Breivik: The Moral Dilemma

[Ostroeuropa]

You seem keen to prove Brevik right about violent islamists.

If he was right every single Norwegian Muslim in the country would be in prison.

Most? No no.
Disproportionately? Yeh.

UK:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22237.html

France:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... isons.html

Norway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... rway#Crime

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_ ... e_dynamics
(1/3rd of prisoners are foreigners.)

I'm sure it's a coincidence.

"Why are arab muslims not integrating into society?"

"Its societies fault!"

-Rinse repeat for:
Germany
France
Sweden
The united kingdom
Denmark
The netherlands
Australia
India
Russia
China
etc etc.

All with different types of policies, all with different approaches. None work.

Blaming the host countries strains credulity. It's them. They are the problem.

Occams razor guys, come on.

Whining about how it's western society just picking on them and such when it's also Russia, China, and India who have problems with them misses the point. It could just be their culture is violent and regressive, and they're the problem.

What's more likely, every single society and culture on earth is a problem except one, or just one? What's a more racist stance?

[Migaletia]

People do not realize he's plain mocking the culturally marxist system that treats the (mostly immigrant)murderers/rapists/thieves as luxury hosts. He's not really whining the way he was treated, he's exposing what a pussy the system is at dealing with it's trash. Breivik is the ultimate expression on all that's wrong with the criminal system up north

[Vassenor]

If he was right every single Norwegian Muslim in the country would be in prison.

Most? No no.
Disproportionately? Yeh.

UK:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22237.html

France:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... isons.html

Norway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... rway#Crime

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_ ... e_dynamics
(1/3rd of prisoners are foreigners.)

I'm sure it's a coincidence.

"Why are arab muslims not integrating into society?"

"Its societies fault!"

-Rinse repeat for:
Germany
France
Sweden
The united kingdom
Denmark
The netherlands
Australia
India
Russia
etc etc.

All with different types of policies, all with different approaches. None work.

Blaming the host countries strains credulity. It's them. They are the problem.

Occams razor guys, come on.

Because it's not like they might be disproportionately targeted by the police or anything.

Unless you're trying to suggest that most crime is the fault of black people because they're the most disproportionately overrepresented group in prison.

[Ostroeuropa]

Most? No no.
Disproportionately? Yeh.

UK:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22237.html

France:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... isons.html

Norway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... rway#Crime

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_ ... e_dynamics
(1/3rd of prisoners are foreigners.)

I'm sure it's a coincidence.

Because it's not like they might be disproportionately targeted by the police or anything.

Unless you're trying to suggest that most crime is the fault of black people because they're the most disproportionately overrepresented group in prison.

Disproportionately targeted by police in every single society they are a part of, regardless of history, culture, poverty rates, or liberal politics, including their own societies, despite the fact that we've had international scandals about our police actively NOT targeting them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham ... on_scandal

Yeh. Sure.

Or, it could be that they have a regressive culture that leads them to behaving poorly in greater numbers, which is preserved by their religion.


Are football hooligans disproportionately targetted too, or do you think maybe their attitude might play a part there all of a sudden?

Anyway, the point I was making, is that Gauthier seems to be implying that muslims would jump at the chance to knife brevik instead of.
You know.
The rule of law and shit.

[Vassenor]

Because it's not like British police services have spent the last quarter of a century being accused of institutionalised racism or anything.

Oh wait.

[Talvezout]

You should release him.

Why? He was tried and convicted of his crimes, and he is serving the sentence handed to him.

IIRC, the way how the Norwegian prison sentencing works is that they can add 5 years onto the sentencing, after each period or something like that.

I'm probably wrong though.

---

In all honesty though, I really don't see how he's being a genius. If anything, he's being whiny.

[Vassenor]

Why? He was tried and convicted of his crimes, and he is serving the sentence handed to him.

IIRC, the way how the Norwegian prison sentencing works is that they can add 5 years onto the sentencing, after each period or something like that.

I'm probably wrong though.

---

In all honesty though, I really don't see how he's being a genius. If anything, he's being whiny.

At the end of the 21 year period, it can be extended in 5 year increments if it is still felt the offender poses a risk to society.

[Transoxthraxia]

lol "evil genius" lmfao

[The Alma Mater]

Because it's not like British police services have spent the last quarter of a century being accused of institutionalised racism or anything.

Oh wait.

Does it help if one points out that the criminals themselves are quite open about their motives - and that "I am a muslim" features heavily in that ?

[Transoxthraxia]

Because it's not like British police services have spent the last quarter of a century being accused of institutionalised racism or anything.

Oh wait.

Does it help if one points out that the criminals themselves are quite open about their motives - and that "I am a muslim" features heavily in that ?

Careful, speaking ill of those people is a bannable offense.

[New Tuva SSR]

Thread/OP Update.

[Risottia]

Because it's not like British police services have spent the last quarter of a century being accused of institutionalised racism or anything.

Oh wait.

Well, considering how it's the same police which executed a Brazilian on the spot for the heinous crime of breathing while not white-skinned...

[Senkaku]

Because it's not like British police services have spent the last quarter of a century being accused of institutionalised racism or anything.

Oh wait.

Does it help if one points out that the criminals themselves are quite open about their motives - and that "I am a muslim" features heavily in that ?

And therefore, all Muslims are criminals!

oh wait, that makes no sense

Or, it could be that they have a regressive culture that leads them to behaving poorly in greater numbers, which is preserved by their religion.

Tell me, what does "regressive culture" mean? How is it preserved by their religion? Are the two things one and the same? Is this basically a rehashing of the whole non-Westerners aren't properly civilized and must be forced to adopt civilized Western ways, or else remain forever as dangerous and uncivilized savages? Because that's what it sounds like.

[Gauthier]

Or, it could be that they have a regressive culture that leads them to behaving poorly in greater numbers, which is preserved by their religion.

Tell me, what does "regressive culture" mean? How is it preserved by their religion? Are the two things one and the same? Is this basically a rehashing of the whole non-Westerners aren't properly civilized and must be forced to adopt civilized Western ways, or else remain forever as dangerous and uncivilized savages? Because that's what it sounds like.

The way he gripes about Muslims you'd swear they were the most progressive and feminist religion in the world.

[Constant Death Wish]

Why? He was tried and convicted of his crimes, and he is serving the sentence handed to him.

IIRC, the way how the Norwegian prison sentencing works is that they can add 5 years onto the sentencing, after each period or something like that.

I'm probably wrong though.

---

In all honesty though, I really don't see how he's being a genius. If anything, he's being whiny.

You're not wrong. The max is 21, and when those have run out, they will have new trial that he will most likely lose, and then he will be put in jail for the next 21 years.

[Dahon]

People do not realize he's plain mocking the culturally marxist system that treats the (mostly immigrant)murderers/rapists/thieves as luxury hosts. He's not really whining the way he was treated, he's exposing what a pussy the system is at dealing with it's trash. Breivik is the ultimate expression on all that's wrong with the criminal system up north

Nobody cares about recidivism rates, only liquidations with extreme fucking prejudice, to be meted out to all prisoners regardless of the crime committed.

[Risottia]

People do not realize he's plain mocking the culturally marxist system that treats the (mostly immigrant)murderers/rapists/thieves as luxury hosts. He's not really whining the way he was treated, he's exposing what a pussy the system is at dealing with it's trash. Breivik is the ultimate expression on all that's wrong with the criminal system up north

Nobody cares about recidivism rates, only liquidations with extreme fucking prejudice, to be meted out to all prisoners regardless of the crime committed.

[Lynerida]

Does that mean we can treat him inhumanely and maintain the moral high-ground?

With a piece of shit like this, I don't believe it's actually possible to lose the moral high ground.

I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but it's not his punishment that I take issue with. I accept that his sentence is only technically 21 years, since he'll almost certainly be in prison for the rest of his life. I can grudgingly tolerate the fact that he has a TV, gaming system, and far more room than he needs. But that this waste of matter has the audacity to claim that this all constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, when on any other continent he'd more likely than not be dead by now, and otherwise be wishing he was? That is what really gets me. So fuck him. Let's show him some real cruel and unusual punishment. He thinks that's bad? Give him forty square feet. Give him bread and water twice a day. Make his only human contact a guard coming in to bash in his smug fucking face. Then let's see if he complains about not having his fucking Playstation 3.

I don't fucking know. I know I'm not being rational right now. I know that I hate this stain more than anything else in the fucking world right now. I know I want to smash his fucking skull open. I know I hate you right now for making me even consider that it's not right to treat this mass-murdering scumbag like a piece of subhuman trash, and I know I hate myself a little bit right now for using that word.

Fuck this. I'm going to sleep. Have a fantastic fucking night.

When keeping it real... goes wrong

[PaNTuXIa]

He may be bad, that doesn't mean he's not human.

[Ostroeuropa]

Does it help if one points out that the criminals themselves are quite open about their motives - and that "I am a muslim" features heavily in that ?

And therefore, all Muslims are criminals!

oh wait, that makes no sense

Or, it could be that they have a regressive culture that leads them to behaving poorly in greater numbers, which is preserved by their religion.

Tell me, what does "regressive culture" mean? How is it preserved by their religion? Are the two things one and the same? Is this basically a rehashing of the whole non-Westerners aren't properly civilized and must be forced to adopt civilized Western ways, or else remain forever as dangerous and uncivilized savages? Because that's what it sounds like.

A culture less in line with modern and liberal values than our own, with not only no interest in modernizing, but an interest in subverting our institutions to pander to their prejudices and such, for example, operation trojan horse and islamization projects.

So are you saying its impossible for a culture to be dangerous and savage? If not, then your second point here is entirely useless to the discussion. I've not said or implied all non-westerners have this issue, and all you've done is basically deny any such culture can possibly exist. But you do it with such an air of assuredness that people don't often bother to notice that is essentially the claim of the cultural relativists on your side of the argument.
Once you decide you aren't concerned if some SJW calls you a racist and start actually challenging the points, they're patently absurd, such as your one here. No culture is savage? Ridiculous.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... video.html

If you accept a savage culture can exist, then your point here is hollow as you've phrased it. You're relying on all cultures being equal.

So tell me. What's the point in doing things like legalizing gay marriage? Or combating racism and sexism? The end result will be no better or worse than our current culture, unless you admit some cultures are superior to other ones.

How about that the mere existence of a muslim community in your nation kills free speech as a concept, even with only 1, 2, or 3% of them?
(Mohammed cartoons.)

We've not had that problem with a demographic before in modern times. The routine and persistent terrorism if certain ideas or art forms are expressed so as to purge them from public discourse.

"Aztecs don't murder people and rip out their hearts any more than any other demographic does!!!1"

No, really, some cultures and religions do predispose you to certain behaviors, and sometimes those behaviors are inferior to other ones. It's post-modernist bullshit to pretend otherwise.

[Gravlen]

WHAT?!

Murder in Norway carries an automatic twenty-one year minimum sentence.

No, that's not true. Murder carries an 8 year minimum sentence.

[Vassenor]

Because it's not like British police services have spent the last quarter of a century being accused of institutionalised racism or anything.

Oh wait.

Well, considering how it's the same police which executed a Brazilian on the spot for the heinous crime of breathing while not white-skinned...

Well, that and vaulting a ticket barrier carrying a backpack when the officers in question were on terror alert due to intelligence about a possible attack plot.

[Gravlen]

If he was right every single Norwegian Muslim in the country would be in prison.

Most? No no.
Disproportionately? Yeh.

UK:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22237.html

France:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... isons.html

Norway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... rway#Crime

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_ ... e_dynamics
(1/3rd of prisoners are foreigners.)

I'm sure it's a coincidence.

It may or may not be a coincidence, but there's no connection between the two incommensurable factors you're presenting here.

Sure, if Breivik was right there might be a disproportionate amount of muslims in prison in Norway. However, Breivik is not right, and the fact that 1/3rd of prisoners in Norway are foreigners does not in any way suggest that people of a particular religious faith are disproportionately imprisoned today.

"Why are arab muslims not integrating into society?"

"Its societies fault!"

-Rinse repeat for:
Germany
France
Sweden
The united kingdom
Denmark
The netherlands
Australia
India
Russia
China
etc etc.

All with different types of policies, all with different approaches. None work.

Blaming the host countries strains credulity. It's them. They are the problem.

Occams razor guys, come on.

Whining about how it's western society just picking on them and such when it's also Russia, China, and India who have problems with them misses the point. It could just be their culture is violent and regressive, and they're the problem.

There's a problem with arab muslims in Russia, China and India? Do tell.

What's more likely, every single society and culture on earth is a problem except one, or just one? What's a more racist stance?

Which societies and cultures are not "a problem"?

[Gravlen]

Why? He was tried and convicted of his crimes, and he is serving the sentence handed to him.

IIRC, the way how the Norwegian prison sentencing works is that they can add 5 years onto the sentencing, after each period or something like that.

I'm probably wrong though.

You are correct, but only in cases where a person has been sentenced to protective detention, and they're still deemed to be a threat to society.

[Gravlen]

How about that the mere existence of a muslim community in your nation kills free speech as a concept, even with only 1, 2, or 3% of them?
(Mohammed cartoons.)

Oh please, don't be silly. For example, freedom of expression as a concept is alive and well in Denmark, the home of the Mohammed cartoons (where 3 - 4 % are muslims).