American Gun Laws

[Patridam]

I can't stop you, but such purposeful errors decrease any semblence of legitimacy you might have had in their intentional disrespect of a foundational aspect of America, freedom.

Anyway, back on topic...
http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/upl ... r-1997.png
https://sierrafoothillcommentary.files. ... -large.jpg

Nice graphs, shame they're total poppycock.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ga ... d3cf1c.pdf

Don't worry I won't expect you to read it all. Just read the abstract and the conclusion.

the results are generally negative for the violence control effec- tiveness of gun control

[Fanosolia]

Because you try telling a knife-wielding murderer hanging out in your living room to politely leave.

In all seriousness though, crime is a fairly serious issue in the US, and the only way for private citizens to stop themselves being murdered is to use reasonable force. The main problem is, during the other 98% of the time where you aren't being targeted by a serial killer, your gun is sitting there, easily accessible by anyone with any intentions. Just look at all the times children grabbed their parents firearms and ended up seriously injuring themselves.

It's really just a matter of putting guns in the hands of people who need it. Unfortunately, it's becoming more difficult to figure out everyone's intentions day by day.

Accidental gun deaths are extremely rare, regardless of the age of the victim, and properly trained kids are less likely to have accidents.

Just how young are those gun licenses down there? Or when you say properly trained you mean by an adult?

[Esternial]

Nice graphs, shame they're total poppycock.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ga ... d3cf1c.pdf

Don't worry I won't expect you to read it all. Just read the abstract and the conclusion.

the results are generally negative for the violence control effec- tiveness of gun control

Wow you didn't even bother reading more than one line. Kudos.

Clearly you're only interesting in quoting specific parts of an article to prove your point, but unfortunately I read the entire conclusion section. At least you tried, though.

Guess I've proven your contribution to this debate is insignificant and unreliable.

[Italios]

Wow you didn't even bother reading more than one line. Kudos.

Clearly you're only interesting in quoting specific parts of an article to prove your point, but unfortunately I read the entire conclusion section. At least you tried, though.

Guess I've proven your contribution to this debate is insignificant and unreliable.

It doesn't even start in the conclusions section.

Among men, among women, and in every age group (including children), states with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicides " (as quoted in Miller and Hemenway 2008, p. 990). "

That's literally the bulk of the first paragraph.

[Big Jim P]

Accidental gun deaths are extremely rare, regardless of the age of the victim, and properly trained kids are less likely to have accidents.

Just how young are those gun licenses down there? Or when you say properly trained you mean by an adult?

Gun licenses? Down here in Texas? Guns are not licensed here, and yes, I mean properly trained by an adult. Look back a few pages and you will see that several of us have been shooting since we were very young. In my case, since I was six or so.

[Esternial]

Wow you didn't even bother reading more than one line. Kudos.

Clearly you're only interesting in quoting specific parts of an article to prove your point, but unfortunately I read the entire conclusion section. At least you tried, though.

Guess I've proven your contribution to this debate is insignificant and unreliable.

It doesn't even start in the conclusions section.

Among men, among women, and in every age group (including children), states with higher rates of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicides " (as quoted in Miller and Hemenway 2008, p. 990). "

That's literally the bulk of the first paragraph.

Very much so. Guess he made a good call by pissing off.

There do appear to be some gun controls which work, all of them relatively moderate, popular, and inexpensive. Thus, there is support for a gun control policy organized around gun owner licensing or purchase permits (or some other form of gun buyer screening), stricter local dealer licensing, bans on possession of guns by criminals and mentally ill people, stronger controls over illegal carrying, and possibly discretionary add-on penalties for committing felonies with a gun. On the other hand, popular favorites such as waiting periods and gun registration do not appear to affect violence rate

Amazing. I'm flabbergasted. Apparently the middle road is the best approach. Who would have thought?

Maybe if more people used studies on this issue that have already been published instead of wrongfully diagnosing themselves as intellectually competent enough at performing their own scientific studies on gun crime (and related subjects), this debate might make more progress.

[Fanosolia]

Just how young are those gun licenses down there? Or when you say properly trained you mean by an adult?

Gun licenses? Down here in Texas? Guns are not licensed here, and yes, I mean properly trained by an adult. Look back a few pages and you will see that several of us have been shooting since we were very young. In my case, since I was six or so.

Right I forgot you're texan. Sorry about that. But then again, I didn't think it was that lax there. Like I know about the open carry movement, but that was about it.

Hey, on the topic of training, I'm curious of what you think of the idea of marksmanship/gun saftey classes in high schools? I remember that used to be a thing somewhere, or atleast if I recall from a thread a long time ago.

[United Marxist Nations]

Gun control doesn't work in a country with this many guns, look at Russia ffs.

[Esternial]

Gun control doesn't work in a country with this many guns, look at Russia ffs.

Except it does, if the kinds of control are used that actually work and so long people don't expect it to magically solve all of society's problems (which some particularly fervent gun-control activists probably do).

A lack of realism is common with both extremes of the spectrum. Gun-control fanatics think it'll solve everything and fanatic gun owners think their guns will be pried from their hands by the president himself.

[Geilinor]

Very much so. Guess he made a good call by pissing off.

There do appear to be some gun controls which work, all of them relatively moderate, popular, and inexpensive. Thus, there is support for a gun control policy organized around gun owner licensing or purchase permits (or some other form of gun buyer screening), stricter local dealer licensing, bans on possession of guns by criminals and mentally ill people, stronger controls over illegal carrying, and possibly discretionary add-on penalties for committing felonies with a gun. On the other hand, popular favorites such as waiting periods and gun registration do not appear to affect violence rate

Amazing. I'm flabbergasted. Apparently the middle road is the best approach. Who would have thought?

Maybe if more people used studies on this issue that have already been published instead of wrongfully diagnosing themselves as intellectually competent enough at performing their own scientific studies on gun crime (and related subjects), this debate might make more progress.

I've always argued for that middle road but on NSG threads, that view never gets heard. However, I don't think licensing or purchase permits will get a fair hearing before being shot down and neither will stricter dealer licensing. On waiting periods, they have been shown to reduce the suicide rate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/

Implementation and evaluation of measures such as waiting periods and permit requirements that restrict access to handguns should be a top priority for reducing deaths from impulsive suicide in the United States.

[Neu California]

Do not argue with me I like firearms.

The gun control group however sees culture as a weak argument vs less firearms = less firearms deaths.

In America that is untrue, in the places were we have the least firearms we have the most crimes, and the most deaths. While some law abiding citizens might turn their guns in, no criminal would.

And does this account for population density, socioeconomic conditions, and other factors that might play a role in crime rates? No? Good to know

[Betha]

The idea that all Americans are racist gun-obsessed psychopaths is a gross stereotype. While there's an astonishing number of mass-shootings annually, most of these occur in states with strict gun control. The more gun control that is enforced in America, the stronger the black market will get. And people pursuing the black market are the ones trying to hurt people anyway.
Also, the same could be said of vehicle deaths " Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day. An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled," [url]asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safety.../road-crash-statistics.
It isn't the fault of paranoid people buying up guns and ammunition in the hypothetical situation of the government going corrupt or crazy people invading, it's the disturbed people allowed access to weapons of any sort.

[Esternial]

Very much so. Guess he made a good call by pissing off.



Amazing. I'm flabbergasted. Apparently the middle road is the best approach. Who would have thought?

Maybe if more people used studies on this issue that have already been published instead of wrongfully diagnosing themselves as intellectually competent enough at performing their own scientific studies on gun crime (and related subjects), this debate might make more progress.

I've always argued for that middle road but on NSG threads, that view never gets heard. However, I don't think licensing or purchase permits will get a fair hearing before being shot down and neither will stricter dealer licensing. On waiting periods, they have been shown to reduce the suicide rate. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3518361/

Implementation and evaluation of measures such as waiting periods and permit requirements that restrict access to handguns should be a top priority for reducing deaths from impulsive suicide in the United States.

Which is sad really, when people just ignore the results from studies to peddle bullshit instead. Each gun control measure should be elaborately evaluated on their potential merits and if there are some that need to be implements, they must be implemented. Using the same old arguments isn't going to cut it.

People should be informed as to why a particular measure would help prior to implementing it. The problem is that legislators and media treat the common civilian as an idiot and feeds them shitty arguments instead of proper substantiated data. The same thing led to the widespread aversion to GMO in Europe. People were simply not being informed properly, leading to misconceptions and the incubation of stupidity.

[Esternial]

The idea that all Americans are racist gun-obsessed psychopaths is a gross stereotype. While there's an astonishing number of mass-shootings annually, most of these occur in states with strict gun control. The more gun control that is enforced in America, the stronger the black market will get. And people pursuing the black market are the ones trying to hurt people anyway.
Also, the same could be said of vehicle deaths " Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day. An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled," [url]asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safety.../road-crash-statistics.
It isn't the fault of paranoid people buying up guns and ammunition in the hypothetical situation of the government going corrupt or crazy people invading, it's the disturbed people allowed access to weapons of any sort.

Support your arguments with proper studies or don't bother. I've already posted a study that indicates some types of proper gun controls can have their merits. Scroll up.

[Neu California]

BTW, since, Switzerland has been brought up multiple times (now that I've caught up to the thread), I thought I'd bring up their gun control measures which, as it turns out, are ones that gun control advocates typically take major issue with. My sources are this and this.

First and foremost, no, not everyone in Switzerland is required to have a gun. It's just the conscripted males under 30 who are given a gun that they must store at home with no ammo. When they reach 30, they may keep their weapons after being approved for an acquisition permit if they have justification for having it.

Also, you can buy a weapon in Switzerland, but you have to go through a background check and prove you have no mental illness. Also, and this will make gun rights advocates cringe, they have a national gun registry.

Open carry is also only legal under certain, limited circumstances, and the citizens of Switzerland seem to think that their bearing arms is to protect the government from foreign invaders, not protect themselves from the government, which suggests a major difference in attitude there.

So, yeah, let's be more like Switzerland. They seem to have more sanity when it comes to guns

[Esternial]

BTW, since, Switzerland has been brought up multiple times (now that I've caught up to the thread), I thought I'd bring up their gun control measures which, as it turns out, are ones that gun control advocates typically take major issue with. My sources are this and this.

First and foremost, no, not everyone in Switzerland is required to have a gun. It's just the conscripted males under 30 who are given a gun that they must store at home with no ammo. When they reach 30, they may keep their weapons after being approved for an acquisition permit if they have justification for having it.

Also, you can buy a weapon in Switzerland, but you have to go through a background check and prove you have no mental illness. Also, and this will make gun rights advocates cringe, they have a national gun registry.

Open carry is also only legal under certain, limited circumstances, and the citizens of Switzerland seem to think that their bearing arms is to protect the government from foreign invaders, not protect themselves from the government, which suggests a major difference in attitude there.

So, yeah, let's be more like Switzerland. They seem to have more sanity when it comes to guns

Hope you are being sarcastic.

If not I'm not sure why you think comparing two very different countries makes a decent argument.

[Geilinor]

If not I'm not sure why you think comparing two very different countries makes a decent argument.

He's refuting the idea some American conservatives have that Switzerland has low crime despite lax gun laws. However, their laws are significantly stricter than in America.

[Neu California]

BTW, since, Switzerland has been brought up multiple times (now that I've caught up to the thread), I thought I'd bring up their gun control measures which, as it turns out, are ones that gun control advocates typically take major issue with. My sources are this and this.

First and foremost, no, not everyone in Switzerland is required to have a gun. It's just the conscripted males under 30 who are given a gun that they must store at home with no ammo. When they reach 30, they may keep their weapons after being approved for an acquisition permit if they have justification for having it.

Also, you can buy a weapon in Switzerland, but you have to go through a background check and prove you have no mental illness. Also, and this will make gun rights advocates cringe, they have a national gun registry.

Open carry is also only legal under certain, limited circumstances, and the citizens of Switzerland seem to think that their bearing arms is to protect the government from foreign invaders, not protect themselves from the government, which suggests a major difference in attitude there.

So, yeah, let's be more like Switzerland. They seem to have more sanity when it comes to guns

Hope you are being sarcastic.

If not I'm not sure why you think comparing two very different countries makes a decent argument.

I only bring it up because many gun rights advocates (including a few in this thread) bring up Switzerland as a good model top follow and/or a good argument for more guns causing less crime, not because I have any desire to model our gun laws on Switzerland's (so yes, the last part is sarcastic)

[Esternial]

Hope you are being sarcastic.

If not I'm not sure why you think comparing two very different countries makes a decent argument.

I only bring it up because many gun rights advocates (including a few in this thread) bring up Switzerland as a good model top follow and/or a good argument for more guns causing less crime, not because I have any desire to model our gun laws on Switzerland's (so yes, the last part is sarcastic)

It's a common argument, yes. Kinda like the one comparing guns to cars, too. It's popular, apparently, to compare wholly different things.

[Big Jim P]

Gun licenses? Down here in Texas? Guns are not licensed here, and yes, I mean properly trained by an adult. Look back a few pages and you will see that several of us have been shooting since we were very young. In my case, since I was six or so.

Right I forgot you're texan. Sorry about that. But then again, I didn't think it was that lax there. Like I know about the open carry movement, but that was about it.

Hey, on the topic of training, I'm curious of what you think of the idea of marksmanship/gun saftey classes in high schools? I remember that used to be a thing somewhere, or atleast if I recall from a thread a long time ago.

Open carry of long arms was always legal in Texas, and as of today, people with a CHL can carry openly. Now we just need Constitutional carry and we are good.

I posted about training in school a few pages back.

[Esternial]

Right I forgot you're texan. Sorry about that. But then again, I didn't think it was that lax there. Like I know about the open carry movement, but that was about it.

Hey, on the topic of training, I'm curious of what you think of the idea of marksmanship/gun saftey classes in high schools? I remember that used to be a thing somewhere, or atleast if I recall from a thread a long time ago.

Open carry of long arms was always legal in Texas, and as of today, people with a CHL can carry openly. Now we just need Constitutional carry and we are good.

I posted about training in school a few pages back.

Why would there be a need for Constitutional Carry?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Gun control doesn't work in a country with this many guns, look at Russia ffs.

Except it does, if the kinds of control are used that actually work and so long people don't expect it to magically solve all of society's problems (which some particularly fervent gun-control activists probably do).

A lack of realism is common with both extremes of the spectrum. Gun-control fanatics think it'll solve everything and fanatic gun owners think their guns will be pried from their hands by the president himself.

Except it really wouldn't, there's 300,000,000 (probably closer to 400 million with the recent up in gun sales for the past few months) guns in this country. That number only gets higher when you start counting black market guns and whatnot too. I can respect the efforts of the gun control side, but that looks like a really unwinnable battle no matter what from where I'm standing.

[Esternial]

Except it does, if the kinds of control are used that actually work and so long people don't expect it to magically solve all of society's problems (which some particularly fervent gun-control activists probably do).

A lack of realism is common with both extremes of the spectrum. Gun-control fanatics think it'll solve everything and fanatic gun owners think their guns will be pried from their hands by the president himself.

Except it really wouldn't, there's 300,000,000 (probably closer to 400 million with the recent up in gun sales for the past few months) guns in this country. That number only gets higher when you start counting black market guns and whatnot too. I can respect the efforts of the gun control side, but that looks like a really unwinnable battle no matter what from where I'm standing.

It's never too late to start efforts for improving. Just because it won't bear fruits in your lifetime doesn't mean it's not worth it, which is a big issue these days because most people are to self-oriented to ever think about the future of their country or world that extends beyond their lifetime.

[Imperializt Russia]

The idea that all Americans are racist gun-obsessed psychopaths is a gross stereotype. While there's an astonishing number of mass-shootings annually, most of these occur in states with strict gun control.

I feel the correlation isn't causal. If it even exists.
In countries that have gun control, read almost every western country not the US, there are fewer mass shootings per decade than the US has per month.

It isn't the fault of paranoid people buying up guns and ammunition in the hypothetical situation of the government going corrupt or crazy people invading, it's the disturbed people allowed access to weapons of any sort.

Those two things are the same.

[Patridam]

Wow you didn't even bother reading more than one line. Kudos.

Clearly you're only interesting in quoting specific parts of an article to prove your point, but unfortunately I read the entire conclusion section. At least you tried, though.

Guess I've proven your contribution to this debate is insignificant and unreliable.

I read the rest, its just that everything they deem as potentially effective elsewhere in the conclusion is already in place, and they argue against waiting periods.

The idea that all Americans are racist gun-obsessed psychopaths is a gross stereotype. While there's an astonishing number of mass-shootings annually, most of these occur in states with strict gun control.

I feel the correlation isn't causal. If it even exists.
In countries that have gun control, read almost every western country not the US, there are fewer mass shootings per decade than the US has per month.

Speaking of wild claims of correlation to causation, are you implying that the only difference between the USA and other countries is our number of firearms?