Falkland Islands' Sovereignty Threatened?

[Risottia]

I wasn't the one who moved it onto the topic but I will argue for it. And you really can't steal something that's rightfully yours. Anywho back to the Argies and Brits. I say you split the islands 50/50 so each side gets something.

Because what the Islanders want is irrelevant.

I don't see why natives should be given a chance about by whom to be ruled after all. Just like with populations which happened to live in Argentina before the arrival of European colonists!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But does it though?

In my opinion, as far as I can tell, the people want to be subjects of the UK, but the lands apparently are either disputed territory or they belong to neither side (which would be the better alternative) and the people of the Falklands are choosing on their own accord to be part of the UK because their interests lie with being part of a superpower.

Which in my opinion would be more accurate than this dick-waving contest about whose land is it.

The UN documents I have seen throughout the course of this thread consistently refer to the islands as being British territory, as for the islanders the reason they want to remain a part of the United Kingdom is more cultural than political (though I am sure the MOD bases help them sleep much better at night). They are culturally almost entirely British.

Then I suppose they are British territory.

And well, it's what I was referring to when I said "even if Argentinians were living on the Islands they probably would prefer British rule than Argentinian", because honestly, the UK has the resources to provide adequate defense in the atlantic(?). And with a stronger economy than Argentina, many people would vote to be under British rule.

This is basically like saying we're going to throw a referendum at, say, El Salvador, to either remain sovereign or be part of the United States. I am sure many people would be nationalists and would want to remain independent, but there's also going to be a lot of people wanting to be part of the United States' economic and political clout because the US is, overall, perceived as the better option of the two.

Not denying culture is a factor in the Falklands referendum, but in practical terms, what is there that Argentina can give the people in the Falklands that they already don't have under British rule?

[Allet Klar Chefs]

The natives you're talking about in Canada are already Canadian, which is as a result of colonialism and the aforementioned seizure of unclaimed territory many generations ago.

That's disputed in different ways by both parties.

They do not have the same de facto rights as most Canadians and are viewed with serious hostility by the civil service, especially when it comes to child services. You would be unlikely to see vast tracts of land in settled areas turned over to mining or oil extraction companies. You certainly wouldn't see protests broken up the same way.

Most First Nations also do not identify first as Canadians, because they have their own territories that were agreed at least notionally with the Crown (which is why a lot of the time the Crown still gets petitioned over the local government).

[Mesoland]

The natives you're talking about in Canada are already Canadian, which is as a result of colonialism and the aforementioned seizure of unclaimed territory many generations ago.

That's disputed in different ways by both parties.

They do not have the same de facto rights as most Canadians and are viewed with serious hostility by the civil service, especially when it comes to child services. You would be unlikely to see vast tracts of land in settled areas turned over to mining or oil extraction companies. You certainly wouldn't see protests broken up the same way.

Most First Nations also do not identify first as Canadians, because they have their own territories that were agreed at least notionally with the Crown (which is why a lot of the time the Crown still gets petitioned over the local government).

It's totally fucked up, I completely agree with you 100%. But their persecution and the way they're treated doesn't change the fact that, technically, they're Canadians and live on Canadian soil. It's a sad fact that their own territories are considered as Canadian and are simply not recognised by those outside of the First Nations community. It's the same with natives in Australia and the US, which is a shame, but the course of history has caused this to happen.

[Lady Scylla]

They wouldn't even accept the Argentine dead when the British offered to ship them to Argentina.

That's because they were... umm... soiled by the evil imperialist hands... yeah... that must be it... showing that Britain cares more for dead Argentine soldiers than the Argentine government has totally nothing to do with that at all.

Oh and HMS Conqueror was totally offside! Shame on the ref!

Despite the war, the British were very respectful with their dead. Argentina refused because they died on "Argentine soil". Britain could've tossed them in the ocean, or cremated them and then air-dropped the remains over Argentina. Instead, they built them a rather nice cemetery.

[Old Stephania]

The UN documents I have seen throughout the course of this thread consistently refer to the islands as being British territory, as for the islanders the reason they want to remain a part of the United Kingdom is more cultural than political (though I am sure the MOD bases help them sleep much better at night). They are culturally almost entirely British.

Then I suppose they are British territory.

And well, it's what I was referring to when I said "even if Argentinians were living on the Islands they probably would prefer British rule than Argentinian", because honestly, the UK has the resources to provide adequate defense in the pacific. And with a stronger economy than Argentina, many people would vote to be under British rule.

This is basically like saying we're going to throw a referendum at, say, El Salvador, to either remain sovereign or be part of the United States. I am sure many people would be nationalists and would want to remain independent, but there's also going to be a lot of people wanting to be part of the United States' economic and political clout because the US is, overall, perceived as the better option of the two.

A referendum was actually held quite recently in the Falklands to give them the choice directly, 99.80% of the inhabitants voted in favour of staying with the United Kingdom. Argentina of course declared the referendum illegal or invalid, or some such nonsense, as Calimera II keeps claiming in this thread.

I hate to nit-pick but it's also worth noting the Falklands are in the Atlantic ocean, not the Pacific.

[Ifreann]

So. Basically you're being hypocritical. A self-determination referendum done by the British living on the Falklands is irrelevant, but the Argentine are clear of fault because they didn't choose.

1) Self-determination does not apply to the British citizens living on Argentine soil.

Why not? Never mind telling us what the law says, or who had first dibs on the islands, why do you think that those people should not have that right? If the people of Formosa, for whatever reason, wanted to leave Argentina, do you think that should be allowed?

[Cymrea]

A referendum was actually held quite recently in the Falklands to give them the choice directly, 99.80% of the inhabitants voted in favour of staying with the United Kingdom. Argentina of course declared the referendum illegal or invalid, or some such nonsense, as Calimera II keeps claiming in this thread.

I hate to nit-pick but it's also worth noting the Falklands are in the Atlantic ocean, not the Pacific.

The referendum results are "invalid" because they chose to remain British. Had they chosen to be Argentine, Argentina would be loudly declaring how their self-determination must be respected.

[Old Stephania]

A referendum was actually held quite recently in the Falklands to give them the choice directly, 99.80% of the inhabitants voted in favour of staying with the United Kingdom. Argentina of course declared the referendum illegal or invalid, or some such nonsense, as Calimera II keeps claiming in this thread.

I hate to nit-pick but it's also worth noting the Falklands are in the Atlantic ocean, not the Pacific.

The referendum results are "invalid" because they chose to remain British. Had they chosen to be Argentine, Argentina would be loudly declaring how their self-determination must be respected.

Undoubtedly.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Then I suppose they are British territory.

And well, it's what I was referring to when I said "even if Argentinians were living on the Islands they probably would prefer British rule than Argentinian", because honestly, the UK has the resources to provide adequate defense in the pacific. And with a stronger economy than Argentina, many people would vote to be under British rule.

This is basically like saying we're going to throw a referendum at, say, El Salvador, to either remain sovereign or be part of the United States. I am sure many people would be nationalists and would want to remain independent, but there's also going to be a lot of people wanting to be part of the United States' economic and political clout because the US is, overall, perceived as the better option of the two.

A referendum was actually held quite recently in the Falklands to give them the choice directly, 99.80% of the inhabitants voted in favour of staying with the United Kingdom. Argentina of course declared the referendum illegal or invalid, or some such nonsense, as Calimera II keeps claiming in this thread.

I hate to nit-pick but it's also worth noting the Falklands are in the Atlantic ocean, not the Pacific.

I edited my post to reflect that

Also, indeed. I think that if we ask the people of the Falklands their opinion on why they voted the way they voted I think they'll reflect what I also said at the end of my edit:

[
Not denying culture is a factor in the Falklands referendum, but in practical terms, what is there that Argentina can give the people in the Falklands that they already don't have under British rule?

Argentina doesn't have the same economy, doesn't have the same resource abilities, it doesn't even have a government that reflects their interests or a populace that really wants them or that treats them as equals. So why should they, under those considerations, defect from UK rule?

Not to undermine your point about culture, but it makes sense in a practical lens why the Falklands population voted the way they voted.

[Ifreann]

The Roman Empire no longer exists the Irish do exist. So it makes no sense what you're saying.

Romans do still exist while the various kingdoms of Ireland do not exist anymore. So it makes no sense what you're saying.

#FreedomForCork #PeoplesRepublicOfCork

[Fluvique]

If by 'sovereignty' you mean 'colonial rule', I say yes. Las Malvinas son Argentinas!

[Paredonia]

If by 'sovereignty' you mean 'colonial rule', I say yes. Las Malvinas son Argentinas!

All countries in North and South America are technically "colonial rule" since they were created by kicking natives out of their homes and land. Are those countries illegal too?

[Mesoland]

If by 'sovereignty' you mean 'colonial rule', I say yes. Las Malvinas son Argentinas!

Correct, Argentina are colonialists who threaten the sovereignty of the Falklands. And English, dear? Not sure what you're saying but I'm sure it's very nice.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If by 'sovereignty' you mean 'colonial rule', I say yes. Las Malvinas son Argentinas!

All countries in North and South America are technically "colonial rule" since they were created by kicking natives out of their homes and land. Are those countries illegal too?

Yes.

[Old Stephania]

Argentina doesn't have the same economy, doesn't have the same resource abilities, it doesn't even have a government that reflects their interests or a populace that really wants them or that treats them as equals. So why should they, under those considerations, defect from UK rule?

Not to undermine your point, but really, it makes sense in a practical lens why the Falklands population voted the way they voted.

Very true, also the Islanders are concerned that Argentina wants to simply cash in on all the oil recently discovered there without allowing them to prosper from it, whereas in a shocking display of good will the British government told the Islanders they could do with it as they wish. In response I recall the Islanders offering Britain a share of it but I can not find a source.

[United Kingdom of Kent]

"Though much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

Lord Tennyson

Pretty good quote to sum up the British position as far as the defence of the will of the people of the islanders goes. (Sums modern Britain up pretty nicely in my view too.)

[The Free Rational City of Rapture]

All countries in North and South America are technically "colonial rule" since they were created by kicking natives out of their homes and land. Are those countries illegal too?

Yes.

Nearly every country in the world is illegal if we apply this thinking.

[Cymrea]

Argentina doesn't have the same economy, doesn't have the same resource abilities, it doesn't even have a government that reflects their interests or a populace that really wants them or that treats them as equals. So why should they, under those considerations, defect from UK rule?

Not to undermine your point, but really, it makes sense in a practical lens why the Falklands population voted the way they voted.

Very true, also the Islanders are concerned that Argentina wants to simply cash in on all the oil recently discovered there without allowing them to prosper from it, whereas in a shocking display of good will the British government told the Islanders they could do with it as they wish. In response I recall the Islanders offering Britain a share of it but I can not find a source.

A valid concern given that Argentina has repeatedly demonstrated that they care nothing for the people of Falklands or their political voice.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yes.

Nearly every country in the world is illegal if we apply this thinking.

Which is why it isn't applied by anyone

[Fluvique]

If by 'sovereignty' you mean 'colonial rule', I say yes. Las Malvinas son Argentinas!

All countries in North and South America are technically "colonial rule" since they were created by kicking natives out of their homes and land. Are those countries illegal too?

Practically a genocide since 1492

[Old Stephania]

Yes.

Nearly every country in the world is illegal if we apply this thinking.

I would be screwed in this situation. My ancestors conquered England, but I can't go back to France because Normandy was conquered by Rollo. We don't even know if Rollo was a Norwegian or a Dane.

[Dooom35796821595]

Yes.

Nearly every country in the world is illegal if we apply this thinking.

Indeed. Clearly the world should be divided into three, Asia becomes the Chinese federation, Europe becomes the European Union and the Americas become the Brittanian Empire. Futher territorial gains shall be decided by mecha combat.

[Ashworth-Attwater]

Yay! Go Argentina!

[Ifreann]

Nearly every country in the world is illegal if we apply this thinking.

I would be screwed in this situation. My ancestors conquered England, but I can't go back to France because Normandy was conquered by Rollo. We don't even know if Rollo was a Norwegian or a Dane.

The only solution is for humanity to leave Earth and live in space. Only then will all lands be as they were before they were conquered.