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North Carolina Passes "Anti-LGBT" Bill

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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bill?

yeh
217
29%
neh
431
58%
weh?
42
6%
eh
52
7%
 
Total votes : 742

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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Tue May 17, 2016 7:25 am

The Rich Port wrote:
New Owca wrote:
Grand. That can be worked with. I understand better now.


You seem to have a problem with basically conceptualizing it, let alone understanding the psychology behind it...


Considering most people's gender identity matches what is assigned at birth that is hardly a surprise.
New Owca wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
You seem to have a problem with basically conceptualizing it, let alone understanding the psychology behind it...


Please don't mess my head up even more...


The human mind can e a difficult thing to understand. As far as we can tell it is a product of the brain. That includes how one views oneself. Think about it like this take you, your personality how you view yourself take all of that exactly as you are right now, and then imagine that instead of your current body you had a body that was the opposite sex. If you are male the current you instead has the body of a female. That is what many trans people are going through.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Tue May 17, 2016 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue May 17, 2016 2:09 pm

Olthar wrote:
Boineburg wrote:And no matter if transsexuals are allowed in the wrong bathroom or not, there will be people who will be uncomfortable with obvious members of the opposite sex sharing the same bathroom as them. This is unavoidable.

It would literally only take one generation of kids growing up with unisex bathrooms to completely eliminate such feelings. Then it would just be the old people talking nostalgically about segregation. Just like how people today aren't uncomfortable sharing a classroom with members of another race.


My local leisure centre has had unisex toilets and changing rooms since 2004. Nobody has objected in any way, so far as I can tell.
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

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Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue May 17, 2016 2:21 pm

Philjia wrote:
New Owca wrote:
"Trans*"? What's the start for?


To represent the encompassment of all gender nonconformist individuals. I personally think it's a bit of a pretentious affection and "trans" on it's own is fine, but I can't pretend to speak for the trans community.


As a trans person, I agree, and I know of a lot of others in the community who also agree.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue May 17, 2016 2:25 pm

New Owca wrote:
Philjia wrote:
Regardless, there are different identities other than male and female; there's androgynous, genderfluid, and genderqueer, for example, all of which fall between male and female but in different ways, and a lot of people will lean more towards male or female.


Gah! You hear me, man? Gah!
1. Androgenous refers to having a mix of both male and female qualities. It is NOT a sexual identity in and of itself!

2. But before we get into Genderqueer and Genderfluid, one has to ask, what makes one "masculine" or "feminine" other than what lies between their legs? This is something which has never been explained adequately to me and I genuinely hope you can explain it.

3. For example, I am biologically male. However, I have a rather "feminine" face and have often been called girly in terms of my interests. So what does that make me? I am happy with being male, I'm not uncomfortable in my own skin. I just happen to look, act and sound quite girlish.


1. Your second sentence contradicts the first. Also, its spelled "Androgynous".

2. Gender identity.

3. You are a man, then. Specifically because of the underlined.
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New Owca
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Postby New Owca » Wed May 18, 2016 1:12 am

Neutraligon wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
You seem to have a problem with basically conceptualizing it, let alone understanding the psychology behind it...


Considering most people's gender identity matches what is assigned at birth that is hardly a surprise.
New Owca wrote:
Please don't mess my head up even more...


The human mind can e a difficult thing to understand. As far as we can tell it is a product of the brain. That includes how one views oneself. Think about it like this take you, your personality how you view yourself take all of that exactly as you are right now, and then imagine that instead of your current body you had a body that was the opposite sex. If you are male the current you instead has the body of a female. That is what many trans people are going through.


Ah, okay. That makes sense. So it's kinda like your body is geared towards having one set of genitals when it has the opposite?
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New Owca
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Postby New Owca » Wed May 18, 2016 1:13 am

Grenartia wrote:
New Owca wrote:
Gah! You hear me, man? Gah!
1. Androgenous refers to having a mix of both male and female qualities. It is NOT a sexual identity in and of itself!

2. But before we get into Genderqueer and Genderfluid, one has to ask, what makes one "masculine" or "feminine" other than what lies between their legs? This is something which has never been explained adequately to me and I genuinely hope you can explain it.

3. For example, I am biologically male. However, I have a rather "feminine" face and have often been called girly in terms of my interests. So what does that make me? I am happy with being male, I'm not uncomfortable in my own skin. I just happen to look, act and sound quite girlish.


1. Your second sentence contradicts the first. Also, its spelled "Androgynous".

2. Gender identity.

3. You are a man, then. Specifically because of the underlined.


And what IS gender identity? People keep saying that and I have no idea what it means!
We don't use NS stats.

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The V O I D
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Postby The V O I D » Wed May 18, 2016 3:02 am

New Owca wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
1. Your second sentence contradicts the first. Also, its spelled "Androgynous".

2. Gender identity.

3. You are a man, then. Specifically because of the underlined.


And what IS gender identity? People keep saying that and I have no idea what it means!


Here's a definition:
One's innermost concept of self as male or female or both or neither—how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different than the sex assigned at birth.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Wed May 18, 2016 3:16 am

The V O I D wrote:
New Owca wrote:
And what IS gender identity? People keep saying that and I have no idea what it means!


Here's a definition:
One's innermost concept of self as male or female or both or neither—how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different than the sex assigned at birth.


Accurate.
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New Owca
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Founded: May 14, 2016
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Postby New Owca » Wed May 18, 2016 3:24 am

The V O I D wrote:
New Owca wrote:
And what IS gender identity? People keep saying that and I have no idea what it means!


Here's a definition:
One's innermost concept of self as male or female or both or neither—how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different than the sex assigned at birth.


Okay, but if that's an innermost concept of self, one can visualise anything as a gender really. I could call myself a Smeerp and claim it's a gender identity.
What exactly makes it so one has a male or female gender identity?
We don't use NS stats.

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Quokkastan
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Founded: Dec 21, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Quokkastan » Wed May 18, 2016 4:16 am

New Owca wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
Here's a definition:
One's innermost concept of self as male or female or both or neither—how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different than the sex assigned at birth.


Okay, but if that's an innermost concept of self, one can visualise anything as a gender really. I could call myself a Smeerp and claim it's a gender identity.
What exactly makes it so one has a male or female gender identity?

You absolutely can. Enjoy having every single person you meet ask you to explain what you mean by that.

There's nothing particularly complicated about this. If you feel it is so, then it is so.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed May 18, 2016 7:51 am

New Owca wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
Here's a definition:
One's innermost concept of self as male or female or both or neither—how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different than the sex assigned at birth.

Okay, but if that's an innermost concept of self, one can visualise anything as a gender really. I could call myself a Smeerp and claim it's a gender identity.

Except that wouldn't be your innermost concept of your gender. You would know that you're just lol-ing around to prove a point. Of course, there are plenty of people who identify as a gender outside of the traditional binary, but people do not seriously go around making up genders.
What exactly makes it so one has a male or female gender identity?

Do you consider yourself a man or a woman?
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Boineburg
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Postby Boineburg » Wed May 18, 2016 3:04 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Boineburg wrote:


1. It will be more expensive to close and refurbish existing divisions that it will be to simply leave them as they are.

2. And no matter if transsexuals are allowed in the wrong bathroom or not, 3. there will be people who will be uncomfortable with obvious members of the opposite sex sharing the same bathroom as them. 4. This is unavoidable.


1. Not necessarily. All it would really require is a change of signage.

2. By wrong bathroom, you mean the one NC requires we use.

3. Riddle me this: Why should their comfort come at the cost of our safety?

4. Perhaps they need their own restroom? ;)


1. In reality, it's not that simple.

2. NC doesn't require anyone outside NC to do anything.

3. Are you for or against making bathrooms unisex? Make up your mind!

4. above
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Wed May 18, 2016 3:53 pm

New Owca wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
Considering most people's gender identity matches what is assigned at birth that is hardly a surprise.


The human mind can e a difficult thing to understand. As far as we can tell it is a product of the brain. That includes how one views oneself. Think about it like this take you, your personality how you view yourself take all of that exactly as you are right now, and then imagine that instead of your current body you had a body that was the opposite sex. If you are male the current you instead has the body of a female. That is what many trans people are going through.


Ah, okay. That makes sense. So it's kinda like your body is geared towards having one set of genitals when it has the opposite?


There are things other then genitalia that are included, though I wonder how much of that is gender presentation rather than gender. Used to be women could only where skirts, not pants. Now women can wear pants, although the kind of pants they wear looks different from the kind most men wear. men are still not really allowed to wear dresses. Certain traits tend to be seen as typically feminine, and when men have them they tend to be looked down upon. Thing is all these are gender presentation rather than gender in and of themselves. That is where it gets really confusing, since gender, and gender expression, and societal gender expectations tend to get really mixed up in this matter.

If society had no gender expectations, did not say any particular trait was typically masculine or feminine, if clothing was not boys and girls clothes, would a large group of those who are currently trans say they are trans? More often then not I see trans as an issue of the mind (how one views oneself) and the body not matching, but some who say they are trans focus a lot on gender presentation rather than on their own body.
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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Wed May 18, 2016 4:42 pm

Neutraligon wrote:There are things other then genitalia that are included, though I wonder how much of that is gender presentation rather than gender. Used to be women could only where skirts, not pants. Now women can wear pants, although the kind of pants they wear looks different from the kind most men wear. men are still not really allowed to wear dresses. Certain traits tend to be seen as typically feminine, and when men have them they tend to be looked down upon. Thing is all these are gender presentation rather than gender in and of themselves. That is where it gets really confusing, since gender, and gender expression, and societal gender expectations tend to get really mixed up in this matter.

If society had no gender expectations, did not say any particular trait was typically masculine or feminine, if clothing was not boys and girls clothes, would a large group of those who are currently trans say they are trans? More often then not I see trans as an issue of the mind (how one views oneself) and the body not matching, but some who say they are trans focus a lot on gender presentation rather than on their own body.


I don't think that is the case, at least not as far as medical factors are concerned. The diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria in medical science primarily focuses on the physical aspects of the body, although recognition to the psychological aspects, such as experience of one's gender, or how one does or wishes to present themselves, is definitely also taken into account. Plus gender identity, and gender expression, exist independently of each other, so there is not necessarily any connection between the two medically, or from what I have seen with identification of transgender individuals, or the experience of their gender identity. It is not common, in my experience, for the basis of transgender identity to be based upon socio-normatie bahavior. :)

The qualifiers of Gender Dysphoria (APA DSM-V 302.85) summarized (multiple qualifiers must be met for a consistency of at least 6 months):
    "
  • incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
  • strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
  • strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
  • strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative form one's assigned gender)
  • strong desire to be treated as the other gender
  • strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender" [this one serves as an indicator to internalized factors to my understanding]


A lot of issues with the body, in my experience, may come from the fact that transgender individuals have twice-fold the social pressures about appearance than normal people. The first comes from the fact that, in order for them to be able to fully live as their desired gender they typically have to 'look feminine/masculine enough' to others, so that they are seen as their desired gender. For this gender presentation is highly important, and how people present themselves can mean the difference between being seen as one gender or the other, so yes, it is important. The second aspect is then, of course, that they have all of society's expectations of how a man/woman should ideally look placed on them, and this can cause them to judge themselves on this as well. Many individuals may do everything possible to promote the image of themselves being their desired gender, to maximise their ability to 'pass', or be seen as a member of their gender.

I think a lot of the reason gender expression can be a big thing, especially for transgender individuals, is that they've been made to conform to a certain societal standard for so long, which has ensured their being identified as the wrong gender, and which subsequently can be associated with discomforting experiences and feelings. Thus, being able to wear a skirt, for example, is not only practical for transitioning, but also serves as a validation to this individual that they are indeed able to live according to the gender they identify. As a result presenting in a manner which they were not able to before, and being able to be recognized as the right gender, definitely can be a big reason for this.

Another factor can be depending on the country. There is, in many countries, a practice called 'gate-keeping', which requires, in order to receive even basic treatment for transition, that an individual have independent (non-familial) witnesses attest to their adherence to socio-normative behaviors for extended periods of time, of the gender they identify with. In this way, sometimes, in certain countries (including in parts of the developed world), the medical pressures can cause people to present themselves in a certain way, so they can get treatment. In addition to this, outside of the medical field, the individuals that are in a person's family, friends, society, et cetera, may expect or pressure a man or woman to present and behave in a certain way or look, and transgender men and women are no exception to this, nor are they immune to social pressures.

Another, and in my opinion the most likely, factor is just the natural spectrum which exists, in so far as social norms typically is concerned. While certainly some transgender women, like women in general, fall easily into the traditional social 'feminine', others are more 'masculine', and most are everything in between. The same is true with transgender men, as is the case with all men.

If social norms, in clothing and behavior, were to be eliminated, I have not seen anything to suggest that the instance of transgender individuals, or transitioning, would decrease. In fact, I think it would help transgender people even more, because it would eliminate certain concerns they may have about their appearance, and would reduce certain pressures. With that state of society, the importance of gender expression among transgender individuals would greatly diminish, since it would not be associated with being able to present as the gender they identify with, and being able to live their life as who they are. It would also end the abhorrent and damaging practice of gate-keeping.

Of course, this is only my experience and observations. I make no claim that my claims are the absolute truth, only that they may serve as explanation based upon what I've seen.
Last edited by Noraika on Wed May 18, 2016 4:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Wed May 18, 2016 4:50 pm

New Owca wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
Here's a definition:
One's innermost concept of self as male or female or both or neither—how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different than the sex assigned at birth.


Okay, but if that's an innermost concept of self, one can visualise anything as a gender really. I could call myself a Smeerp and claim it's a gender identity.
What exactly makes it so one has a male or female gender identity?


Honestly, I feel that its only valid as a gender if it can be explained purely in relation to the binary. I say this reluctantly, but those are our points of reference for gender. Even if you explain it in terms of more well-known non-binary identities, you're still explaining it in terms of the binary, just indirectly.
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Northern Freikur
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Postby Northern Freikur » Wed May 18, 2016 4:51 pm

I'm an American (although, I'm getting farther and farther from being proud of it), and I have completely lost faith in our public schooling. This shouldn't even be a debate. The Men's room is for those with "outdoor plumbing", the Women's room is for those with "Indoor Plumbing".

If I ever decide to have children, far be it from me to send them to public school here in America, the quality of education sucks, bathroom signs no longer matter, and they've all got a leftist bias (or at least they do in California). I'd either opt for online (which is my first choice), or just move out.

I also encourage any parents out there to do the same.
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Northern Freikur
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Postby Northern Freikur » Wed May 18, 2016 4:53 pm

Grenartia wrote:
New Owca wrote:
Okay, but if that's an innermost concept of self, one can visualise anything as a gender really. I could call myself a Smeerp and claim it's a gender identity.
What exactly makes it so one has a male or female gender identity?


Honestly, I feel that its only valid as a gender if it can be explained purely in relation to the binary. I say this reluctantly, but those are our points of reference for gender. Even if you explain it in terms of more well-known non-binary identities, you're still explaining it in terms of the binary, just indirectly.


What if one wants to identify as both? Would you take away their ability to do so?

Take this as far as identifying as an attack helicopter. It suddenly becomes ridiculous.

Locker rooms should be separated by Biological gender.
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The V O I D
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Postby The V O I D » Wed May 18, 2016 4:54 pm

Northern Freikur wrote:I'm an American (although, I'm getting farther and farther from being proud of it), and I have completely lost faith in our public schooling. This shouldn't even be a debate. The Men's room is for those with "outdoor plumbing", the Women's room is for those with "Indoor Plumbing".

If I ever decide to have children, far be it from me to send them to public school here in America, the quality of education sucks, bathroom signs no longer matter, and they've all got a leftist bias (or at least they do in California). I'd either opt for online (which is my first choice), or just move out.

I also encourage any parents out there to do the same.


Not how it works. A woman is a woman when she identifies as such. A man is a man when he identifies as such. The transition surgery isn't always perfect or done well, not everyone can afford it, and sometimes changing birth records takes a long time. So, bathroom signs shouldn't matter; we should have unisex bathrooms, but if we're going to keep it segregated, let people who identify as women use the correct bathroom - the women's room - and let people who identify as men do the same.

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Postby The V O I D » Wed May 18, 2016 4:55 pm

Northern Freikur wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Honestly, I feel that its only valid as a gender if it can be explained purely in relation to the binary. I say this reluctantly, but those are our points of reference for gender. Even if you explain it in terms of more well-known non-binary identities, you're still explaining it in terms of the binary, just indirectly.


What if one wants to identify as both? Would you take away their ability to do so?

Take this as far as identifying as an attack helicopter. It suddenly becomes ridiculous.

Locker rooms should be separated by Biological gender.


Gender and Sex are not the same thing. Gender is what roles each sex serve, as well as what one identifies as. Sex is your biological parts.

Also, you can identify as both or neither - those relate to the two binaries.

Identifying as an attack helicopter isn't even remotely realistic, and is actually offensive.

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Postby Des-Bal » Wed May 18, 2016 4:55 pm

The V O I D wrote:Not how it works. A woman is a woman when she identifies as such. A man is a man when he identifies as such. The transition surgery isn't always perfect or done well, not everyone can afford it, and sometimes changing birth records takes a long time. So, bathroom signs shouldn't matter; we should have unisex bathrooms, but if we're going to keep it segregated, let people who identify as women use the correct bathroom - the women's room - and let people who identify as men do the same.

How exactly is that a more worthy metric?
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The V O I D
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Postby The V O I D » Wed May 18, 2016 4:56 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
The V O I D wrote:Not how it works. A woman is a woman when she identifies as such. A man is a man when he identifies as such. The transition surgery isn't always perfect or done well, not everyone can afford it, and sometimes changing birth records takes a long time. So, bathroom signs shouldn't matter; we should have unisex bathrooms, but if we're going to keep it segregated, let people who identify as women use the correct bathroom - the women's room - and let people who identify as men do the same.

How exactly is that a more worthy metric?


Pardon? What do you mean by that?

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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Wed May 18, 2016 4:57 pm

Northern Freikur wrote:I'm an American (although, I'm getting farther and farther from being proud of it), and I have completely lost faith in our public schooling. This shouldn't even be a debate. The Men's room is for those with "outdoor plumbing", the Women's room is for those with "Indoor Plumbing".

You know, usually, when I'm going to go and come to a conclusion on a topic, I prefer to do research and get information from accredited, well-respected institutions of professionals in their field, which have studied the topic in great detail through numerous studies, and have a broad consensus on the matter. But since you say that this is the case, I guess I just need to take your word for it, eh? :bow:
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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40984
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Wed May 18, 2016 4:57 pm

Boineburg wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
1. Not necessarily. All it would really require is a change of signage.

2. By wrong bathroom, you mean the one NC requires we use.

3. Riddle me this: Why should their comfort come at the cost of our safety?

4. Perhaps they need their own restroom? ;)


1. In reality, it's not that simple.

2. NC doesn't require anyone outside NC to do anything.

3. Are you for or against making bathrooms unisex? Make up your mind!

4. above


1. No major plumbing changes are required. In many cases, the absolute most that would have to happen would be knocking down a wall between the two rooms, and even that isn't strictly necessary.

2. It was implied that the statement held true within the limits of NC's jurisdiction.

3. & 4. False dichotomy. I fully support gender-neutral bathrooms, but I also realize that without the legal right to use the restroom that is in best accordance with one's gender (i.e., not sex), gender-neutral restrooms become little more than a new "colored restroom" for us.
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Des-Bal
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28736
Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Wed May 18, 2016 4:58 pm

The V O I D wrote:Pardon? What do you mean by that?


Unisex bathrooms are a better idea.

If we're keeping segregated facilities why is it better to go by the person's gender identity than their sex?
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Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 32382
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Wed May 18, 2016 4:58 pm

Northern Freikur wrote:I'm an American (although, I'm getting farther and farther from being proud of it), and I have completely lost faith in our public schooling. This shouldn't even be a debate. The Men's room is for those with "outdoor plumbing", the Women's room is for those with "Indoor Plumbing".

If I ever decide to have children, far be it from me to send them to public school here in America, the quality of education sucks, bathroom signs no longer matter, and they've all got a leftist bias (or at least they do in California). I'd either opt for online (which is my first choice), or just move out.

I also encourage any parents out there to do the same.


Wait, you have never met a woman who has used the men's room because the line to the woman's room is too long (or the other way around). I mean I frequently do this when on road trips because the line to the women's room is so long. I have seen men do the same thing at conventions where the attendance was like 80% men 20% women.

Also, why is the men's room for those with outward plumbing? There is nothing in those rooms that women cannot use, and that includes the urinal. That is especially true if the urinal is unisex.
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