Social isolation, healthcare, and entitlements

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

If a program for escaping crippling loneliness existed, I think most people would report their loneliness in the hope of escape, much as is the case with economic welfare. Suffering is subjective, so anyone who is suffering should be aware of their suffering.

How could it increase isolation?

So, anyone who reports suffering will report in, and therefore we will treat EVERYONE who comes in saying they are suffering? Unlike economic welfare where we can look at finite numbers to help determine whether to provide aid (which costs money), how can we accurately rate "loneliness"? Asking the individual to rate it 1-10 would be pointless, since that is entirely subjective and everyone view what the extremes are differently.
It is also unfeasible to treat EVERYONE who has suffering, for if you don't ever have any suffering or sadness, that itself is a mental disorder (one of the more known ones of that ilk is called Mania). Up and downs are normal in each human, and can be expected. In more severe cases such as Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Major Depression etc...Many current insurance programs and/or government healthcare actually ALREADY cover therapy and medication for solving these issues.

Lastly....How can we treat loneliness and/or minor isolation? Realistically, we will be assuming these people will already living and regularly interacting with other people, and simply don't have any friends. Is it really feasible to attempt to create and fund (again, funding is a major issue) a program to find friends? How will we find individuals to be willing to be friends, and how can we find good accurate matches?

Ultimately...Again, we can't realistically fix it.

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

Forgot to address the thing about "increasing isolationism", the example about suicide was more to point out how programs, especially relating to mental issues, can have unexpected and initially nonsensical effects. From my personal perspective, I viewed it creating more isolationism via the placebo affect, making people believe they are isolated (when they aren't really), and begin suffering the same symptoms of individuals who ARE.

[United Marxist Nations]

If a program for escaping crippling loneliness existed, I think most people would report their loneliness in the hope of escape, much as is the case with economic welfare. Suffering is subjective, so anyone who is suffering should be aware of their suffering.

How could it increase isolation?

So, anyone who reports suffering will report in, and therefore we will treat EVERYONE who comes in saying they are suffering? Unlike economic welfare where we can look at finite numbers to help determine whether to provide aid (which costs money), how can we accurately rate "loneliness"? Asking the individual to rate it 1-10 would be pointless, since that is entirely subjective and everyone view what the extremes are differently.
It is also unfeasible to treat EVERYONE who has suffering, for if you don't ever have any suffering or sadness, that itself is a mental disorder (one of the more known ones of that ilk is called Mania). Up and downs are normal in each human, and can be expected. In more severe cases such as Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Major Depression etc...Many current insurance programs and/or government healthcare actually ALREADY cover therapy and medication for solving these issues.

Lastly....How can we treat loneliness and/or minor isolation? Realistically, we will be assuming these people will already living and regularly interacting with other people, and simply don't have any friends. Is it really feasible to attempt to create and fund (again, funding is a major issue) a program to find friends? How will we find individuals to be willing to be friends, and how can we find good accurate matches?

Ultimately...Again, we can't realistically fix it.

Undoubtedly, such a program would require psychologists, and thus we would be able to determine mental illnesses. But, part of my point is that these mental disorders cause more issues because of the issue of isolation (and, indeed, isolation can cause such disorders), so alleviating the loneliness would greatly reduce the issues related to the mental disorders.

Presumably, as with most mental disorder diagnostics, a minimum period of such continuing would generally mean it isn't just a down time.

[Esternial]

Ultimately...Again, we can't realistically fix it.

That depends. It's not something I believe you can just throw money at. Don't think the government can really do a lot.

It's the people themselves that need to change things. We live in an age of unparalleled connection between other human beings yet somehow many of us feel so alone and isolated. A change in mentality might already go a far way.

[United Marxist Nations]

Ultimately...Again, we can't realistically fix it.

That depends. It's not something I believe you can just throw money at. Don't think the government can really do a lot.

It's the people themselves that need to change things. We live in an age of unparalleled connection between other human beings yet somehow many of us feel so alone and isolated. A change in mentality might already go a far way.

How do you make that happen though? And what of those of us who are isolated due to mental illness?

[Geilinor]

That depends. It's not something I believe you can just throw money at. Don't think the government can really do a lot.

It's the people themselves that need to change things. We live in an age of unparalleled connection between other human beings yet somehow many of us feel so alone and isolated. A change in mentality might already go a far way.

How do you make that happen though? And what of those of us who are isolated due to mental illness?

There are treatments and medications that can help people with mental illness.

[United Marxist Nations]

How do you make that happen though? And what of those of us who are isolated due to mental illness?

There are treatments and medications that can help people with mental illness.

They might help some, but many of them are reliant on early intervention and many just aren't very effective. It is inevitable that some will slip through the cracks.

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

Undoubtedly, such a program would require psychologists, and thus we would be able to determine mental illnesses. But, part of my point is that these mental disorders cause more issues because of the issue of isolation (and, indeed, isolation can cause such disorders), so alleviating the loneliness would greatly reduce the issues related to the mental disorders.

Presumably, as with most mental disorder diagnostics, a minimum period of such continuing would generally mean it isn't just a down time.

Well, as I said earlier, many healthcare programs, including government ones (assuming Europe, Canada, some far eastern (and maaaybe US?) in this generalization), already cover the costs of therapy and prescriptions for mental disorders, and this fact is woefully unknown to the public. However, while loneliness is a factor to mental disorders, MANY times you can also attribute it as a symptom FROM existing mental disorders, and even more commonly attribute it to no mental disorder. It is perfectly fine and healthy not to always be happy, and it is fine to sometimes be lonely. As long as a singular emotion isn't chronic, it probably isn't a problem.

Yes, if no one felt chronically lonely it will reduce mental disorders, but HOW can we achieve that? It is just implausible to form a comprehensive plan to solve that issue, and as an above post mentioned, it would realistically rely on the individual themselves solving and/or confronting it rather than any outside action.

[Chestaan]

Ultimately...Again, we can't realistically fix it.

That depends. It's not something I believe you can just throw money at. Don't think the government can really do a lot.

It's the people themselves that need to change things. We live in an age of unparalleled connection between other human beings yet somehow many of us feel so alone and isolated. A change in mentality might already go a far way.

I think social skills and mental health awareness should be taught in schools. That could go a long way to creating the correct mentality in people.

[United Marxist Nations]

Undoubtedly, such a program would require psychologists, and thus we would be able to determine mental illnesses. But, part of my point is that these mental disorders cause more issues because of the issue of isolation (and, indeed, isolation can cause such disorders), so alleviating the loneliness would greatly reduce the issues related to the mental disorders.

Presumably, as with most mental disorder diagnostics, a minimum period of such continuing would generally mean it isn't just a down time.

Well, as I said earlier, many healthcare programs, including government ones (assuming Europe, Canada, some far eastern (and maaaybe US?) in this generalization), already cover the costs of therapy and prescriptions for mental disorders, and this fact is woefully unknown to the public. However, while loneliness is a factor to mental disorders, MANY times you can also attribute it as a symptom FROM existing mental disorders, and even more commonly attribute it to no mental disorder. It is perfectly fine and healthy not to always be happy, and it is fine to sometimes be lonely. As long as a singular emotion isn't chronic, it probably isn't a problem.

Yes, if no one felt chronically lonely it will reduce mental disorders, but HOW can we achieve that? It is just implausible to form a comprehensive plan to solve that issue, and as an above post mentioned, it would realistically rely on the individual themselves solving and/or confronting it rather than any outside action.

Not all therapies are effective, as discussed above.

Many people suffering from loneliness lack the faculties to confront it on their own, which is why there must be something to help them do so.

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

I think social skills and mental health awareness should be taught in schools. That could go a long way to creating the correct mentality in people.

Sorry if I sound like an arse in this one, but I dislike schools teaching "social skills". I have no idea with the concept, but just from personal experience as well as agreement from my friends (Not going to be able to cite any official studies for this one), schools pretty much cater towards extroverts instead of introverts. I still remember getting in trouble for reading during a snack break instead of socializing during elementary, and I don't suffer from any isolation issues.

Strong introverts exist too (Roughly 30-50% of the population), and too many school programs when they talk about "socializing", ONLY address it from the point of view of an extrovert. It ends up being frustrating and annoying for those do like alone time, and dislike talking to people they hardly know about topics they care little about.


And, apologies in advance if this wasn't at all what you meant~ This specific topic is just something I enjoy ranting about WAY too much

[Chestaan]

I think social skills and mental health awareness should be taught in schools. That could go a long way to creating the correct mentality in people.

Sorry if I sound like an arse in this one, but I dislike schools teaching "social skills". I have no idea with the concept, but just from personal experience as well as agreement from my friends (Not going to be able to cite any official studies for this one), schools pretty much cater towards extroverts instead of introverts. I still remember getting in trouble for reading during a snack break instead of socializing during elementary, and I don't suffer from any isolation issues.

Strong introverts exist too (Roughly 30-50% of the population), and too many school programs when they talk about "socializing", ONLY address it from the point of view of an extrovert. It ends up being frustrating and annoying for those do like alone time, and dislike talking to people they hardly know about topics they care little about.

Don't worry, you don't come across as an arse at all. I guess an effective "social skills" class, that caters to both introverts and extroverts would be of benefit. But of course it's success would hugely depend on the content.

And, apologies in advance if this wasn't at all what you meant~ This specific topic is just something I enjoy ranting about WAY too much

[Aequitatia]

I don't know about other countries so I'm only speaking for the United Kingdom here. I have suffered from social anxiety disorder and as such spent long periods in isolation while I received therapy, I was repeatedly offered the chance for social workers to visit me on a regular basis and chat over a cup of tea and things of that nature. I declined, partly because my anxiety was so bad I could not face having guests (even if they were paid to be there), but I'm sure this facility probably helps a lot of people who are lacking in social inclusion including elderly people.

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

Not all therapies are effective, as discussed above.

Many people suffering from loneliness lack the faculties to confront it on their own, which is why there must be something to help them do so.

Alright...Except again, how?

All you say is "This is a problem, we need to fix it", and then don't give any solutions. I wholeheartedly agree that if we can detect and fix all mental problems, there will be no mental problems. However, it simply isn't feasible. We can't just alleviate loneliness, for it is entirely too complex to do it.

And face it...If the individual can't fix it, therapies can't fix, and if medication can't fix it, it can't be fixed. Right now, those are the only viable solution known to us. And unfortunately, those people won't have any miracle cure to make them happy. The best POSSIBLE solution is a recent experiment involving a surgery that allows you to remotely stimulate certain sections of the brain to produce emotion, but this as only been done on ONE person, is incredibly expensive ($$$ issue again), and from a sample size of one, can't really determine what it's effectiveness is.

[United Marxist Nations]

Not all therapies are effective, as discussed above.

Many people suffering from loneliness lack the faculties to confront it on their own, which is why there must be something to help them do so.

Alright...Except again, how?

All you say is "This is a problem, we need to fix it", and then don't give any solutions. I wholeheartedly agree that if we can detect and fix all mental problems, there will be no mental problems. However, it simply isn't feasible. We can't just alleviate loneliness, for it is entirely too complex to do it.

And face it...If the individual can't fix it, therapies can't fix, and if medication can't fix it, it can't be fixed. Right now, those are the only viable solution known to us. And unfortunately, those people won't have any miracle cure to make them happy. The best POSSIBLE solution is a recent experiment involving a surgery that allows you to remotely stimulate certain sections of the brain to produce emotion, but this as only been done on ONE person, is incredibly expensive ($$$ issue again), and from a sample size of one, can't really determine what it's effectiveness is.

I don't think the best solution is to trick people into enjoying their lives when their lives are not meeting their goals, but to provide some degree of experience in socializing, dating, etc. so that people will be able to build greater confidence.

[USS Donald Trump]

If you won't work, you don't need healthcare. End of story.

If you need work, consider TRUMP Shipyards.

[Esternial]

That depends. It's not something I believe you can just throw money at. Don't think the government can really do a lot.

It's the people themselves that need to change things. We live in an age of unparalleled connection between other human beings yet somehow many of us feel so alone and isolated. A change in mentality might already go a far way.

How do you make that happen though? And what of those of us who are isolated due to mental illness?

As someone speaking from experience, I certainly agree that a change in mentality is hard when you're too tired to even go out the door. Ultimately some of the responsibility also lies with the people themselves - I myself am to blame for not doing more. It's nobody else's responsibility to look out for me, and if there were some governmental mental health programme I wouldn't turn up...though that might just be me.

So far I've just gotten medication, which I've stopped taking after things improved. Though frankly I feel it might not be a bad idea to start taking them again. Talking to a complete stranger is scary, to myself and - I can imagine - to other people like me as well, especially when you're used to factoring out/ignore your own feelings because you're incapable of dealing with them or don't understand them.

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

I don't think the best solution is to trick people into enjoying their lives when their lives are not meeting their goals, but to provide some degree of experience in socializing, dating, etc. so that people will be able to build greater confidence.

Two things, how is therapy "tricking" people? It is meant to act as a social help to allow patients to get through their problems, and provide assistance. It deals with genuine emotions, and if you (Using "you" in a general sense, i.e. any individual person) are feeling "tricked" by therapy...You PROBABLY should see a different therapist, something the therapist SHOULD recommend also(And I think might be legally obligated to recommend that as well...),

Secondly again....How? How could you provide "experience in socializing, dating, etc", and how will it effect their confidence?

[United Marxist Nations]

I don't think the best solution is to trick people into enjoying their lives when their lives are not meeting their goals, but to provide some degree of experience in socializing, dating, etc. so that people will be able to build greater confidence.

Two things, how is therapy "tricking" people? It is meant to act as a social help to allow patients to get through their problems, and provide assistance. It deals with genuine emotions, and if you (Using "you" in a general sense, i.e. any individual person) are feeling "tricked" by therapy...You PROBABLY should see a different therapist, something the therapist SHOULD recommend also(And I think might be legally obligated to recommend that as well...),

Secondly again....How? How could you provide "experience in socializing, dating, etc", and how will it effect their confidence?

I mean, remotely stimulating parts of the brain is tricking people.

By providing a social circle.

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

I mean, remotely stimulating parts of the brain is tricking people.

By providing a social circle.

1. The remotely stimulating parts of the brain was done on an old women who suffered chronic depression her whole life, also who doctors believe had a brain medically INCAPABLE of being happy. Then during the surgery, she laughed, which she said was the first time she remembered doing it in over 30 years. It wasn't tricking a brain, it was allowing someone who was miserable and wanted to be dead their entire lives feel the same happiness most people can receive on the average day. It is no more "tricking" than drugs that alter the hormones to change your feelings.

And secondly... "By providing a social circle" How will you do that? Where will you find the individuals to pair them up and ensure all participant's personalities will work together, and how will you finance that aid, and how will you discriminate who does and doesn't receive treatment?

[United Marxist Nations]

I mean, remotely stimulating parts of the brain is tricking people.

By providing a social circle.

1. The remotely stimulating parts of the brain was done on an old women who suffered chronic depression her whole life, also who doctors believe had a brain medically INCAPABLE of being happy. Then during the surgery, she laughed, which she said was the first time she remembered doing it in over 30 years. It wasn't tricking a brain, it was allowing someone who was miserable and wanted to be dead their entire lives feel the same happiness most people can receive on the average day. It is no more "tricking" than drugs that alter the hormones to change your feelings.

And secondly... "By providing a social circle" How will you do that? Where will you find the individuals to pair them up and ensure all participant's personalities will work together, and how will you finance that aid, and how will you discriminate who does and doesn't receive treatment?

Couldn't you make someone in a Death Camp feel happy by that method? That is what I mean, all it does is make someone feel happy in their situation instead of actually helping the situation, even if they want out of the situation.

You could do a questionnaire for determining temperament, have volunteers (like community service). If someone is not actually isolated, then they should be referred to regular mental health screening to determine what their actual problem is.

[Chestaan]

1. The remotely stimulating parts of the brain was done on an old women who suffered chronic depression her whole life, also who doctors believe had a brain medically INCAPABLE of being happy. Then during the surgery, she laughed, which she said was the first time she remembered doing it in over 30 years. It wasn't tricking a brain, it was allowing someone who was miserable and wanted to be dead their entire lives feel the same happiness most people can receive on the average day. It is no more "tricking" than drugs that alter the hormones to change your feelings.

And secondly... "By providing a social circle" How will you do that? Where will you find the individuals to pair them up and ensure all participant's personalities will work together, and how will you finance that aid, and how will you discriminate who does and doesn't receive treatment?

Couldn't you make someone in a Death Camp feel happy by that method? That is what I mean, all it does is make someone feel happy in their situation instead of actually helping the situation, even if they want out of the situation.

You could do a questionnaire for determining temperament, have volunteers (like community service). If someone is not actually isolated, then they should be referred to regular mental health screening to determine what their actual problem is.

But quite often the unhappiness is not caused by any specific external problem, but by a mental illness. The problem isn't that a person has no friends, is lonely etc. it's that a certain part of their brain isn't working as it should.

[Emerald Ilses Empire]

Couldn't you make someone in a Death Camp feel happy by that method? That is what I mean, all it does is make someone feel happy in their situation instead of actually helping the situation, even if they want out of the situation.

You could do a questionnaire for determining temperament, have volunteers (like community service). If someone is not actually isolated, then they should be referred to regular mental health screening to determine what their actual problem is.

Yes...You could....But it is still real emotion. It also could be the FIRST viable solution for individuals who might have brains making them medically incapable of being happy. You can cure diseases in death camps, you can also have children born in death camps, you can also throw drunken parties and rock concerts at death camps. It isn't really a weighted nor useful analogy when you use it in that context.

Questionnaires fall prey to individual bias (and doesn't protect against the placebo effect), and can you really train volunteers what it takes years for students to learn in college on psychology? Those are both inaccurate methods of screening. And it still doesn't answer where you are going to conjure the "friends" from.

Sorry if I am sounding like a jerk at all, since you really do mean well. What you are arguing though just isn't plausible.

[United Marxist Nations]

Couldn't you make someone in a Death Camp feel happy by that method? That is what I mean, all it does is make someone feel happy in their situation instead of actually helping the situation, even if they want out of the situation.

You could do a questionnaire for determining temperament, have volunteers (like community service). If someone is not actually isolated, then they should be referred to regular mental health screening to determine what their actual problem is.

But quite often the unhappiness is not caused by any specific external problem, but by a mental illness. The problem isn't that a person has no friends, is lonely etc. it's that a certain part of their brain isn't working as it should.

But we are talking about the effects of social isolation, not depression. So, in this, we are discussing depression as a result of social isolation.

[United Marxist Nations]

Couldn't you make someone in a Death Camp feel happy by that method? That is what I mean, all it does is make someone feel happy in their situation instead of actually helping the situation, even if they want out of the situation.

You could do a questionnaire for determining temperament, have volunteers (like community service). If someone is not actually isolated, then they should be referred to regular mental health screening to determine what their actual problem is.

Yes...You could....But it is still real emotion. It also could be the FIRST viable solution for individuals who might have brains making them medically incapable of being happy. You can cure diseases in death camps, you can also have children born in death camps, you can also throw drunken parties and rock concerts at death camps. It isn't really a weighted nor useful analogy when you use it in that context.

Questionnaires fall prey to individual bias (and doesn't protect against the placebo effect), and can you really train volunteers what it takes years for students to learn in college on psychology? Those are both inaccurate methods of screening. And it still doesn't answer where you are going to conjure the "friends" from.

Sorry if I am sounding like a jerk at all, since you really do mean well. What you are arguing though just isn't plausible.

I think I was unclear, and I apologize, the volunteers would be the friends.