Reinstate the Bellamy Salute

[New Grestin]

With it's association to Fascism and Nazism?

Even if people actually wanted to reinstate it, I doubt anyone would actually allow it.

[The Alexanderians]

IT's not banned though, it's just not supported. So I ask you again, what justifies giving it support? You're avoiding the question. Every action must be justified especially when it comes with what it does.
Also what made pulling support so unjust?
The difference between this and homosexuality is this is not a basic human right, homosexuality is. Homosexuality automatically gets support for that reason. Are we done with that particular non sequitur.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/queen-nazi-salute-countries-where-gesture-is-illegal-10401630.html

I have answered your question. I have said the ban is unjust. Are you wanting unjust bans to require reasons for repeal? Is that what you're saying?

And no, human rights have no relevance. Even if it did, your claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#Sexual_orientation_and_gender_identity

A global charter for sexual orientation and gender identity rights has been proposed in the form of the 'Yogyakarta Principles', a set of 29 principles whose authors say they apply International Human Rights Law statutes and precedent to situations relevant to LGBT people's experience.[110] The principles were presented at a United Nations event in New York on November 7, 2007, co-sponsored by Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay.

The principles have been acknowledged with influencing the French proposed UN declaration on sexual orientation and gender identity, which focuses on ending violence, criminalization and capital punishment and does not include dialogue about same-sex marriage or right to start a family.[111][112] The proposal was supported by 67 of the then 192 member countries of the United Nations, including all EU member states and the United States. An alternative statement opposing the proposal was initiated by Syria and signed by 57 member nations, including all 27 nations of the Arab League as well as Iran and North Korea.[113][114]

There's hardly a universal consensus on homosexuality being a human right. So there goes that. And regardless, it's not the thread topic, and it doesn't have anything to do with bringing back the Bellamy salute.

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The thing is, homosexuality upsets the population because they are Christian.
It has nothing to do with symbolism of evil empires in the past, like the Bellam salute does.
Homosexuality has nothing to do with symbolism of what a evil nation did-The Bellam salute does however.

Uhuh, inconsistent reasoning.

When someone says we shouldn't do X because it would mean "We are bringing back something that has not been used for ages and which will certainly offend and piss off a large sector of the population., they ought to use that as their standard instead of only using it when Nazis are involved.

It's not the inconsistent standard that is the reason for opposing bringing back the Bellamy salute. It's that it reminds some people of Nazis. I ask that people be honest about their reasons instead of giving inconsistent standards they don't want to stand by.

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Saluting using a particular method (namely the Bellamy Salute) is similar to calling people Negros because it has certain connotations about it. Again it isn't just because Nazis used it, it is because it actually represents Nazis, their ideology, and the actions they took. Eating sugar, wearing mustaches, etc do not represent Nazis, their ideology, and the actions they took. And it isn't just Nationes Pii Redivivi that has that association, it a a large portion of society (note I say nothing about majority). Homosexuality meanwhile and the rights associated with it are not a symbol.

No one is stopping you from using the Bellamy Salute, what we are asking you for is a reason we should use it especially because it has such associations.

Special pleading?

A certain style of mustache is associated with a certain Nazi. Clearly, that certain mustache style represents Nazis. After all, that's the reasoning used for the Bellamy salute, which has as little to do with Nazis as the certain mustache style does. You're being arbitrary and you're being inconsistent.

You want to prevent the Bellamy salute from being brought back because you associate it with Nazis, nevermind that the people wanting to bring back the Bellamy salute don't associate it with Nazis.

You don't have an actual reason for why the Bellamy salute shouldn't be brought back. You associating it with Nazis doesn't suffice.

And you haven't yet answered the question. Is it okay to bring back the Bellamy salute the moment only 49% of people associate it with Nazis? You're appealing to majority, so are you going to stand by that appeal to majority the moment the majority shifts? Or does it only work when it's in agreement with you?

It's amazing how people can come up with any reason except their actual one, being that they associate it with Nazis. Why does it only apply to Nazis? Why is this not a valid measure for anything else? If you're going to be inconsistent and arbitrary, the least you can do is be honest about it.

1. IT's not banned in the states, which is where we're talking about since this is in conjunction with the pledge of allegiance, an American activity.

2. You brought it up keep in mind if you're going to whine about it in the thread blame your own shortcomings. And it is a human right, use a better source than wikipedia for anything. It falls under self expression and free speech which is defined in the Declaration of Human Rights.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

With it's association to Fascism and Nazism?

Even if people actually wanted to reinstate it, I doubt anyone would actually allow it.

I'd imagine it would take a long time to be reinstituted as anything normal.

[The Alexanderians]

With it's association to Fascism and Nazism?

Even if people actually wanted to reinstate it, I doubt anyone would actually allow it.

I'd imagine it would take a long time to be reinstituted as anything normal.

The global populace would have to collectively forget about it connotations first.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

You're calling refusing to let you strawman her argument a shifty move when she was explicit in the first place? and saying shes moved the goalposts by sayign the exact same thing again and emphasizing it?
Lol kay.

What can I say, a spade is a spade is a spade.

The salute is illegal in a number of countries and constitutes an infringement on right to self-expression.

Notice how, in those countries, it was never associated with anything else but Nazism. Note also that Bellamy is an American, and that calling it a 'Bellamy Salute' rather than any other name for such gesture brings it to the American context, as does the word 'reinstate', but, by the bye, I suppose it was wrong of me to assume that this was an American debate.

NO YOU! or whatever, since the rest of your post devolves into that.

Like this rambling post?

You're also framing homosexuality legalization from a leftist perspective. I dont' necessarily care that it oppresses people and makes them feel bad. I care that it's pointless and arbitrary to ban it, and serves no functional purpose, and actually constitutes a drain on public resources. Same as a salute ban. It immediately fails the pragmatism test. I don't need to then have to weigh whether I give a shit about their feelings in this instance against public resources and interest, it never reaches that point.

And you assume that it is so common that prosecution of doing something objectively offensive is causing a significant drain of public resources? And to what end? So that neo-Nazis can be more public about their assholery?

[The United Colonies of Earth]

I'd imagine it would take a long time to be reinstituted as anything normal.

The global populace would have to collectively forget about it connotations first.

Definitely.

[New Grestin]

With it's association to Fascism and Nazism?

Even if people actually wanted to reinstate it, I doubt anyone would actually allow it.

I'd imagine it would take a long time to be reinstituted as anything normal.

Even still, Nazism and Fascism are such major defining elements of the modern era that it would be a long, long time before anyone even suggested the idea seriously.

[The Alexanderians]

I'd imagine it would take a long time to be reinstituted as anything normal.

Even still, Nazism and Fascism are such major defining elements of the modern era that it would be a long, long time before anyone even suggested the idea seriously.

Or in sound judgement and mind.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

I'd imagine it would take a long time to be reinstituted as anything normal.

Even still, Nazism and Fascism are such major defining elements of the modern era that it would be a long, long time before anyone even suggested the idea seriously.

Give or take...1000 years assuming we survive?

[The Alexanderians]

Even still, Nazism and Fascism are such major defining elements of the modern era that it would be a long, long time before anyone even suggested the idea seriously.

Give or take...1000 years assuming we survive?

Longer considering the fascists still remembered the "Roman Salute" at the time the connotation shifted.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Give or take...1000 years assuming we survive?

Longer considering the fascists still remembered the "Roman Salute" at the time the connotation shifted.

Oh. Yeah, that oughta fit.

[Neutraligon]

Special pleading?

A certain style of mustache is associated with a certain Nazi. Clearly, that certain mustache style represents Nazis. After all, that's the reasoning used for the Bellamy salute, which has as little to do with Nazis as the certain mustache style does. You're being arbitrary and you're being inconsistent.

You want to prevent the Bellamy salute from being brought back because you associate it with Nazis, nevermind that the people wanting to bring back the Bellamy salute don't associate it with Nazis.

You don't have an actual reason for why the Bellamy salute shouldn't be brought back. You associating it with Nazis doesn't suffice.

And you haven't yet answered the question. Is it okay to bring back the Bellamy salute the moment only 49% of people associate it with Nazis? You're appealing to majority, so are you going to stand by that appeal to majority the moment the majority shifts? Or does it only work when it's in agreement with you?

It's amazing how people can come up with any reason except their actual one, being that they associate it with Nazis. Why does it only apply to Nazis? Why is this not a valid measure for anything else? If you're going to be inconsistent and arbitrary, the least you can do is be honest about it.

It is again not special pleading. Certain things are associated with the regime, others are not. That is a fact. In this case the salute is associated with Nazi Germany including their ideology and actions. That is the salute is a symbol for Nazi Germany. Other things are not seen as Representative of Nazi Germany. That is simply a fact. This is the second time you claim I am using a fallacy when I am not. You might want to get a better idea of what fallacies should be used when.

There is no reason to bring the Bellamy Salute back, and the fact that it is associated with Nazi Germany and it's ideology is a reason, because using the salute then associates you with that ideology. It basically makes it seem like you support the actions and ideology of Nazi Germany. That is kinda the purpose of symbols.

I did answer the question, by telling you it was a malformed question. It is malformed because exact percentages are useless when it comes to how a society sees a certain symbol.

We are not being inconsistent, the fact it that the Bellamy Salute is associated with Nazis and their ideology, while the other things you mentioned are not. That is simply how symbols work.

[New Grestin]

Even still, Nazism and Fascism are such major defining elements of the modern era that it would be a long, long time before anyone even suggested the idea seriously.

Give or take...1000 years assuming we survive?

When the deaths and tragedy of the Second World War are generations past, when survivors can't see the numbers on their arms and veterans don't have to remember the atrocities we committed to keep Fascism from spreading, then maybe we can discuss bringing this back.

But considering that there are people who are still salty about Genghis Khan's atrocities, I seriously doubt it.

[Ostroeuropa]

You're calling refusing to let you strawman her argument a shifty move when she was explicit in the first place? and saying shes moved the goalposts by sayign the exact same thing again and emphasizing it?
Lol kay.

What can I say, a spade is a spade is a spade.

So arguing in bad faith then, got it. We're done here.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Give or take...1000 years assuming we survive?

When the deaths and tragedy of the Second World War are generations past, when survivors can't see the numbers on their arms and veterans don't have to remember the atrocities we committed to keep Fascism from spreading, then maybe we can discuss bringing this back.

But considering that there are people who are still salty about Genghis Khan's atrocities, I seriously doubt it.

It is going to take more than a generation to forget that entire ethnic groups have nearly been wiped out.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

What can I say, a spade is a spade is a spade.

So arguing in bad faith then, got it. We're done here.

I'm glad of it, your post had no argument in it in the first place, arguing with you would have only resulted in iterations of the same point, only with progressively more and more vituperations and calumnies.

[Neutraligon]

When the deaths and tragedy of the Second World War are generations past, when survivors can't see the numbers on their arms and veterans don't have to remember the atrocities we committed to keep Fascism from spreading, then maybe we can discuss bringing this back.

But considering that there are people who are still salty about Genghis Khan's atrocities, I seriously doubt it.

It is going to take more than a generation to forget that entire ethnic groups have nearly been wiped out.

My mom is the child of two people who escaped Austria. Her life was highly influenced by the actions of Nazi Germany.More than half my family died thanks to the Holocaust. I have a "distant" cousin who actually survived Auschwitz.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

It is going to take more than a generation to forget that entire ethnic groups have nearly been wiped out.

My mom is the child of two people who escaped Austria. Her life was highly influenced by the actions of Nazi Germany.

Wow...I had no idea.
Frankly.

[Neutraligon]

My mom is the child of two people who escaped Austria. Her life was highly influenced by the actions of Nazi Germany.

Wow...I had no idea.
Frankly.

The children of Holocaust survivors and escapees where highly influenced because their own parents acted very differently from those who were not so affected. For my own mom, her mom tried to completely get rid of her own culture. She refused to teach my mom German. For many, they tried to disassociate themselves with Judaism. Others held even more tightly to it. It changed not 1 generation but at least two, and possibly three looking into my generation.

[United States of Conner]

Just get rid of the pledge.

[Liriena]

Because its tradition and what we were doing long before the fascists started using it.

So?

Something being relatively old doesn't make it good or necessary.

[Neutraligon]

Because its tradition and what we were doing long before the fascists started using it.

So?

Something being relatively old doesn't make it good or necessary.

I do not really understand tradition for traditions sake. Especially when it has stopped being tradition for a relatively long period of time.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Just get rid of the pledge.

Not going to disagree with you, but it is kinda hard, seeing as it will get almost everyone pissed off at your supposed anti-Americanism and lack of patriotism.

An anecdote, my own university had a group of students wanted to remove a single American flag from a small by corner of the school, it was defeated, the chancellor (some dipshit who makes more than the fucking president for sitting on his ass all day) sent an email congratulating himself and the student body for this decision before launching into a bunch of platitudes about how great America is, and then we get conservatives from nearby coming to our school to protest a decision we did not make, and bringing kids over just to show what a den of anti-Americanism our university is for defeating a proposal to get rid of a single American flag in the middle of nowhere. In protest, they even littered the place with American flags, sticking them into bushes and into the ground, handing them out, because we need more flags to replace the one we didn't take down.

[Wisconsin9]

Because its tradition and what we were doing long before the fascists started using it.

So?

Something being relatively old doesn't make it good or necessary.

Also, if we've been not using something for more time than we were using it, doesn't that mean that not using it is what's traditional?

Like, since it was invented, even. We used it for less than fifty years, and it's been, what, seventy-five, eighty since we ditched it?

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Wow...I had no idea.
Frankly.

The children of Holocaust survivors and escapees where highly influenced because their own parents acted very differently from those who were not so affected. For my own mom, her mom tried to completely get rid of her own culture. She refused to teach my mom German. For many, they tried to disassociate themselves with Judaism. Others held even more tightly to it. It changed not 1 generation but at least two, and possibly three looking into my generation.

I didn't know it reached that deep, or that it caused your grandma to abandon her culture.