GOP Primary Megathread III: Third Time's A Charm

[Novus America]

NAFTA should be thrown into the nearest fireplace without remorse.

Why? It had little to no effect on jobs and helped grow the economy.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

If NAFTA had not been signed, Guillen adds, “the jobs would probably have gone to China or somewhere else; most jobs have relocated to China.

Yes. NAFTA is not a problem. Our one sided unfair trade China is a problem though.

[Northern Davincia]

NAFTA should be thrown into the nearest fireplace without remorse.

Why? It had little to no effect on jobs and helped grow the economy.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

If NAFTA had not been signed, Guillen adds, “the jobs would probably have gone to China or somewhere else; most jobs have relocated to China.

I oppose trade deals altogether. I wish to laissez-faire with trade.

[Geilinor]

Why? It had little to no effect on jobs and helped grow the economy.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

I oppose trade deals altogether. I wish to laissez-faire with trade.

I don't understand how that would work. Other countries won't agree to open their markets unless we negotiate.

[Northern Davincia]

I oppose trade deals altogether. I wish to laissez-faire with trade.

I don't understand how that would work. Other countries won't agree to open their markets unless we negotiate.

I simply see no reason as to why governments should be monitoring trade between nations so extensively.
Businesses alone should be the ones to establish whom they do business with.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/ ... ntage.html
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Inte ... ments.html

[Theodolia]

Why? It had little to no effect on jobs and helped grow the economy.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

I oppose trade deals altogether. I wish to laissez-faire with trade.

You realize that most free trade deals are basically deregulatory packages right?

[Northern Davincia]

I oppose trade deals altogether. I wish to laissez-faire with trade.

You realize that most free trade deals are basically deregulatory packages right?

They're hardly deregulatory (in the sense that I am referring to).

[Novus America]

You realize that most free trade deals are basically deregulatory packages right?

They're hardly deregulatory (in the sense that I am referring to).

That does not matter. The US has no way to ensure US companies have access to foreign markets without deals. If we open our markets to everyone but everbody else limits our access how does that work?

[Northern Davincia]

They're hardly deregulatory (in the sense that I am referring to).

That does not matter. The US has no way to ensure US companies have access to foreign markets without deals. If we open our markets to everyone but everbody else limits our access how does that work?

Well, it would be my assumption that individual businesses themselves would have to negotiate with foreign governments, but the choice to do so is, ultimately, up to them.

[Novus America]

That does not matter. The US has no way to ensure US companies have access to foreign markets without deals. If we open our markets to everyone but everbody else limits our access how does that work?

Well, it would be my assumption that individual businesses themselves would have to negotiate with foreign governments, but the choice to do so is, ultimately, up to them.

And what if the foreign governments refuse to? And by extension for companies he to negotiate deals with the US government.

[Geilinor]

That does not matter. The US has no way to ensure US companies have access to foreign markets without deals. If we open our markets to everyone but everbody else limits our access how does that work?

Well, it would be my assumption that individual businesses themselves would have to negotiate with foreign governments, but the choice to do so is, ultimately, up to them.

Foreign governments will never agree to do that. They would prefer to work with other governments for convenience and PR reasons.

[Northern Davincia]

Well, it would be my assumption that individual businesses themselves would have to negotiate with foreign governments, but the choice to do so is, ultimately, up to them.

Foreign governments will never agree to do that. They would prefer to work with other governments for convenience and PR reasons.

This seems like baseless conjecture.

[Geilinor]

Foreign governments will never agree to do that. They would prefer to work with other governments for convenience and PR reasons.

This seems like baseless conjecture.

There are thousands of businesses but less than 200 countries. Some organizations, like the EU, negotiate as a group.

[Novus America]

Foreign governments will never agree to do that. They would prefer to work with other governments for convenience and PR reasons.

This seems like baseless conjecture.

Umm not really. Foreign governments already will rarely if ever negotiate with companies directly.

[Arkinesia]

Tell me how stagnate wages is prosperity.

Way to move those goal posts. And it does directly implicate the government. But if you want more...
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... great-idea
http://m.industryweek.com/workforce/why ... -countries

See the real world is more complicated than Econ 101.
Free trade is like fairy dust. It exists in thoery, not in practice. Like the informed market and rational consumer.

We do not and cannot work within a perfectly free market. Competive advantage is not something inanate. It is something determined by government policy. We can and should increase our competive advantage.

Are you really arguing our trade policy is perfect? Our ecnomy perfect? That there is no room for improvement.

We also have a trade deficit in height tier goods. Again your theoretical model has not played out perfectly in real life. At all.

Wages across the entire economy are stagnant, yes. But in manufacturing specifically, they have been perpetually increasing trending all the way back to 1950. So, you can keep your snark about “Econ 101 hurr badurr.” In the real world you like to cite, manufacturing wages are increasing. This is not opinion. This is stone cold fact.

As for the rest, it's a strawman. TPP is imperfect, as is NAFTA for that matter. There is no total free market and in no way, shape, or form did I claim as much. You're just pulling an imaginary argument out of your ass and “defeating” it. Good for you, but that's not my argument and never was.

[MERIZoC]

NAFTA should be thrown into the nearest fireplace without remorse.

Why? It had little to no effect on jobs and helped grow the economy.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

If NAFTA had not been signed, Guillen adds, “the jobs would probably have gone to China or somewhere else; most jobs have relocated to China.

And why exactly would they have been moved to China, hmm?

https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/212/45381.html

NAFTA's been used time and again to cut environmental and labour regulations. Free trade is a sham that hurts workers and the environment, and it's effects will be another dark spot on an already terrible legacy of Bill Clinton.

[Novus America]

Tell me how stagnate wages is prosperity.

Way to move those goal posts. And it does directly implicate the government. But if you want more...
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... great-idea
http://m.industryweek.com/workforce/why ... -countries

See the real world is more complicated than Econ 101.
Free trade is like fairy dust. It exists in thoery, not in practice. Like the informed market and rational consumer.

We do not and cannot work within a perfectly free market. Competive advantage is not something inanate. It is something determined by government policy. We can and should increase our competive advantage.

Are you really arguing our trade policy is perfect? Our ecnomy perfect? That there is no room for improvement.

We also have a trade deficit in height tier goods. Again your theoretical model has not played out perfectly in real life. At all.

Wages across the entire economy are stagnant, yes. But in manufacturing specifically, they have been perpetually increasing trending all the way back to 1950. So, you can keep your snark about “Econ 101 hurr badurr.” In the real world you like to cite, manufacturing wages are increasing. This is not opinion. This is stone cold fact.

As for the rest, it's a strawman. TPP is imperfect, as is NAFTA for that matter. There is no total free market and in no way, shape, or form did I claim as much. You're just pulling an imaginary argument out of your ass and “defeating” it. Good for you, but that's not my argument and never was.

Umm, yes manufacturing wages are growing. Which is way we should be creating more manufacturing jobs!

Wages are stagnant as whole as manufacturing jobs are far superior to shitty entry service jobs. But shitty entry service jobs are the jobs we are creating!

If manufacturing made up a bigger portion of the economy than wages would be growing more!

You just admitted manufacturing jobs are superior!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Why? It had little to no effect on jobs and helped grow the economy.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

I oppose trade deals altogether. I wish to laissez-faire with trade.

This sounds contradictory in many degrees.

[Kelinfort]

Why? It had little to no effect on jobs and helped grow the economy.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/07/naftas-impact-on-employment/
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/

I oppose trade deals altogether. I wish to laissez-faire with trade.

If the US did that, it's unlikely other countries would just follow suit.

We already have eliminated almost all tariffs. The main point is for other nations to eliminate theirs.

[Kelinfort]

Wages across the entire economy are stagnant, yes. But in manufacturing specifically, they have been perpetually increasing trending all the way back to 1950. So, you can keep your snark about “Econ 101 hurr badurr.” In the real world you like to cite, manufacturing wages are increasing. This is not opinion. This is stone cold fact.

As for the rest, it's a strawman. TPP is imperfect, as is NAFTA for that matter. There is no total free market and in no way, shape, or form did I claim as much. You're just pulling an imaginary argument out of your ass and “defeating” it. Good for you, but that's not my argument and never was.

Umm, yes manufacturing wages are growing. Which is way we should be creating more manufacturing jobs!

Wages are stagnant as whole as manufacturing jobs are far superior to shitty entry service jobs. But shitty entry service jobs are the jobs we are creating!

If manufacturing made up a bigger portion of the economy than wages would be growing more!

You just admitted manufacturing jobs are superior!

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ame ... ss-unions/

[Novus America]

Umm, yes manufacturing wages are growing. Which is way we should be creating more manufacturing jobs!

Wages are stagnant as whole as manufacturing jobs are far superior to shitty entry service jobs. But shitty entry service jobs are the jobs we are creating!

If manufacturing made up a bigger portion of the economy than wages would be growing more!

You just admitted manufacturing jobs are superior!

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ame ... ss-unions/

Your source undermines its own arguement. (And falsely blames NAFTA, but you support NAFTA, you source is against your own ideology) South Carolina factory workers make a little less but still make over $18 an hour. A unionized service job will not pay that. And factories are more conducive to unions and higher wages than the service industry. They do have unique qualities that mean replicating those wages in the service industry are impossible.

More non Union manufacturing jobs will help. Because a non Union job paying $18 is still a damn good job. People do not give a shit about unions. They care about wages. And non Union manufacturing jobs still pay good wages.

Also raising the wages in the service industry to $18 would cause prices and uneployement to soar. A factory (high productivity) can afford to pay $18. A McDonalds (low productivity) cannot.

Also the same defeatist BS. That some how creating jobs in manufacturing is impossible because of pixie dust or something.

Also that same freaking "the factory jobs are gone and not coming back".

So who the fuck are the people getting paid to work $18 in South Carolina?! South Varolina has manufacturing jobs! And they are coming back! At least to anti Union South Carolina.
http://sccommerce.com/sites/default/fil ... rolina.pdf

So stop the Bullshit!

Manufacturing jobs are not gone! 6 million of 18 million are gone, but that still leaves 12 million. And it is possible to increase manufacturing jobs!

Oh and your own source says the globalization you so love causes the unions to decline!

Please stop "the manufacturing jobs are gone and not coming back". It is still patently false bullshit.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-fli ... 2015-05-01

But reform is needed to make it happen faster.

http://www.epi.org/publication/manufact ... e-culprit/

"Conclusion: Ending the Great Recession in manufacturing
The leading cause of growing U.S. trade deficits is currency manipulation, which distorts trade flows by artificially lowering the cost of U.S. imports and raising the cost of U.S. exports. More than 20 countries, led by China, have been spending about $1 trillion per year buying foreign assets to artificially suppress the value of their currencies (Bergsten and Gagnon 2012). Ending currency manipulation can create between 2.3 million and 5.8 million jobs for working Americans, and about 40 percent of those jobs (between 891,500 and 2.3 million) would be in manufacturing (Scott 2014).

We also need to reform and aggressively enforce U.S. fair trade laws in order to reduce or eliminate the flood of illegally dumped and subsidized imports of steel and many other manufactured products (Stewart et al. 2014).

The United States also has a major infrastructure shortfall. The American Society of Civil Engineers (2014) has estimated that the United States needs to invest $3.6 trillion in rebuilding U.S. infrastructure by 2020. Bivens (2014) has estimated that a debt-financed investment of $250 billion per year could create up to 3 million new jobs, and that these jobs could be sustained for over seven years. Construction and manufacturing are two of the most prominent input supplier sectors in infrastructure investment packages. As a first step, Congress needs to approve a multi-year extension of federal transportation funding, which is currently being held up in the House of Representatives (Laing 2015).

Infrastructure investment could also reduce the demand shortfall that has impeded recovery from the Great Recession. As of July 2015, 2.9 million jobs are still needed to create enough payroll employment to absorb the excess unemployment and labor-force growth that has occurred since the previous business cycle peak in December 2007 (EPI 2015).

Taken together, steps to eliminate trade deficits (by ending currency manipulation and unfair trade) and rebuild U.S. infrastructure could easily generate sufficient demand for manufactured products to return most or all of the 5 million manufacturing jobs lost between 2000 and 2014. Growing trade deficits and the shortfall in demand caused by the Great Recession, and not productivity growth, are the major causes of manufacturing job loss in this period."

[Grave_n_idle]

I simply see no reason as to why governments should be monitoring trade between nations so extensively.

Because governments have a bit of a vested interest in the whole nation - something businesses don't have to have.

Businesses alone should be the ones to establish whom they do business with.

Nonsensical.

Businesses are motivated by self-interest.

[Arkinesia]

Umm, yes manufacturing wages are growing. Which is way we should be creating more manufacturing jobs!

And I'm saying your suggestion on how to do this (start a trade war with China) is dumb.

South Carolina has had no problem attracting manufacturing jobs. They offer tax incentives, sure, but mainly, what attracts manufacturing companies to this state are the ReadySC program (a large-scale improvement of tech colleges and trade schools teaching people marketable labor skills) and the right-to-work laws we have.

Michelin in particular has been a huge fan of it—they were able to transfer people very easily when they consolidated operations in South Carolina, and retained almost 1,000 jobs because of that, something that would have been nearly impossible with a union framework.

[Novus America]

Umm, yes manufacturing wages are growing. Which is way we should be creating more manufacturing jobs!

And I'm saying your suggestion on how to do this (start a trade war with China) is dumb.

South Carolina has had no problem attracting manufacturing jobs. They offer tax incentives, sure, but mainly, what attracts manufacturing companies to this state are the ReadySC program (a large-scale improvement of tech colleges and trade schools teaching people marketable labor skills) and the right-to-work laws we have.

Michelin in particular has been a huge fan of it—they were able to transfer people very easily when they consolidated operations in South Carolina, and retained almost 1,000 jobs because of that, something that would have been nearly impossible with a union framework.

We cannot start a trade war with China. They started it! If you support "free" trade why are you supporting Chinese tariffs on US goods!? Chinese state controlled companies dumping? We would just be fighting back. And I have posted numerous sources showing that holding China accountable for their trade war on us would create millions more manufacturing jobs.

[Northern Davincia]

Nonsensical.

Businesses are motivated by self-interest.

Aye. It's something that I see potential in, and wish to promote.

[Grave_n_idle]

Nonsensical.

Businesses are motivated by self-interest.

Aye. It's something that I see potential in, and wish to promote.

It's fine for you to think that. I'm just explaining why it's naive.

You said: "I simply see no reason as to why governments should be monitoring trade between nations so extensively. Businesses alone should be the ones to establish whom they do business with."

And I gave the reason you claim you didn't see, and explained why your second idea was nonsensical.