Brussels Terrorist Attack: ISIS Claims Responsibility

[Liriena]

The Arab Spring is more of an attempt to get the Muslim Brotherhood in power in the Arab world and turn it into one big Caliphate.

As someone who actually studied the Arab Spring, I'm going to go with "nope, that wasn't it".

The Arab Spring was mostly a series of attempts (many of them successful) to overthrow decades-long tyrannical and corrupt regimes across the Arab world, and generally speaking the revolutionaries demanded respect for their human rights and an improvement of their countries' political and economic systems. Violent extremism generally seems to have been a product of the revolutions themselves turning into civil wars, as the ruling regimes chose to respond to their opposition with mass violence. It's difficult for extremism not to rise when the regime you oppose responds violently even to peaceful protests.

[Vassenor]

Except you're preventing people with family in the countries ISIS is recruiting from from seeing their families. Or maybe even people who went to do some form of relief work. There are probably businesses that are dumb enough to make their employees go on business trips to conflict zones too.

Or who knows, maybe even people who went to join ISIS, decided ISIS was crazy, and want to return home.

All of these people are not terrorists. And members of the latter group, especially... if they were lured in by ISIS's extremely effective social engineering, but then realized that ISIS's promises were lies and tried to leave... barring them from returning to their homes forces them to stay. And again, once they're forced to stay, there's really not much choice for them except to join ISIS, even if they wouldn't have otherwise.

I said ISIS fighters not everyone returning. If it is proven that person joined ISIS then there is no reason not to arrest him.
Of course I don't talk about people who do somekind of relief work like helping people in need. I have talked only about ISIS fighters.

And how do you prove that?

And what does this do about home-grown extremism?

[Ifreann]

So, are you going to tell me Germans don't learn about Wagner, Frederick the Great, Goethe, Beethoven, Heisenberg, and others because of the Nazi's? The culture of Nazi Germany was full of xenophobia and nationalism, but it also had a strong support for so-called "natural" Germans, like the above.

The ideology of Nazism was eliminated. Not the culture.

What's the alternative. The Arab spring didn't fix shit, if anything it made it worse. Leaving them to decide their own government doesn't work.
Installing secular dictators doesn't work.
We need to attack the problem at its root.

Do you have a timetable on that? If you're going to start militarily occupying nations and destroying their culture and forcing the survivors to adopt religious and political beliefs you find more palatable then I'd quite like to flee abroad before you finish with the Muslims and turn west.

[Ganos Lao]

You assume I support Assad.

I could care less about him. I just don't trust whoever will take over as his successor will likely be the same old bullshit - a radical Islamist government of some sort. Nor do I trust the United States government and their allies, especially considering how one of their allies is funding an Al-Qaeda aflliated group in Syria.

"Escalate his own country into civil war'

I love how Assad gets blamed for this, though, but none of you are willing to call out al-Maliki with the same fervor. Everywhere I go on the internet, Assad is the villain wihle no one knows the Iraqi Assad.

Evil Zionist Leon Panetta blamed him.

So?

Until al-Maliki sees as much contempt and hatred, as much demand for his removal, as Assad does, I have no faith in the reconstruction of the Middle East, let alone Syria.

You remove Assad and the Islamists take over or the US and company just put another al-Maliki in Damascus. You might as well keep Assad around at this point.

[Braberland]

The Arab Spring is more of an attempt to get the Muslim Brotherhood in power in the Arab world and turn it into one big Caliphate.

As someone who actually studied the Arab Spring, I'm going to go with "nope, that wasn't it".

The Arab Spring was mostly a series of attempts (many of them successful) to overthrow decades-long tyrannical and corrupt regimes across the Arab world, and generally speaking the revolutionaries demanded respect for their human rights and an improvement of their countries' political and economic systems. Violent extremism generally seems to have been a product of the revolutions themselves turning into civil wars, as the ruling regimes chose to respond to their opposition with mass violence. It's difficult for extremism not to rise when the regime you oppose responds violently even to peaceful protests.

And have any of these revolts succeeded? Tunisia is still under influence from the Muslim Brotherhood, the army had to take care of it in Egypt, Libya is in a civil war, Syria is in a civil war... Thank God the revolutions were crushed with the iron fist of the state and the black boot of the military elsewhere.

[Kelinfort]

Those weren't the aims of all the revolutions. There were anarchists along with some proto-socialists as well.

However, I would argue examples like Tunisia show the people wanted democracy, but are still impatient. It will take time, but by the 2030's or so, we'll see real tangible change across the mid East. Until then, we'd do best to denounce Saudi Arabia, encourage the people of Iran to endorse more democracy, and stomp out ISIL with all the force we have.

I fear it might all end up like Egypt, where muslim extremists took over and had to be kicked out of office by the more secular part of the military and the population less interested in politics.

And in Tunisia the Muslim Brotherhood almost won the elections. There's a big chance they will win the next ones.

The two parties in the runoff for the presidency were both secular. Ennadha is the second largest party in the parliament, but it's also the only major Islamist party. The rest in parliament, including Nidaa Tounes, are all secular.

[Lunalia]

Except you're preventing people with family in the countries ISIS is recruiting from from seeing their families. Or maybe even people who went to do some form of relief work. There are probably businesses that are dumb enough to make their employees go on business trips to conflict zones too.

Or who knows, maybe even people who went to join ISIS, decided ISIS was crazy, and want to return home.

All of these people are not terrorists. And members of the latter group, especially... if they were lured in by ISIS's extremely effective social engineering, but then realized that ISIS's promises were lies and tried to leave... barring them from returning to their homes forces them to stay. And again, once they're forced to stay, there's really not much choice for them except to join ISIS, even if they wouldn't have otherwise.

I said ISIS fighters not everyone returning. If it is proven that person joined ISIS then there is no reason not to arrest him.
Of course I don't talk about people who do somekind of relief work like helping people in need. I have talked only about ISIS fighters.

Except how are you supposed to tell the difference between a genuine ISIS fighter, someone who unfortunately had a major family emergency in the conflict zone, and someone who bought ISIS's lies until they went there, saw the truth, and decided to leave?

Unfortunately, the media has fed people so many lies in the last twenty years or so that I could probably make a website and a social media account announcing that all the world's oil reserves are going to be depleted in a year and collect a large following simply because they'd perceive me as being "willing to tell the truth when the media/government lies". This is how ISIS recruits. It makes people believe that all the bad stuff you hear about them isn't really true, and that they're fighting for what is right, and to end persecution against Muslims. That sounds noble, if you're the sort of person who will believe things like that, until you actually go to Syria and realize that the mainstream media was actually right.

[Trada]

What's wrong with a "one big Caliphate" ??

[Risottia]

Hark hark, the Oklahoma bombings were made by immigrant muslims now! I heard it on Faux News so it must be true!

You're really bringing up one attack that occurred 20 years ago to make your point?

Yes.

Are you sweeping it under the carpet implying that terrorism conducted by local-borns doesn't matter? Because, last time I checked, mr.Abdeslam was born IN BELGIUM as a FRENCH national. Hence, perfectly local.

[Ganos Lao]

The Arab Spring is more of an attempt to get the Muslim Brotherhood in power in the Arab world and turn it into one big Caliphate.

As someone who actually studied the Arab Spring, I'm going to go with "nope, that wasn't it".

The Arab Spring was mostly a series of attempts (many of them successful) to overthrow decades-long tyrannical and corrupt regimes across the Arab world, and generally speaking the revolutionaries demanded respect for their human rights and an improvement of their countries' political and economic systems. Violent extremism generally seems to have been a product of the revolutions themselves turning into civil wars, as the ruling regimes chose to respond to their opposition with mass violence. It's difficult for extremism not to rise when the regime you oppose responds violently even to peaceful protests.

Just a friendly reminder, Liri, that those corrupt regimes used Western military hardware on their own people, but yet countries like Canada give out their biggest arms deals to date to those very same regimes:

In March 2011, Saudi Arabia sent armoured vehicles to help quell peaceful civilian protests in neighbouring Bahrain. One of several media outlets that made such claims, Britain’s Telegraph reported that Saudi troops were in Bahrain to “crush” the protests.

The Canadian government has neither confirmed nor denied that the armoured vehicles used by Saudi forces in Bahrain were made in Canada. In May 2015, The Globe and Mail reported, “Asked if it believes the Saudis used made-in-Canada LAVs when they went into Bahrain, the Canadian government doesn’t deny this happened.”

[Braberland]

What's wrong with a "one big Caliphate" ??

Imagine if a 15th century pope ruled over a military superpower consisting of backward extremist catholics who swore to destroy any other religion and culture not part of theirs...

[Lunalia]

What's wrong with a "one big Caliphate" ??

The fact that some people want it to be ruled with the iron fist of sharia law, and some people don't.

[Liriena]

As someone who actually studied the Arab Spring, I'm going to go with "nope, that wasn't it".

The Arab Spring was mostly a series of attempts (many of them successful) to overthrow decades-long tyrannical and corrupt regimes across the Arab world, and generally speaking the revolutionaries demanded respect for their human rights and an improvement of their countries' political and economic systems. Violent extremism generally seems to have been a product of the revolutions themselves turning into civil wars, as the ruling regimes chose to respond to their opposition with mass violence. It's difficult for extremism not to rise when the regime you oppose responds violently even to peaceful protests.

And have any of these revolts succeeded?

Many of them did. Despite the difficulties that followed, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt succeeded in ridding themselves of the regimes that had been oppressing them for decades. In Saudi Arabia, the monarchy ended up giving into some of the opposition's demands, including giving women the vote.

Thank God the revolutions were crushed with the iron fist of the state and the black boot of the military elsewhere.

Yes, praised by the tyrannical regimes that responded to the legitimate demands of their own citizenry with violence. Because who cares about democracy and human rights, anyway?

[Salus Maior]

I think the existence of a Caliphate would be beneficial. Maybe not as a huge political entity but as something like the Vatican? Just something to help guide Islam and prevent it from going crazy.

[Trada]

What's wrong with a "one big Caliphate" ??

The fact that some people want it to be ruled with the iron fist of sharia law, and some people don't.

What's wrong with a "one big fixed (no problems like seperatists, or insurgents,..) Caliphate" ??

[The Serbian Empire]

This is almost certainly ISIS.

[Vassenor]

The fact that some people want it to be ruled with the iron fist of sharia law, and some people don't.

What's wrong with a "one big fixed (no problems like seperatists, or insurgents,..) Caliphate" ??

Because forcing a religion onto people is not a good thing and people do not like it.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

They lead the invasion.



Send equipment and trainers to these places so they can fight the terrorists themselves.



Well, I'd say that observation is inaccurate.

Sending equipment and trainers didn't work in Iraq.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

This time, send some Canadian and Australian trainers. We are way better trained as soldiers then US solders.

[Ganos Lao]

In Saudi Arabia, the monarchy ended up giving into some of the opposition's demands, including giving women the vote.

Are you seriously buying into the bullshit, Liri? The Saudis didn't do shit. They're trying to fool people like you (no offense) into believing they care. The Saudis aren't stupid. They know what they're doing.

I think the existence of a Caliphate would be beneficial. Maybe not as a huge political entity but as something like the Vatican? Just something to help guide Islam and prevent it from going crazy.

Could've had that with the Hashemites in the Hejaz, being that they descend from Muhammad and all, but nope.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

The fact that some people want it to be ruled with the iron fist of sharia law, and some people don't.

What's wrong with a "one big fixed (no problems like seperatists, or insurgents,..) Caliphate" ??

It's a contradictio in terminis.

[Uxupox]

I think the existence of a Caliphate would be beneficial. Maybe not as a huge political entity but as something like the Vatican? Just something to help guide Islam and prevent it from going crazy.

We already got one Caliphate called ISIS, we don't need another.

[Mugrul]

As someone who actually studied the Arab Spring, I'm going to go with "nope, that wasn't it".

The Arab Spring was mostly a series of attempts (many of them successful) to overthrow decades-long tyrannical and corrupt regimes across the Arab world, and generally speaking the revolutionaries demanded respect for their human rights and an improvement of their countries' political and economic systems. Violent extremism generally seems to have been a product of the revolutions themselves turning into civil wars, as the ruling regimes chose to respond to their opposition with mass violence. It's difficult for extremism not to rise when the regime you oppose responds violently even to peaceful protests.

Just a friendly reminder, Liri, that those corrupt regimes used Western military hardware on their own people, but yet countries like Canada give out their biggest arms deals to date to those very same regimes:

In March 2011, Saudi Arabia sent armoured vehicles to help quell peaceful civilian protests in neighbouring Bahrain. One of several media outlets that made such claims, Britain’s Telegraph reported that Saudi troops were in Bahrain to “crush” the protests.

The Canadian government has neither confirmed nor denied that the armoured vehicles used by Saudi forces in Bahrain were made in Canada. In May 2015, The Globe and Mail reported, “Asked if it believes the Saudis used made-in-Canada LAVs when they went into Bahrain, the Canadian government doesn’t deny this happened.”

Ok what's that supposed to prove?

"West is bad, lets hand the Middle East over to the Ba'athers!"?

[Liriena]

As someone who actually studied the Arab Spring, I'm going to go with "nope, that wasn't it".

The Arab Spring was mostly a series of attempts (many of them successful) to overthrow decades-long tyrannical and corrupt regimes across the Arab world, and generally speaking the revolutionaries demanded respect for their human rights and an improvement of their countries' political and economic systems. Violent extremism generally seems to have been a product of the revolutions themselves turning into civil wars, as the ruling regimes chose to respond to their opposition with mass violence. It's difficult for extremism not to rise when the regime you oppose responds violently even to peaceful protests.

Just a friendly reminder, Liri, that those corrupt regimes used Western military hardware on their own people, but yet countries like Canada give out their biggest arms deals to date to those very same regimes:

In March 2011, Saudi Arabia sent armoured vehicles to help quell peaceful civilian protests in neighbouring Bahrain. One of several media outlets that made such claims, Britain’s Telegraph reported that Saudi troops were in Bahrain to “crush” the protests.

The Canadian government has neither confirmed nor denied that the armoured vehicles used by Saudi forces in Bahrain were made in Canada. In May 2015, The Globe and Mail reported, “Asked if it believes the Saudis used made-in-Canada LAVs when they went into Bahrain, the Canadian government doesn’t deny this happened.”

Thanks. I should have mentioned that was well. The tyrannical regimes in question also had the support of Western powers, and it could actually be argued that they only stayed in power for so long because of Western support.

[Trada]

What's wrong with a "one big Caliphate" ??

Imagine if a 15th century pope ruled over a military superpower consisting of backward extremist catholics who swore to destroy any other religion and culture not part of theirs...

Well, if there is a fixed Caliphate (where there is strict sharia law, etc...), "we" could say:"Look there is peace in "your" country (empire), so you can go back now"

I, personally, think this is way better to solve the "extreme rightis-muslim (or leftist)"-problem.

[Ganos Lao]

Just a friendly reminder, Liri, that those corrupt regimes used Western military hardware on their own people, but yet countries like Canada give out their biggest arms deals to date to those very same regimes:

Ok what's that supposed to prove?

"West is bad, lets hand the Middle East over to the Ba'athers!"?

It's to prove that all sides suck and that the time has come for new and fresh ideas.

Simply put, it's time everyone STFU and let some new faces come in and try to make sense of everything. Granted, I don't know who those new faces could be right now, but we need something more, damn it.