Brussels Terrorist Attack: ISIS Claims Responsibility

[Saint Jade IV]

Do they though? Or are they just being picked up more because there is a greater police focus on them as a result of political pressures? Or perhaps its that they are more likely to be charged, rather than let go with a warning? Or perhaps its when they get to court, judges are more likely to convict on criminal charges rather than lesser misdemeanour charges?

The numbers don't tell you shit quite frankly.

That's a good point, but given that we understand specific social factors can lead to crime (education, poverty, emotional trauma, whatever), and that these social factors apply largely to Moroccan immigrants more than they do the general Dutch population, I sincerely doubt that Moroccans commit the same amount of crimes as the general Dutch population. To assert so seems rather ridiculous to me.

Your assertion seems similarly ridiculous to me, without any evidence. You can hold all the opinion you want, but what matters is the facts. And we simply don't have enough facts to know whether Moroccans do commit more crimes than Dutch nationals, or whether the justice and police systems are predisposed to charge them more frequently, or whether they are simply picked up more often because of a greater focus, or a hundred other things, because nobody's really keen to look into policing practices, or judgements, and we don't have many studies in this area.

[YoriZ]

Do they though? Or are they just being picked up more because there is a greater police focus on them as a result of political pressures? Or perhaps its that they are more likely to be charged, rather than let go with a warning? Or perhaps its when they get to court, judges are more likely to convict on criminal charges rather than lesser misdemeanour charges?

The numbers don't tell you shit quite frankly.

That's a good point, but given that we understand specific social factors can lead to crime (education, poverty, emotional trauma, whatever), and that these social factors apply largely to Moroccan immigrants more than they do the general Dutch population, I sincerely doubt that Moroccans commit the same amount of crimes as the general Dutch population. To assert so seems rather ridiculous to me.

As if those Moroccans wouldn't be part of the general Dutch population. Most of them are Dutch nationals, wheter you like it or not.

[Liriena]

On a slightly different note, given that police raids are now in full swing, how long do we think before the Belgians have caught all suspects, and whether they avoid any fiasco's like after Paris.

Well, form what I just saw, two out of three suspects from the airport attack are dead, and local police is asking for help in identifying the third one.

And what will be done about lower Molenbeek, and other hotspots of crime and festering radicalisation?

Ideally, authorities would simultaneously try to crack down on crime and try improve the social and economic conditions in those areas. If I had to guess, however, I'd say it's more likely that only the former will ultimately be attempted, since a large and vocal segment of the public, accompanied by the European right-wing, will probably demand increasingly heavy-handed measures.

[Valaran]

On a slightly different note, given that police raids are now in full swing, how long do we think before the Belgians have caught all suspects, and whether they avoid any fiasco's like after Paris.

And what will be done about lower Molenbeek, and other hotspots of crime and festering radicalisation?

I think the suspects will be caught eventually. But hotspots of 'festering' radicalisation will not be dealt with. Political correctness makes sure that no body can criticise islam, or introduce any type of secular influences on people vulnerable to radicalism.

I'd have hoped for shorter than eventually - like in the 1-5 day range. There are clearly well funded and well organised cells still operational.

Do I assume correctly that you think the introduction of secular influences would be through education, or is there another method you had in mind?
And aside from that, will there be greater monitoring of potential radicalised persons there? Or general initiatives to tackle the 'regular' issues of poverty, crime and so forth?

[Robert Bork]

That's a good point, but given that we understand specific social factors can lead to crime (education, poverty, emotional trauma, whatever), and that these social factors apply largely to Moroccan immigrants more than they do the general Dutch population, I sincerely doubt that Moroccans commit the same amount of crimes as the general Dutch population. To assert so seems rather ridiculous to me.

Your assertion seems similarly ridiculous to me, without any evidence. You can hold all the opinion you want, but what matters is the facts. And we simply don't have enough facts to know whether Moroccans do commit more crimes than Dutch nationals, or whether the justice and police systems are predisposed to charge them more frequently, or whether they are simply picked up more often because of a greater focus, or a hundred other things, because nobody's really keen to look into policing practices, or judgements, and we don't have many studies in this area.

We have deductive reasoning.

Everybody knows that poverty and lack of education lead to crime. We can call of the known factors of crime "Y".

If Group A has more of Y than Group B, then consequently, they will have more crime.

Moroccans have more of Y than the general population of the Dutch.

Thus, they commit more crime.

[Saint Jade IV]

Do they though? Or are they just being picked up more because there is a greater police focus on them as a result of political pressures? Or perhaps its that they are more likely to be charged, rather than let go with a warning? Or perhaps its when they get to court, judges are more likely to convict on criminal charges rather than lesser misdemeanour charges?

The numbers don't tell you shit quite frankly.

They actually commit and get convicted vastly more often han their "peers"; where peers are people in similar situations (income etc). Turks otoh do quite well, so blaming Islam for this (which he often implies) seems incorrect.

They certainly by all accounts get convicted more frequently than other nationalities, but that by no means proves that they commit crimes at a greater rate than other nationalities. To determine that, you would need to eliminate police bias, court bias and a whole host of other factors.

[Robert Bork]

That's a good point, but given that we understand specific social factors can lead to crime (education, poverty, emotional trauma, whatever), and that these social factors apply largely to Moroccan immigrants more than they do the general Dutch population, I sincerely doubt that Moroccans commit the same amount of crimes as the general Dutch population. To assert so seems rather ridiculous to me.

As if those Moroccans wouldn't be part of the general Dutch population. Most of them are Dutch nationals, wheter you like it or not.

I'm talking about comparing a sample to the general population, not denying their nationality.

[The Alma Mater]

Sorry. What exactly is your question?

How does Geert Wilders get elected?

30 years of active government oppression on saying something negative about muslims. It is now alllll coming out, and therefor pours.
It will pass.

[Robert Bork]

Sorry. What exactly is your question?

How does Geert Wilders get elected?

I don't know, and I don't care. But anybody who gets anywhere politically most likely used a little emotion to get there.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Why is this sounding like Trump retweeting neo nazi stuff?

Maybe you have an ear infection.

Sorry, why is this looking like Trump retweeting neo nazi stuff?

The only adorable thing i see in your post is your super cute flag.

Btw, I think you are awesome.

Awwww, thanks

You just got in my quote book.

[Suyalia]

What a horrible attack the people of Brussels didn't deserve this

I wish terrorism didn't exist...

[Valaran]

Don't know about you, but they seem pretty effective at PR. AQ's hostility is the result of them being supplanted by IS, not bad PR.

True, envy is a factor, but so is theology, and that same theological problem has alienated ISIS from the widespread Islamic community. Thus, I sincerely doubt that addressing the problem of Moroccan immigration is going to cause a bunch of people to join ISIS all the sudden.

I know what you're getting at at, but I don't mean envy as much as AQ's funding and recruitment is being intruded on by IS - more like market share than emotional reasons.

Perhaps IS doesn't care about the wider islamic community though, so they haven't attempted PR geared at those segments - and in fact, nor did AQ, so the mutual hostility there means little anyway. Where they have attempted PR, though, it has been successful, considering the flood of recruits and funding they have had, as well as who they have inspired and funded themselves. By those metrics, they have been successful.

[Robert Bork]

Sorry, why is this looking like Trump retweeting neo nazi stuff?

Because you have a cataract.

[Saint Jade IV]

Your assertion seems similarly ridiculous to me, without any evidence. You can hold all the opinion you want, but what matters is the facts. And we simply don't have enough facts to know whether Moroccans do commit more crimes than Dutch nationals, or whether the justice and police systems are predisposed to charge them more frequently, or whether they are simply picked up more often because of a greater focus, or a hundred other things, because nobody's really keen to look into policing practices, or judgements, and we don't have many studies in this area.

We have deductive reasoning.

Everybody knows that poverty and lack of education lead to crime. We can call of the known factors of crime "Y".

If Group A has more of Y than Group B, then consequently, they will have more crime.

Moroccans have more of Y than the general population of the Dutch.

Thus, they commit more crime.

Poverty and lack of education lead to a greater likelihood of being convicted of a crime. Your whole premise has a false basis. Try again.

[Robert Bork]

We have deductive reasoning.

Everybody knows that poverty and lack of education lead to crime. We can call of the known factors of crime "Y".

If Group A has more of Y than Group B, then consequently, they will have more crime.

Moroccans have more of Y than the general population of the Dutch.

Thus, they commit more crime.

Poverty and lack of education lead to a greater likelihood of being convicted of a crime. Your whole premise has a false basis. Try again.

Doesn't matter. The reasoning still works, concluding with "Moroccans are more likely to commit crime than the general population".

[Valaran]

On a slightly different note, given that police raids are now in full swing, how long do we think before the Belgians have caught all suspects, and whether they avoid any fiasco's like after Paris.

Well, form what I just saw, two out of three suspects from the airport attack are dead, and local police is asking for help in identifying the third one.

And the wider cell though? If the hypothesis that this attack was stepped up in response to the Paris suspect finally being caught, it could further indicate the existence of more interconnected cells.

Ideally, authorities would simultaneously try to crack down on crime and try improve the social and economic conditions in those areas. If I had to guess, however, I'd say it's more likely that only the former will ultimately be attempted, since a large and vocal segment of the public, accompanied by the European right-wing, will probably demand increasingly heavy-handed measures.

One imagines so, sadly, and I'd add a lack of resources to the issue. I should check up on Belgian political responses.

[Shaggy Dog Story]

We have deductive reasoning.

Everybody knows that poverty and lack of education lead to crime. We can call of the known factors of crime "Y".

If Group A has more of Y than Group B, then consequently, they will have more crime.

Moroccans have more of Y than the general population of the Dutch.

Thus, they commit more crime.

Poverty and lack of education lead to a greater likelihood of being convicted of a crime. Your whole premise has a false basis. Try again.

There are statistical studies that do indicate that poverty is a leading factor in considering whether one will commit a crime, be convicted of a crime, and also importantly, be victimized by a crime.

Factor poverty out of the equation and there is no racial, ethnic, or religious "propensity" towards crime.

[Valaran]

Poverty and lack of education lead to a greater likelihood of being convicted of a crime. Your whole premise has a false basis. Try again.

There are statistical studies that do indicate that poverty is a leading factor in considering whether one will commit a crime, be convicted of a crime, and also importantly, be victimized by a crime.

Factor poverty out of the equation and there is no racial, ethnic, or religious "propensity" towards crime.

I'd perhaps also add then, that there is nothing inherently problematic with Moroccan immigration, therefore, if poverty can be reduced. Which supports a view of economic policy geared to migrants, and some degree of assimilation.

[Kriga]

I think the suspects will be caught eventually. But hotspots of 'festering' radicalisation will not be dealt with. Political correctness makes sure that no body can criticise islam, or introduce any type of secular influences on people vulnerable to radicalism.

I'd have hoped for shorter than eventually - like in the 1-5 day range. There are clearly well funded and well organised cells still operational.

Do I assume correctly that you think the introduction of secular influences would be through education, or is there another method you had in mind?
And aside from that, will there be greater monitoring of potential radicalised persons there? Or general initiatives to tackle the 'regular' issues of poverty, crime and so forth?

Education is the key to tackling radical extremists. With secularism, we can break the boundaries of traditional influence and create an evolution in the way people from religious backgrounds see life. That does mean we should outright condemn and destroy religion. Religion has its uses, however old it has become. But, still, if we are going to progress as a species, man must evolve. For years, politicians, dictators, bigots and racists have asserted that force will change things. But it does not.

The Fascists in Germany tried force, the Communists in Russia tried force. It all failed. Force has shown time and time again that it does not work. Education and enlightenment are what we must use to ensure that attacks on Europe and the rest of the world, by religious groups that seek to take us back to the dark ages, do not happen again.

In that case, i do believe that education is the way forward.

[Gauthier]

Poverty and lack of education lead to a greater likelihood of being convicted of a crime. Your whole premise has a false basis. Try again.

There are statistical studies that do indicate that poverty is a leading factor in considering whether one will commit a crime, be convicted of a crime, and also importantly, be victimized by a crime.

Factor poverty out of the equation and there is no racial, ethnic, or religious "propensity" towards crime.

And also the likelihood of people turning to radicalization as an escape or chance at mobility.

[Valaran]

I'd have hoped for shorter than eventually - like in the 1-5 day range. There are clearly well funded and well organised cells still operational.

Do I assume correctly that you think the introduction of secular influences would be through education, or is there another method you had in mind?
And aside from that, will there be greater monitoring of potential radicalised persons there? Or general initiatives to tackle the 'regular' issues of poverty, crime and so forth?

Education is the key to tackling radical extremists. With secularism, we can break the boundaries of traditional influence and create an evolution in the way people from religious backgrounds see life. That does mean we should outright condemn and destroy religion. Religion has its uses, however old it has become. But, still, if we are going to progress as a species, man must evolve. For years, politicians, dictators, bigots and racists have asserted that force will change things. But it does not.

The Fascists in Germany tried force, the Communists in Russia tried force. It all failed. Force has shown time and time again that it does not work. Education and enlightenment are what we must use to ensure that attacks on Europe and the rest of the world, by religious groups that seek to take us back to the dark ages, do not happen again.

In that case, i do believe that education is the way forward.

What about faith schools then? A plethora of Madrasa's could 'lock in' religious views, so to speak. Similarly, whatever one teaches at school, attitudes at home could still instil certain non-secular values, for instance. Let alone the segregation issues limiting exposure. And finally, education is fine, but it has to be good education, which is not guaranteed, espcially in economically deprived areas. I strongly agree with you that education is the right way, but I worry that it is harder to implement than assumed.

[Mugrul]

How does Geert Wilders get elected?

I don't know, and I don't care. But anybody who gets anywhere politically most likely used a little emotion to get there.

You aren't familiar with Geert Wilders' party platform and reliance on rhetoric then.

[Iwassoclose]

Like I said previously a couple weeks ago. This is the new norm.

[Braberland]

I don't know, and I don't care. But anybody who gets anywhere politically most likely used a little emotion to get there.

You aren't familiar with Geert Wilders' party platform and reliance on rhetoric then.

Geert Wilders' party actually has a pretty good manifesto compared to that of the imbeciles in the Dutch Labour Party, GreenLeft etc.
I don't like his economic policies though

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Sorry, why is this looking like Trump retweeting neo nazi stuff?

Because you have a cataract.

No.

It just looks too much like Trump retweeting 'X group causes Y% crime'

And then everyone goes 'No.'