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Do we benefit from exploitation in the Third World?

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Egosphere
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Do we benefit from exploitation in the Third World?

Postby Egosphere » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:03 pm

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy

In Marxist theory, those workers (proletarians) in developed countries who benefit from the superprofits extracted from the impoverished workers of underdeveloped countries form an "aristocracy of labor." The phrase was popularized by Karl Kautsky in 1901 and theorized by Vladimir Lenin in his treatise on Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism. Lenin's theory contends that companies in the developed world exploit workers in the developing world (where wages are much lower), resulting in increased profits. Because of these increased profits, the companies are able to pay higher wages to their employees "at home" (that is, in the developed world), thus creating a working class satisfied with their standard of living and not inclined to proletarian revolution. Lenin thus contended that imperialism had prevented increasing class polarization in the developed world, and argued that a workers' revolution could only begin in one of the underdeveloped or semideveloped countries, such as Russia. This theory of the labor aristocracy is controversial in the Marxist movement.


Okay, a bit heavy on the Marxist rhetoric but you don't have to be a Marxist to agree with it. So, is there any truth to this theory? Are the working classes of the Western world passively (probably unwittingly) exploiting the Third World by feathering their own nests with scraps from the table of companies who directly exploit the worlds poorest people? Or is it empty Marxist rhetoric and capitalism is pulling these people out of poverty as it did with us in the 19th and 20th centuries?
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Sharandas
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Postby Sharandas » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:07 pm

As a society we do, but we shouldn't.

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Postby Brogavia » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:09 pm

Marx's ideas are wishful thinking at best, schitzo ranting at worst.

And yes, I benefit from the exploitation of the third world. And no I don't give a rat's ass.
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:11 pm

It's a complex situation. Multinationals benefit from the massively decreased cost from outsourcing, and consumers in the west benefit from the resulting decreased prices of their output, causing their real wages to go up. However, I don't believe that the west is dependent on exploitation, as some claim, I'm pretty confident that we can survive and live comfortably, without having to exploit third world workers, we may just see a moderate increase in the price of food and textiles.

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Postby Yootopia » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:13 pm

Brogavia wrote:Marx's ideas are wishful thinking at best, schitzo ranting at worst.

Not a great fan of the Communist Manifesto, but Capital has some interesting, if blindingly obvious, critiques of capitalism that are useful to teach The Young Folk About Things, I suppose.

And yes, of course we benefit from exploitation in the Third World.
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Postby Kori to Mizu to Joki » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:14 pm

Brogavia wrote: And no I don't give a rat's ass.


Nasty.



Yes, we have in the past. (British Empire....etc.)

We still are in forms of (unregistered) sweat shops.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:15 pm

Of course we do. But the alternative is to... What? Close down all sweatshops and starve thousands?
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Postby AngloSaxonLand » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:18 pm

Exploitation? Your operating immediatly from a false premise. Multinationals who invest in the third world create many jobs, pay higher wages and pay tax to the government - there are many examples of countries who have opened themselves up to the capitalist world and intergrated into the global economy: South Korea, China, Japan and Eastern Europe is doing it now. They benefit from "exploitation".

Anyway 1st world consumers definitly benefit from it. Wages are far lower in the third-world than here and so when your costs go down when your outsource your factory from Birmingham, UK to Bombay, India you can price lower and be more competitive.

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The Anglo-Saxon Empire
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Postby The Anglo-Saxon Empire » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:20 pm

Brogavia wrote:Marx's ideas are wishful thinking at best, schitzo ranting at worst.

And yes, I benefit from the exploitation of the third world. And no I don't give a rat's ass.

^this
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Postby United Russian State » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:21 pm

AngloSaxonLand wrote:Exploitation? Your operating immediatly from a false premise. Multinationals who invest in the third world create many jobs, pay higher wages and pay tax to the government - there are many examples of countries who have opened themselves up to the capitalist world and intergrated into the global economy: South Korea, China, Japan and Eastern Europe is doing it now. They benefit from "exploitation".

Anyway 1st world consumers definitly benefit from it. Wages are far lower in the third-world than here and so when your costs go down when your outsource your factory from Birmingham, UK to Bombay, India you can price lower and be more competitive.


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Kori to Mizu to Joki
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Postby Kori to Mizu to Joki » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:23 pm

AngloSaxonLand wrote:Exploitation? Your operating immediatly from a false premise. Multinationals who invest in the third world create many jobs, pay higher wages and pay tax to the government - there are many examples of countries who have opened themselves up to the capitalist world and intergrated into the global economy: South Korea, China, Japan and Eastern Europe is doing it now. They benefit from "exploitation".


That's like your definition of exploitation.
Which isn't really what I'd call exploitation.
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:24 pm

Sharandas wrote:As a society we do, but we shouldn't.


Yep. Economically speaking the western world benefits from the exploitation of the third world just as slave owners benefit from the ownership of slaves. It is what gives you the "always low prices" for junk you will throw away.
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Postby Kori to Mizu to Joki » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:25 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Of course we do. But the alternative is to... What? Close down all sweatshops and starve thousands?


Why can't third world countries have factories in the conditions that westerners can have?
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Bavungria
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Postby Bavungria » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:26 pm

well it is hard to say. But we 1st world country's benefit from the third world whether we like it or not. But the fact is the third world can sometimes benefits from us. Sure sweat shops are great when that's the only job you can find for yourself well any job is good if that is the only job you can find for yourself. But maybe we should look out how we can make it better fro the third world and not effect us negatively or too much or mayeb we should look at giving up stuff we have so the third world can enjoy what we have. i used to be a communist myself but i never did get to read Karl's books.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:28 pm

Natapoc wrote:Yep. Economically speaking the western world benefits from the exploitation of the third world just as slave owners benefit from the ownership of slaves. It is what gives you the "always low prices" for junk you will throw away.

Except slaves weren't, you know, paid. And they didn't have any choice in the matter. And it was split among racial lines.

But hey! Don't let facts get in the way of your Communist ranting!
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Postby Bavungria » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:29 pm

well it is hard to say. But we 1st world country's benefit from the third world whether we like it or not. But the fact is the third world can sometimes benefits from us. Sure sweat shops are great when that's the only job you can find for yourself well any job is good if that is the only job you can find for yourself. But maybe we should look out how we can make it better fro the third world and not effect us negatively or too much or mayeb we should look at giving up stuff we have so the third world can enjoy what we have. i used to be a communist myself but i never did get to read Karl's books.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:31 pm

Kori to Mizu to Joki wrote:Why can't third world countries have factories in the conditions that westerners can have?

Capital and problems with governments, mostly. If they had the money to, you know, not cut ever corner they could, and a government that represented the people under it's care effectively, I would be pushing for better working conditions.

Third World countries have neither.
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Postby Brogavia » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:36 pm

Kori to Mizu to Joki wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Of course we do. But the alternative is to... What? Close down all sweatshops and starve thousands?


Why can't third world countries have factories in the conditions that westerners can have?


Because American style factories require all sorts of related industries that are not found in suffincient strength in the third world to support those factories.
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:37 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Natapoc wrote:Yep. Economically speaking the western world benefits from the exploitation of the third world just as slave owners benefit from the ownership of slaves. It is what gives you the "always low prices" for junk you will throw away.

Except slaves weren't, you know, paid. And they didn't have any choice in the matter. And it was split among racial lines.

But hey! Don't let facts get in the way of your Communist ranting!


There is still slavery.

There is more than one type of slavery.

Not all slavery is or was "American style" slavery. Actually the type of slavery you are referring to was not the most common throughout history. The most common type of slavery in the world right now is indentured servitude. Over 27 million people are slaves TODAY.

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Postby Kori to Mizu to Joki » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:37 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Third World countries have neither.



So?

Wouldn't helping the people then help the governments in the future.
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Postby Cosmopoles » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:41 pm

Kori to Mizu to Joki wrote:So?

Wouldn't helping the people then help the governments in the future.


Its not clear the extent to which people in developing countries are demanding better working conditions and pay. After all, while working in a third world factory certainly isn't pleasant it seems to beat the rural subsistence farming that many workers gave up to work in a factory. I don't doubt that eventually workers in the third world will demand better working conditions from their employers and governments just like the developed world did in the last century.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:42 pm

Natapoc wrote:
There is still slavery.

There is more than one type of slavery.

Not all slavery is or was "American style" slavery. Actually the type of slavery you are referring to was not the most common throughout history. The most common type of slavery in the world right now is indentured servitude. Over 27 million people are slaves TODAY.

http://www.notforsalecampaign.org/

Uh-huh. Most of that site is merely Communist ranting about unfair loans and 'wage slavery', along with a nice amount of strawmen they set up. Slavery is dead, and 'wage slavery' only exists in the minds of Marxists.
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Postby Yootopia » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:43 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Slavery is dead.

Not entirely true. Slavery wasn't just done by whitey, you know, and it still basically goes on in places like the DRC.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:44 pm

Kori to Mizu to Joki wrote:So?

Wouldn't helping the people then help the governments in the future.

Sure, let's get our government to impose certain working conditions upon the governments of third-world countries. While we're at it, let's keep a constant military presence and mess with their other laws until they're at our liking. It's our burden, right? :roll:
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:44 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
There is still slavery.

There is more than one type of slavery.

Not all slavery is or was "American style" slavery. Actually the type of slavery you are referring to was not the most common throughout history. The most common type of slavery in the world right now is indentured servitude. Over 27 million people are slaves TODAY.

http://www.notforsalecampaign.org/

Uh-huh. Most of that site is merely Communist ranting about unfair loans and 'wage slavery', along with a nice amount of strawmen they set up. Slavery is dead, and 'wage slavery' only exists in the minds of Marxists.


Did you actually look at that site? They are not talking about that at all. It is not a Marxist site. If you want a nice communist critique then: 6 billion people are slaves today!
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