Brussels Terrorist Attack: ISIS Claims Responsibility

[Braberland]

Are you being serious?
Trying to put and end to terrorists attacks in Europe is not playing into ISIS hands because if you don't do anything they will keep commiting terrorists attacks and this is really playing into their hands.

Have you been paying attention here? All this talk of how we need to destroy Islam in order to stop the terrorism? When what ISIS is saying is that The West wants to destroy Islam and that the only place where Muslims can be safe from persecution for their faith is under their thumb?

I don't really fear the the muslim masses. Numbers can't really win from superior civilisations.

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

Yeah, because when has fighting muslims ever turned out to be a war full of atrocities?

Sure, you can compare something that happened to medieval times to modern day.

Well, to be honest, most muslims still live in the Stone Age...

I'm pretty sure all Muslim countries know metalworking.

[Vassenor]

Have you been paying attention here? All this talk of how we need to destroy Islam in order to stop the terrorism? When what ISIS is saying is that The West wants to destroy Islam and that the only place where Muslims can be safe from persecution for their faith is under their thumb?

I don't really fear the the muslim masses. Numbers can't really win from superior civilisations.

What makes our civilisation superior?

[Ostroeuropa]

Are you being serious?
Trying to put and end to terrorists attacks in Europe is not playing into ISIS hands because if you don't do anything they will keep commiting terrorists attacks and this is really playing into their hands.

Have you been paying attention here? All this talk of how we need to destroy Islam in order to stop the terrorism? When what ISIS is saying is that The West wants to destroy Islam and that the only place where Muslims can be safe from persecution for their faith is under their thumb?

If someone is determined to kill you and wants you to fight back so they can feel justified in doing so, but will keep trying to kill you anyway, why not fight back?
because it's what they want?

No, no it isn't.

What they want is for you to fight back and lose.
What they don't realize is that their god isn't real, but our military superiority is.

I can assure you, ISIS does not want the west to fight back and win. It's ludicrous to propose as much.

Do you have a suggestion for how we stop them from trying to kill us, or an argument for why we should just put up with it and not fight back?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

And you know on a personal level most muslims?

And if you want a more modern story...

I love it that you use America as an example, the retard kid of the class called the Western World...

They lead the invasion.

It doesn't matter who started it.

What matters is that sending soldiers to fight muslims in the middle east is not the best idea because of the aforementioned atrocities.

What do you suggest then?

Send equipment and trainers to these places so they can fight the terrorists themselves.

I never said that.

What i'm saying is that both sides were equally bad and that the church could have stopped being bad but nope atrocities away.

I never said you said that. It was merely an observation about people who do.

Well, I'd say that observation is inaccurate.

[Kelinfort]

Nazism was a political ideology, not an entire culture.

So is Islam.

When you base your entire culture around an ideology, the two become synonymous. Islam is quite a totalitarian religion in that it prescribes rules for much of day to day life and social interaction. The culture of totalitarian states is often one and the same as its governing ideology, so destruction of one is basically the same as destruction of the other.
Assisting the natives with reconnecting to their pre-islamic cultural roots would also be beneficial, as well as encouraging them to take the view of themselves as part of the international community, similar to the german scenario.

For nazi germany, the de-nazification process pretty much WAS the entire culture being destroyed and rebuilt.

So, are you going to tell me Germans don't learn about Wagner, Frederick the Great, Goethe, Beethoven, Heisenberg, and others because of the Nazi's? The culture of Nazi Germany was full of xenophobia and nationalism, but it also had a strong support for so-called "natural" Germans, like the above.

The ideology of Nazism was eliminated. Not the culture.

[Salus Maior]

National Socialism was a political ideology, albeit with some cultural aspirations, but it never quite got deeply ingrained enough in all of German society for its elimination to be a "genocide". Removing National Socialism from German society did not risk leaving a massive void in their ethnic or national identity, or even in their political identity.

I've accepted that you would need to fill that void in a manner similar to what we did with the Germans. (As in, since we controlled the education, we looked into history for appropriate Germanic values and heros and talked about them and such.)
For the middle east, learning about pre-islamic civilizations and such, and secular heros, could do the trick.

I'm not hearing any alternative solutions to the problem frankly, which makes all the people acting hysterical over my suggestion seem silly to me. How else do we solve this problem?

It wouldn't solve the problem. It would simply force the rest of Islam into joining with the likes of ISIS, because you literally just proved that what ISIS says about the west is TRUE.

[Ganos Lao]

Yeah, that's gonna work. Like it worked in Iraq and Afghanistan.



You sure you don't want to join ISIS? Destroying statues and art is fun!

We didn't occupy Iraq or Afghanistan for long enough, nor did we make largescale efforts to change the culture of the locals.

The US should never have been in Iraq in the first place.

But they sure did change the culture of the locals, inciting them to be led about by a Shiite oligarchy that instigated the rise of ISIS.

Maybe the next dictator America can back is Assad so we don't need to see Syria get even worse?

[Jordbruksland]

Its horrible...

[Kelinfort]

Yeah, that's gonna work. Like it worked in Iraq and Afghanistan.



You sure you don't want to join ISIS? Destroying statues and art is fun!

The United States didn't actively try and educate them.

You're right, that would be so much harder.

[Lunalia]

Like I said, we are playing right into ISIS' hands and doing it with a sense of utter glee.

Are you being serious?
Trying to put and end to terrorists attacks in Europe is not playing into ISIS hands because if you don't do anything they will keep commiting terrorists attacks and this is really playing into their hands.

They WANT people to make ordinary Muslims feel targetted. Any method of preventing terrorist attacks that also targets Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism is playing into their hands.

What would you rather have? Occasional terrorist attacks, or frequent terrorist attacks as ALL of the muslims living in a country begin to feel that they have no choice, that if they do nothing things will continue to escalate. What is next? "Muslims cannot use mass transit because some terrorists bombed mass transit"? What are all the Muslims who rely on mass transit to get to their perfectly peaceful, not terroristic jobs, going to do? Become unemployed in an economy that still hasn't quite recovered? Remain unemployed because they can't find any work they can get to without mass transit? Or lash out violently, because they decide that hey, if they're going to be seen to be a terrorist anyway, might as well be a terrorist because at least that way the other terrorists will be on their side.

Because when or if (I'm leaning towards when, because people are dumb) suddenly you won't just be worrying mostly about people who went to the war zone. You'll be worrying about people who desperately tried to be part of society, but were constantly slapped in the face, suddenly deciding the get even with the society that repeatedly slapped them in the face. And then anything you do to try to prevent them will make things worse because you'll inevitably make people who didn't want to do anything violent decide that if they don't do something violent it will only get worse.

[Ganos Lao]

Well, I'd say that observation is inaccurate.

How so? There are plenty who think that's what the Crusaders were all about when the truth is that both sides were quite bad as you've said you profess.

[Liriena]

For the middle east, learning about pre-islamic civilizations

Or more humane Islamic civilizations.

and secular heros

Like Atatürk? I could get behind that.

How else do we solve this problem?

I don't know, because I know that it's a very complicated problem that most likely can't be solved with broad strokes.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

They are citizens of a country. They have exactly the same rights as any other citizen of that country. If you commit a crime in another nation, you have a right to return. That goes for all citizens. Unless you want to legally segregate Muslims and non-Muslims, this is not going to happen.

The treaty these nations would have to withdraw from is the European Convention on the Rights of Citizens and Political Freedoms, one of the most important treaties in Europe. It grants protection against discrimination, the right to a democratic society, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, among others. Also, right to family life. If you want to throw all those overboard because you want to be vengeful against terrorists, go ahead. Just know that you are doing a lot more damage than a IS combatant could have ever done.

But let me ask you. What is your solution? Are you okay with ISIS fighters coming back to Europe and planning new attacks?

Charging and prosecuting criminals to the full extent of the law, and not a millimetre further. My solution would not involve illegal actions by governments because they're the easy thing to do. Discourage people from going to Syria, arrest them if they have a real intent (as classified by the law and jurisprudence) and if they do go and come back, charge them with an appropriate crime. That's the legal way of going about things.

[Ganos Lao]

The United States didn't actively try and educate them.

You're right, that would be so much harder.

Not to mention America doesn't have enough intelligent teachers anyway.

[Ostroeuropa]

So is Islam.

When you base your entire culture around an ideology, the two become synonymous. Islam is quite a totalitarian religion in that it prescribes rules for much of day to day life and social interaction. The culture of totalitarian states is often one and the same as its governing ideology, so destruction of one is basically the same as destruction of the other.
Assisting the natives with reconnecting to their pre-islamic cultural roots would also be beneficial, as well as encouraging them to take the view of themselves as part of the international community, similar to the german scenario.

For nazi germany, the de-nazification process pretty much WAS the entire culture being destroyed and rebuilt.

So, are you going to tell me Germans don't learn about Wagner, Frederick the Great, Goethe, Beethoven, Heisenberg, and others because of the Nazi's? The culture of Nazi Germany was full of xenophobia and nationalism, but it also had a strong support for so-called "natural" Germans, like the above.

The ideology of Nazism was eliminated. Not the culture.

What's the alternative. The Arab spring didn't fix shit, if anything it made it worse. Leaving them to decide their own government doesn't work.
Installing secular dictators doesn't work.
We need to attack the problem at its root.

[Uxupox]

I love it that you use America as an example, the retard kid of the class called the Western World...

They lead the invasion.

What do you suggest then?

Send equipment and trainers to these places so they can fight the terrorists themselves.

I never said you said that. It was merely an observation about people who do.

Well, I'd say that observation is inaccurate.

Sending equipment and trainers didn't work in Iraq.

[Teemant]

Are you being serious?
Trying to put and end to terrorists attacks in Europe is not playing into ISIS hands because if you don't do anything they will keep commiting terrorists attacks and this is really playing into their hands.

They WANT people to make ordinary Muslims feel targetted. Any method of preventing terrorist attacks that also targets Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism is playing into their hands.

What would you rather have? Occasional terrorist attacks, or frequent terrorist attacks as ALL of the muslims living in a country begin to feel that they have no choice, that if they do nothing things will continue to escalate. What is next? "Muslims cannot use mass transit because some terrorists bombed mass transit"? What are all the Muslims who rely on mass transit to get to their perfectly peaceful, not terroristic jobs, going to do? Become unemployed in an economy that still hasn't quite recovered? Remain unemployed because they can't find any work they can get to without mass transit? Or lash out violently, because they decide that hey, if they're going to be seen to be a terrorist anyway, might as well be a terrorist because at least that way the other terrorists will be on their side.

Preventing ISIS fighters returning to Europe is not targeting oridinary muslims. I think that this step would help to combat terrorism a lot.

[Ostroeuropa]

For the middle east, learning about pre-islamic civilizations

Or more humane Islamic civilizations.

and secular heros

Like Atatürk? I could get behind that.

How else do we solve this problem?

I don't know, because I know that it's a very complicated problem that most likely can't be solved with broad strokes.

That's fair. I'm not convinced encouraging a moderate islam would work, but its worth a try. (Hasn't so far...)

[Liriena]

South and Southeast Asia say whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Indonesia and Malaysia have become way worse after their first independence leaders left office.

You can say what you want about Sukarno, but he knew how to run a nation. Those terrorists in Aceh don't... Also, for the record, some of the first 'terrorist' attacks committed against Europeans was in South-East Asia.

Regardless, my point stands: How are the people in that region "living in the Stone Age"?

[Vassenor]

They WANT people to make ordinary Muslims feel targetted. Any method of preventing terrorist attacks that also targets Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism is playing into their hands.

What would you rather have? Occasional terrorist attacks, or frequent terrorist attacks as ALL of the muslims living in a country begin to feel that they have no choice, that if they do nothing things will continue to escalate. What is next? "Muslims cannot use mass transit because some terrorists bombed mass transit"? What are all the Muslims who rely on mass transit to get to their perfectly peaceful, not terroristic jobs, going to do? Become unemployed in an economy that still hasn't quite recovered? Remain unemployed because they can't find any work they can get to without mass transit? Or lash out violently, because they decide that hey, if they're going to be seen to be a terrorist anyway, might as well be a terrorist because at least that way the other terrorists will be on their side.

Preventing ISIS fighters returning to Europe is not targeting oridinary muslims. I think that this step would help to combat terrorism a lot.

And how do you know who is a terrorist and who isn't?

[Kelinfort]

So, are you going to tell me Germans don't learn about Wagner, Frederick the Great, Goethe, Beethoven, Heisenberg, and others because of the Nazi's? The culture of Nazi Germany was full of xenophobia and nationalism, but it also had a strong support for so-called "natural" Germans, like the above.

The ideology of Nazism was eliminated. Not the culture.

What's the alternative. The Arab spring didn't fix shit, if anything it made it worse. Leaving them to decide their own government doesn't work.
Installing secular dictators doesn't work.
We need to attack the problem at its root.

I don't think the 1848 revolutions did much at the time, either, but it laid the groundwork for change within a decade or so.

[Ganos Lao]

I'm not hearing any alternative solutions to the problem frankly, which makes all the people acting hysterical over my suggestion seem silly to me. How else do we solve this problem?

People are "hysterical" because you're proposing a full scale military invasion of the Middle East to "de-Islamify the Middle East" (while not answering my questions about Christianity, etc, mind you) when it was clearly obvious the Iraq War was bad enough when it comes to deploying troops.

But since you want solutions, here's one:

- Put al-Maliki on trial for war crimes/crimes against humanity.
- Muzzle Saudi Arabia's government/religious bodies.
- Vote for someone half decent in the coming US elections.
- Start putting pressure on the Middle East's rulers to shape up or, quite frankly, fuck off. Enough is enough.
- Start thinking outside the box. No more leaping back and forth between far left/far right.
- Start dealing with radical Islamic preachers on the same exact level as Neo-Nazis, etc.
- Sanctions on Saudi Arabia. Stop giving them billions of money in aid.

And so on and so forth.

[Braberland]

Or more humane Islamic civilizations.


Like Atatürk? I could get behind that.


I don't know, because I know that it's a very complicated problem that most likely can't be solved with broad strokes.

That's fair. I'm not convinced encouraging a moderate islam would work, but its worth a try. (Hasn't so far...)

I could dig the less extreme forms of Islam practiced on Java, Borneo and most of Sumatra during late Dutch rule and under Sukarno. Religious but not extremist.

[Teemant]

But let me ask you. What is your solution? Are you okay with ISIS fighters coming back to Europe and planning new attacks?

Charging and prosecuting criminals to the full extent of the law, and not a millimetre further. My solution would not involve illegal actions by governments because they're the easy thing to do. Discourage people from going to Syria, arrest them if they have a real intent (as classified by the law and jurisprudence) and if they do go and come back, charge them with an appropriate crime. That's the legal way of going about things.

Putting terrorists to jail would help too when there is no way to stop them from coming back. But they definitely shouldn't be able to come back and act like nothing happened and remain free.