they never lost faith that God would give them a child, like Sarah and Abraham. It is said they prayed for 20 years, enduring harsh taunting and ridicule for Anne's sterility. But this period was a time for purification through their devout prayer and lifestyle so they were worthy to continue the lineal descent of the Messiah. Finally, God sent the Archangel Gabriel was sent to them to announce the decree that they would bear a most blessed child, the Immaculate Conception would be born to her who, at the very moment she began life was already more pure and holy than the brightest of seraphim. To bear Jesus within our own hearts, we should strive for holiness as Mary, Anne and Joachim did to carry him within our own hearts.

A Prayer to Our Lady of Mercy from St. Augustine of Hippo
Blessed Virgin Mary,
who can worthily repay you with praise
and thanks for having rescued a fallen world
by your generous consent!
Receive our gratitude,
and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins.
Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven
and enable them to make our peace with God.

Holy Mary, help the miserable,
strengthen the discouraged,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for your people,
plead for the clergy,
intercede for all women consecrated to God.
May all who venerate you
feel now your help and protection.
Be ready to help us when we pray,
and bring back to us the answers to our prayers.
Make it your continual concern
to pray for the people of God,
for you were blessed by God
and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world,
who lives and reigns forever.
Amen.

[Cill Airne]

I feel bad. If I become a Christian again, I think in going to join the episcopal church. But I'm not sure about women's ordination. I'm not sure how to resolve this issue.

The Anglican Communion as a whole has a history of female ordination to the episcopate. The first female ordination was in the 1940's by the (then) Diocese of Hong Kong and South China. This was done in a response to the Japanese invasion which caused a shortage in priests - ordaining a woman was the last option, but necessary due to the need in more ordained clergy. She resigned her licence after the war. However, in the 1971 the the Synod of Hong Kong and Macao began to permit allowing female ordinations on the regular - ordaining two women and giving the same woman who had been ordained in the 1940's her licence once again. Just a few years later the Episcopal Church of the United States followed suit and ordained the Philadelphia Eleven and Washington Four (1974 and 1975 respectively) but these were irregular ordinations and weren't recognised by the National Convention until 1976. In 1977 the Episcopal Church of the United States had its first regular ordination of women. Since the 1970's more and more Provinces of the Anglican Communion have began to allow female ordination - only 4 do not (Central Africa, Melanesia, Papua New Guinea, and South East Asia), a 5th province is iffy. The Falkland Islands is extra-provincial to the Church of England - which does allow female ordination - but to date no women have been ordained to the clergy in the Falklands.

Now, the ultimate reason this was possible within Anglicanism is ultimately changes in the Church Law can, and have been, influenced by the laity. In 1976 the Episcopal Church of the United States gathered to vote on allowing female clergy - and laity, alongside clergy, voted. This is major when understanding the changes to Church Law in Anglicanism - we need to look at the 1970's and realise it was a time where more and more women were "fighting for equal rights", so it does not come as a shock they fought for it within their church. Ultimately, most Anglicans, myself included, will tell you the decision to allow female ordination will point you to Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Anglicanism has taken this to heart, and has interpreted it as a reason to fight for equality within our Churches. I hope this helped some.

All Bible Verses provided are from the Authorised Version translation.

[The Alexanderians]

(Image)

Remember that time Christians Bushido'd better then Japan?

[Shyubi Koku Naishifun]

(Image)

A lot of people don't know how big the Church of the East was and the scope of Christian influence in Asia back then. Christianity back then wasn't really a Europe thing, the influence of Christianity in Asia in some occasions in history is greater than in Europe. Things only declined when the Ming Dynasty persecuted Christians and Mongols became Muslim.

Here's the Lutheran one, resting close to the Polish border.

(Image)

It guarantees to bring the Slavic people closer to God.

fite me

I'd like to confirm what Angleter said. Churches typically do not canonise anyone who wasn't a member of the Church in question, because to canonise someone is to say "we are certain that this person is in Heaven", and no Church claims to be able to know with certainty which non-members are in Heaven.

So, martyrdom does not supersede the heresy of a person, or whether the person was in a different church in regards to canonization or the Orthodox canonization equivalents?

[Coulee Croche]

Since Cill posted the prayers, homily, and a picture, I will just post today's readings.

Mi. 5:1-4a
"The LORD says:
You, Bethlehem-Ephrathah,
too small to be among the clans of Judah,
From you shall come forth for me
one who is to be ruler in Israel;
Whose origin is from of old,
from ancient times.
(Therefore the Lord will give them up, until the time
when she who is to give birth has borne,
And the rest of his brethren shall return
to the children of Israel.)
He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock
by the strength of the LORD,
in the majestic name of the LORD, his God;
And they shall remain, for now his greatness
shall reach to the ends of the earth;
he shall be peace."
or
Rm. 8:28-30
"Brothers and sisters:
We know that all things work for good for those who love God,
who are called according to his purpose.
For those he foreknew he also predestined
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
so that he might be the firstborn
among many brothers.
And those he predestined he also called;
and those he called he also justified;
and those he justified he also glorified."

Ps. 13:6ab, 6c
R. (Isaiah 61:10) With delight I rejoice in the Lord.
Though I trusted in your mercy,
let my heart rejoice in your salvation.
R. With delight I rejoice in the Lord.
Let me sing of the LORD, "He has been good to me."
R. With delight I rejoice in the Lord.

Mt. 1:1-16
or Mt. 1:18-23
 "Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about.
When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph,
but before they lived together,
she was found with child through the Holy Spirit.
Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man,
yet unwilling to expose her to shame,
decided to divorce her quietly.
Such was his intention when, behold,
the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said,
"Joseph, son of David,
do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home.
For it is through the Holy Spirit
that this child has been conceived in her.
She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus,
because he will save his people from their sins."
All this took place to fulfill
what the Lord had said through the prophet:

Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel

which means "God is with us."

[Salus Maior]

Does anyone think that the clowns in South Carolina could be demons from hell?

Well, clowns in general are, yes.



But in all seriousness, no. It's clearly a publicity stunt for the remake of Stephan King's "It".

[Constantinopolis]

(Image)

Remember that time Christians Bushido'd better then Japan?

That time is now, my friend.

I'd like to confirm what Angleter said. Churches typically do not canonise anyone who wasn't a member of the Church in question, because to canonise someone is to say "we are certain that this person is in Heaven", and no Church claims to be able to know with certainty which non-members are in Heaven.

So, martyrdom does not supersede the heresy of a person, or whether the person was in a different church in regards to canonization or the Orthodox canonization equivalents?

Excellent question. Technically, martyrdom does supersede the heresy or schism of a person (schism = being in a different church). And, unofficially, many Orthodox do venerate martyrs who were members of heretical or schismatic groups (for example, the 21 Coptic martyrs of 2015 - here is their icon in Coptic style, by the way). But the Church does not officially canonise them.

(Image)

A lot of people don't know how big the Church of the East was and the scope of Christian influence in Asia back then. Christianity back then wasn't really a Europe thing, the influence of Christianity in Asia in some occasions in history is greater than in Europe. Things only declined when the Ming Dynasty persecuted Christians and Mongols became Muslim.

It's also worth comparing the years when Christianity reached various places in Asia or Africa vs. the years when it reached various places in Europe.

There were Christian bishops in China before there were Christian bishops in Denmark. As of the mid first millennium (5th - 6th - 7th centuries), Northern Europe was still completely pagan, but the Middle East was almost entirely Christian, and so was the Nile valley from Alexandria in Egypt all the way south to Ethiopia, and there were major Christian communities in India and Central Asia.

Before the Muslim conquests, the center of gravity of the Christian world was firmly located in the Middle East, not in Europe. Christianity has been a primarily Middle Eastern religion for approximately 1/4 to 1/3 of the time it has existed. And Christians used the Syriac language much more widely than Latin or Greek in this period. The Chinese Christian words for "God" and "Christ" in the 8th century were, respectively, "Allaha" and "Mshiha" - loanwords from Syriac.

Today is the the Feast of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary!

Since Cill posted the prayers, homily, and a picture, I will just post today's readings.

Oh snap, I'm falling behind, guys!

I was going to post about today's feast a while back, but then I got into other things and put it off. Now you've reminded me that I need to get it done.

[Luminesa]

Today is the the Feast of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary!
(Image)
In honour of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary, I'd like to share a reading one of the Priests at my Parish read during his Sermon yesterday (in which we honoured the Virgin Mary on the Vigil of Her Nativity).

It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos,
Ever-blessed and most-pure and the mother of our God.
More honourable than the Cherubim,
And beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who without corruption gave birth to God the Word,
True Theotokos, we magnify you.

It was through the Blessed Joachim and Saint Anne that the Mother of Christ Jesus was born, though old in age they never lost faith that God would give them a child, like Sarah and Abraham. It is said they prayed for 20 years, enduring harsh taunting and ridicule for Anne's sterility. But this period was a time for purification through their devout prayer and lifestyle so they were worthy to continue the lineal descent of the Messiah. Finally, God sent the Archangel Gabriel was sent to them to announce the decree that they would bear a most blessed child, the Immaculate Conception would be born to her who, at the very moment she began life was already more pure and holy than the brightest of seraphim. To bear Jesus within our own hearts, we should strive for holiness as Mary, Anne and Joachim did to carry him within our own hearts.

A Prayer to Our Lady of Mercy from St. Augustine of Hippo
Blessed Virgin Mary,
who can worthily repay you with praise
and thanks for having rescued a fallen world
by your generous consent!
Receive our gratitude,
and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins.
Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven
and enable them to make our peace with God.

Holy Mary, help the miserable,
strengthen the discouraged,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for your people,
plead for the clergy,
intercede for all women consecrated to God.
May all who venerate you
feel now your help and protection.
Be ready to help us when we pray,
and bring back to us the answers to our prayers.
Make it your continual concern
to pray for the people of God,
for you were blessed by God
and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world,
who lives and reigns forever.
Amen.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOM!!!

[The Princes of the Universe]

[Luminesa]

(Image)

OH MY GOSH I FORGOT THE CAKE.

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS CAKE.

[The Princes of the Universe]

(Image)

OH MY GOSH I FORGOT THE CAKE.
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS CAKE.

How could you forget Mama's cake?

[Salus Maior]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mary's feast day should be on Mother's day? or vice-versa? xP

[Luminesa]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mary's feast day should be on Mother's day? or vice-versa? xP

That would be sweet. ^^

[Luminesa]

OH MY GOSH I FORGOT THE CAKE.
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS CAKE.

How could you forget Mama's cake?

*Cries.*

[The Princes of the Universe]

How could you forget Mama's cake?

*Cries.*

Moumantai, Lumi-chan! Just sign the card and all will be fine.

[Reverend Norv]

I feel bad. If I become a Christian again, I think in going to join the episcopal church. But I'm not sure about women's ordination. I'm not sure how to resolve this issue.

The Anglican Communion as a whole has a history of female ordination to the episcopate. The first female ordination was in the 1940's by the (then) Diocese of Hong Kong and South China. This was done in a response to the Japanese invasion which caused a shortage in priests - ordaining a woman was the last option, but necessary due to the need in more ordained clergy. She resigned her licence after the war. However, in the 1971 the the Synod of Hong Kong and Macao began to permit allowing female ordinations on the regular - ordaining two women and giving the same woman who had been ordained in the 1940's her licence once again. Just a few years later the Episcopal Church of the United States followed suit and ordained the Philadelphia Eleven and Washington Four (1974 and 1975 respectively) but these were irregular ordinations and weren't recognised by the National Convention until 1976. In 1977 the Episcopal Church of the United States had its first regular ordination of women. Since the 1970's more and more Provinces of the Anglican Communion have began to allow female ordination - only 4 do not (Central Africa, Melanesia, Papua New Guinea, and South East Asia), a 5th province is iffy. The Falkland Islands is extra-provincial to the Church of England - which does allow female ordination - but to date no women have been ordained to the clergy in the Falklands.

Now, the ultimate reason this was possible within Anglicanism is ultimately changes in the Church Law can, and have been, influenced by the laity. In 1976 the Episcopal Church of the United States gathered to vote on allowing female clergy - and laity, alongside clergy, voted. This is major when understanding the changes to Church Law in Anglicanism - we need to look at the 1970's and realise it was a time where more and more women were "fighting for equal rights", so it does not come as a shock they fought for it within their church. Ultimately, most Anglicans, myself included, will tell you the decision to allow female ordination will point you to Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Anglicanism has taken this to heart, and has interpreted it as a reason to fight for equality within our Churches. I hope this helped some.

All Bible Verses provided are from the Authorised Version translation.

I am happy to see that, for all our differences on other issues regarding Anglicanism, we are of one mind on this point. I would point to exactly the same verse myself.

[Constantinopolis]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mary's feast day should be on Mother's day? or vice-versa? xP

That would be sweet. ^^

Well, "Mother's day" in the US is a 20th century invention that was literally started by retail companies in order to sell more stuff.

So yes, you should absolutely move it to September 8th! I believe the term for this sort of thing is "baptizing a pagan holiday".

[Constantinopolis]

Now, without further ado, here is my post to mark the first Orthodox Great Feast of the year! ...what do I mean, "first of the year", you ask? Well, the Orthodox Christian year technically begins on September 1st, as I mentioned last week, although this "Orthodox New Year" isn't really celebrated in any special way. So today's Great Feast, being on September 8th, is the first of the year. And that is very appropriate, since the event it celebrates was chronologically the first among all the events marked by Great Feasts.

The Nativity of the Theotokos
(the birth of the Holy Virgin Mary)



It is interesting that the first Great Feast of the year is the birth of the Theotokos (September 8th), and the last Great Feast is her death (August 15th). It makes sense that these two events should serve as the bookends or the frame within which everything else is contained. The story of our salvation begins with Mary's birth, continues with the Annunciation and with the birth of the Incarnate God in the person of Jesus Christ, goes on with the Baptism of Christ and His Earthly ministry, then culminates with the Passion, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and the Ascension of Christ. After that, the story winds down with the founding of the Church (Pentecost), and ends with the death of the Theotokos.

We go through this story every year. It's what the annual liturgical cycle of the Church is all about. Of course, the Great Feasts marking those wonderous events don't actually fall throughout the year in a neat chronological order. The Annunciation falls after Christmas, for example, and then we have the Great Feast of the Transfiguration, which marks an event in the Earthly life of Christ but falls in early August, after we've already celebrated His Resurrection and Ascension. So no, things don't conveniently line up in the Church year in precisely the same order as they happened. But the earliest event does happen to come first, and the last event in the story of salvation does happen to come last.

So what is this earliest event that we celebrate today? Well, it's pretty straightforward: Mary's birthday. Other events marked by Great Feasts have many deeper layers of meaning and can sometimes even be difficult to understand (such as the Transfiguration), but this one is exactly what it says on the box. A child named Miriam (Mary), who would later become the Mother of God, was born in Palestine some time in the final decades of the 1st century BC.

We know about her parents and about the circumstances of her birth from the extra-canonical ancient Christian text known as the Protoevangelium of James (the "Infancy Gospel" of James). This text is traditionally believed to have been written by St. James the Just, the first bishop of Jerusalem, who was the stepbrother of Christ and thus also Mary's stepson (he was biologically the son of St. Joseph from a previous marriage). Whether St. James the Just actually wrote the Protoevangelium, or whether it was written by someone else named James, is a matter of dispute. In any case, the text was not included in any version of the New Testament canon and is not believed to be divinely inspired, but it was considered by many Church Fathers (and by the Orthodox Church as a whole) to be a generally good and useful account of the events it describes.

Mary's parents were Joachim and Anna, an elderly childless couple who were both extremely sad and distressed by the fact that they had never been able to conceive a child. They both prayed fervently to God to grant them a child. Joachim went to the Temple to make sacrifices, and after being told by the high priest that he wasn't welcome there, he was greatly troubled and went into the desert with his tent to spend 40 days in fasting and prayer. Anna, having stayed behind at their home, believed Joachim to be dead since he had not returned, and lamented that she was now a widow in addition to being barren (historical note: Anna's lament, as written down in the Protoevangelium of James, is notable as a major work of poetry from this period).

Eventually, an angel appeared to Anna and said, “Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer; you will conceive and bring forth, and your progeny shall be spoken of in all the world.” And Anna answered, “As the Lord my God lives, whatever I bring forth, whether it be male or female, I will devote it to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in holy things, during its whole life.”

An angel also appeared to Joachim and told him that his prayer was heard and that he should return home. Anna met him at the gate of their home and they hugged (literally, the text says: “Anna stood by the gate and saw Joachim coming with the shepherds. And she ran, and hanging about his neck, said, "Now I know that the Lord has greatly blessed me: For behold, I who was a widow am no longer a widow, and I who was barren shall conceive." ”). This encounter is frequently depicted in iconography.

“And when nine months were fulfilled to Anna, she brought forth, and said to the midwife, "What have I brought forth?" And she told her, "A girl." Then Anna said, "the Lord has this day magnified my soul"; and she laid her in bed.”

As is customary when I post to mark a Great Feast, here are some hymns for the occasion on YouTube:
Exapostilarion for the Nativity of the Theotokos (in English)
Troparion for the Nativity of the Theotokos (in French)
Odes 1 and 9 from the Canon for the Nativity of the Theotokos (in Greek)
A clip from a Divine Liturgy for the Nativity of the Theotokos (in English; the video just seems to show the choir)

Troparion:

Your Nativity, O Virgin,
Has proclaimed joy to the whole universe!
The Sun of Righteousness, Christ our God,
Has shone from You, O Theotokos!
By annulling the curse,
He bestowed a blessing.
By destroying death, He has granted us eternal Life.

Kontakion:

By Your Nativity, O Most Pure Virgin,
Joachim and Anna are freed from barrenness;
Adam and Eve, from the corruption of death.
And we, your people, freed from the guilt of sin, celebrate and sing to you:
The barren woman gives birth to the Theotokos, the nourisher of our life!

And finally, although it's not related to the feast of her nativity in particular, here are two beautiful performances of the hymn Axion Estin ("It is truly meet" or "It is truly right"), one in English and one in Greek:

In English, by the choir of St. John of San Francisco Monastery
In Greek, by Divna Ljubojević

It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos,
Ever-blessed and most-pure and the mother of our God.
More honourable than the Cherubim,
And beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who without corruption gave birth to God the Word,
True Theotokos, we magnify you.