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The UK Referendum on Membership of the European Union

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU

Remain a member of the EU (UK citizen)
279
18%
Leave the EU (UK citizen)
207
13%
Remain a member of the EU (citizen of other EU member)
146
9%
Leave the EU (citizen of other EU member)
99
6%
Remain a member of the EU (non-EU citizen)
432
27%
Leave the EU (non-EU citizen)
414
26%
 
Total votes : 1577

User avatar
Neolvex
Diplomat
 
Posts: 994
Founded: Oct 20, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Neolvex » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:05 pm

Dejanic wrote:I support Irish unification. NI has no place in the United Kingdom, it's Irish land and Britain should stay out of it. So this is a win win for me.

I agree. Ireland and N. Ireland should reunite. They voted to stay but Wales and England dragged them and Scotland with it
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Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:05 pm

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Novus America wrote:Well it is still a popular tax haven. I am sure London will still be a popular tax haven.

Neither London nor Singapore are tax havens. Singapore can at a stretch be called an offshore financial centre, but it's nothing like real tax havens (you know, the Guernseys and Panamas of this world). The question is why financial institutions choose to set up in a particular location, and how different cities compete to be the most popular destination. Singapore has a developed legal system and historical trade links, a multi-lingual and well-educated population and the technological infrastructure. So, together with HK which benefits primarily from its easy access into China, it is a go-to place for fixed income and FX in the Asian time zones.

London also has those benefits (not tax though, in particular) and obviously a huge amount of history and inertia. But what do people actually do? Mostly they take money from, and serve the needs of, mainland European clients. There are plenty of hedge funds and investment firms based in London, but not only do those raise a lot of cash on the mainland, but you can't really run a market without big real money and corporate investors. The reason you can serve these clients from London is because in the EU regulations can't discriminate between countries and so there is no reason not to be based in London. But with Britain leaving, there will now be complex negotiations about which rules the UK regulators have to put in place to satisfy the EU regulators that regulation is no less stringent in London than it would be in Dublin, Paris or Frankfurt. If those fail, a lot of business will necessarily have to migrate from London to an EU alternative. London won't be finished as a financial centre, but it will lose ground relative to its competitors. Jamie Dimon said Brexit could mean a reduction in JP Morgan's UK workforce by a quarter.

It is not the same, but being small does not mean a lack of investment. Not that the UK will be small.

The point is what the investment is for. The reasons to invest in Singapore are not really applicable to the UK. And the reasons to invest in a UK in the single market are nowhere near as compelling for a UK out of the single market. So the question is what the UK has to offer. Singapore holds no lessons in that regard.


The U.K. has a favorable tax and regulatory struture and a well educated English speaking population. It has a lot to offer. Will the UK be able to leverage those he fits outside the EU? Maybe. Maybe not. We shall see.
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Teemant
Senator
 
Posts: 4130
Founded: Oct 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Teemant » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:05 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
psst: "negotiate a trade deal" means "the UK will continue to follow EU regulations and have freedom of movement in exchange for access to the common market"


Bargaining power is on the UK, though. As a sovereign entity, the UK can pick and choose what deals it wants to make instead of being forced to abide to the EU's deals.


I doubt European Union will accept everything that United Kingdom wants. If European Union is fighting against something it is the pick and choose approach.
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User avatar
Calafai
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Jun 20, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Calafai » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:06 pm

Yeah. Wales, to be honest won't survive in the modern world without england.

But anything can happen. Nothern Ireland and Scotland both have shown they wanted to stay in the European Union by the dozens and with the United Kingdom just not listening to them anything could happen.

User avatar
Yorkers
Minister
 
Posts: 2488
Founded: Oct 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Yorkers » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:07 pm

Trump just said he'd reaffirm our close relations with the UK and said he'd hold them as equal partner in the Anglo-American special relationship, and came out against the EU.


Oh boy if the Donald wins in November, there's no going back!
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User avatar
Rutthenia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1257
Founded: Mar 04, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rutthenia » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:07 pm

Do you guys realise that the North and South will still have open borders due to the Common Travel Area, right?
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User avatar
Kelinfort
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16394
Founded: Nov 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kelinfort » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:08 pm

"It is now important for Texas to look to #Brexit as an inspiration and an example that Texans can also take control of our destiny," group president Daniel Miller said in a statement Thursday.


Wowee

User avatar
Yorkers
Minister
 
Posts: 2488
Founded: Oct 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Yorkers » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:08 pm

Westminister currently sends up a ton of subsidies and social welfare to Northern Ireland. Do you really think Dublin will want to foot that bill?
"Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs."
-John Jay, 1787

Dancing in the moonlight.
I wish that every kiss was never-ending.


An alternate history epic.

sa-wish!

Yorkers is a wealthy WASP playground inspired by L.L. Bean and Vineyard Vines catalogs and 19th Century Anglo-American nativism.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:08 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The investment might be. Singapore does just fine. If investors think they can make money off the UK they will invest. In fact now is the time to buy pounds.

Fun fact - the UK is not Singapore.
Astaliah wrote:My message, and I presume that of most Irish people is the following.

You are idiots, you will regret it. Typical English.

Oi. Waz.

Some of us voted to stay.


Sure the UK is not Singapore. Singapore is not the only wealthy non EU country either. The point is that some countries like Singapore adapt well to becoming separated. Others like the Phillipines did not.

We do not know yet how the UK will adapt.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Paredonia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 625
Founded: Aug 28, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Paredonia » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:09 pm

Dejanic wrote:I support Irish unification. NI has no place in the United Kingdom, it's Irish land and Britain should stay out of it. So this is a win win for me.


Well no, that's simply not true at all. It's NOT Irish land because it is part of the United Kingdom. Ireland is the one that should stay out of it until a majority of Northern Ireland want reunification, which I don't think they do despite what Sinn Fein says.
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User avatar
Greater Mackonia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5085
Founded: Sep 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Mackonia » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:09 pm

Kriga wrote:
Greater Mackonia wrote:
Oh, I misunderstood your accusation, my apologies.


How flowery with language you are.

Without a strong economy, there will not be a strong state for you to push your ideological agenda.


That was an entirely standard sentence of common English. If you thought that was flowery Top Gear must be your Proust.

What if I want to abolish the state?

Can't explain that.
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User avatar
The East Marches
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13843
Founded: May 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:09 pm

Maurepas wrote:
The East Marches wrote:
I've spent a bit of time there. Another poster could explain the system in more depth but they took great strides towards ending factionalism etc. They are attached to the tit of the UK. "Give us money or we'll bomb you" is the way a PSNI officer once explained NI reason for staying in the UK. If they end the money flow, then expect problems. I don't believe Westminster would be dumb enough to do that though.

That's the thing, I'm just basing this on the news articles I've read, but part of the reason for wanting to remain is there was significant money flow from the EU that will now dry up.


I read that the cost of Norn Iron to the UK government was something like 20 billion pounds, their contribution was only 9 billion pounds. That means they are 11 billion pounds in the red. Their overall GDP is only 40 billion pounds. Thats roughly 1/4 of their total economy coming from Westminster (Telegraph and BBC numbers) . I just fact checked myself on Wikipedia too, that puts it at 1/5 of their total economy coming from subsidies. I don't think Norn Iron will be leaving with that much delicious bait on the hook.
Last edited by The East Marches on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Conserative Morality wrote:Move to a real state bud instead of a third-world country that inexplicably votes in American elections.


Novus America wrote:But yes, I would say the mere existence of Illinois proves this is hell. Chicago the 9th circle.

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:09 pm

Novus America wrote:
Neu Leonstein wrote:Neither London nor Singapore are tax havens. Singapore can at a stretch be called an offshore financial centre, but it's nothing like real tax havens (you know, the Guernseys and Panamas of this world). The question is why financial institutions choose to set up in a particular location, and how different cities compete to be the most popular destination. Singapore has a developed legal system and historical trade links, a multi-lingual and well-educated population and the technological infrastructure. So, together with HK which benefits primarily from its easy access into China, it is a go-to place for fixed income and FX in the Asian time zones.

London also has those benefits (not tax though, in particular) and obviously a huge amount of history and inertia. But what do people actually do? Mostly they take money from, and serve the needs of, mainland European clients. There are plenty of hedge funds and investment firms based in London, but not only do those raise a lot of cash on the mainland, but you can't really run a market without big real money and corporate investors. The reason you can serve these clients from London is because in the EU regulations can't discriminate between countries and so there is no reason not to be based in London. But with Britain leaving, there will now be complex negotiations about which rules the UK regulators have to put in place to satisfy the EU regulators that regulation is no less stringent in London than it would be in Dublin, Paris or Frankfurt. If those fail, a lot of business will necessarily have to migrate from London to an EU alternative. London won't be finished as a financial centre, but it will lose ground relative to its competitors. Jamie Dimon said Brexit could mean a reduction in JP Morgan's UK workforce by a quarter.


The point is what the investment is for. The reasons to invest in Singapore are not really applicable to the UK. And the reasons to invest in a UK in the single market are nowhere near as compelling for a UK out of the single market. So the question is what the UK has to offer. Singapore holds no lessons in that regard.


The U.K. has a favorable tax and regulatory struture and a well educated English speaking population. It has a lot to offer. Will the UK be able to leverage those he fits outside the EU? Maybe. Maybe not. We shall see.

Pretty sure Singapore is waaaay ahead of us in the education tables. Speaking English doesn't matter. Any big financial centre speaks English.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Arkinesia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13210
Founded: Aug 22, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Arkinesia » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:10 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
"It is now important for Texas to look to #Brexit as an inspiration and an example that Texans can also take control of our destiny," group president Daniel Miller said in a statement Thursday.

Wowee

Only Texas could look at a currency losing 8% of its value in a few hours and say “I'll have what they're having.”
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Dejanic
Senator
 
Posts: 4677
Founded: Nov 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dejanic » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:10 pm

Paredonia wrote:
Dejanic wrote:I support Irish unification. NI has no place in the United Kingdom, it's Irish land and Britain should stay out of it. So this is a win win for me.


Well no, that's simply not true at all. It's NOT Irish land because it is part of the United Kingdom. Ireland is the one that should stay out of it until a majority of Northern Ireland want reunification, which I don't think they do despite what Sinn Fein says.

Well I disagree with it being part of the UK, that's my point. I'd be happy if we kicked them out and gave them back to Ireland.
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Neu Leonstein
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5771
Founded: Oct 23, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Neu Leonstein » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:10 pm

Maurepas wrote:That's the thing, I'm just basing this on the news articles I've read, but part of the reason for wanting to remain is there was significant money flow from the EU that will now dry up.

Yeah, but even when EU money is involved, the debate doesn't suddenly turn rational: http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 97012.html
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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19622
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:11 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
psst: "negotiate a trade deal" means "the UK will continue to follow EU regulations and have freedom of movement in exchange for access to the common market"


Bargaining power is on the UK, though. As a sovereign entity, the UK can pick and choose what deals it wants to make instead of being forced to abide to the EU's deals.


the bargaining power is with the EU because literally the entire point of an organization like the EU is to give them massive bargaining power over single states like the UK which is why we were in it

we can play their game or fuck off and due to geographical and political realities we are very much inclined towards the "play their game option". china and the US have already stated they won't be falling heads over heels to make trade deals with us because... why would they? their political capital is best spent elsewhere. like, say, negotiating a deal with the world's largest trading bloc.
Last edited by Souseiseki on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:11 pm

The East Marches wrote:
Maurepas wrote:That's the thing, I'm just basing this on the news articles I've read, but part of the reason for wanting to remain is there was significant money flow from the EU that will now dry up.


I read that the cost of Norn Iron to the UK government was something like 20 billion pounds, their contribution was only 9 billion pounds. That means they are 11 billion pounds in the red. Their overall GDP is only 40 billion pounds. Thats roughly 1/4 of their total economy coming from Westminster (Telegraph and BBC numbers) . I just fact checked myself on Wikipedia too, that puts it at 1/5 of their total economy coming from subsidies. I don't think Norn Iron will be leaving with that much delicious bait on the hook.

They're not talking about going it alone as Independent Norn Iron, the topic on the table is reunification with the Republic of Ireland.
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PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Yorkers
Minister
 
Posts: 2488
Founded: Oct 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Yorkers » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:11 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
"It is now important for Texas to look to #Brexit as an inspiration and an example that Texans can also take control of our destiny," group president Daniel Miller said in a statement Thursday.


Wowee


Okay Texan secession from the United States is not related to Brexit.

What this should inspire is an American withdrawal from NAFTA.
"Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs."
-John Jay, 1787

Dancing in the moonlight.
I wish that every kiss was never-ending.


An alternate history epic.

sa-wish!

Yorkers is a wealthy WASP playground inspired by L.L. Bean and Vineyard Vines catalogs and 19th Century Anglo-American nativism.

User avatar
Kelinfort
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16394
Founded: Nov 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kelinfort » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:11 pm

Yorkers wrote:
Kelinfort wrote:
Wowee


Okay Texan secession from the United States is not related to Brexit.

What this should inspire is an American withdrawal from NAFTA.

No.

User avatar
The East Marches
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13843
Founded: May 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:12 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
The East Marches wrote:
I read that the cost of Norn Iron to the UK government was something like 20 billion pounds, their contribution was only 9 billion pounds. That means they are 11 billion pounds in the red. Their overall GDP is only 40 billion pounds. Thats roughly 1/4 of their total economy coming from Westminster (Telegraph and BBC numbers) . I just fact checked myself on Wikipedia too, that puts it at 1/5 of their total economy coming from subsidies. I don't think Norn Iron will be leaving with that much delicious bait on the hook.

They're not talking about going it alone as Independent Norn Iron, the topic on the table is reunification with the Republic of Ireland.


Would reunification be able to give them the same money? I doubt it. They will stay with whoever fattens their wallets the most the greedy bastards.
Conserative Morality wrote:Move to a real state bud instead of a third-world country that inexplicably votes in American elections.


Novus America wrote:But yes, I would say the mere existence of Illinois proves this is hell. Chicago the 9th circle.

User avatar
Yorkers
Minister
 
Posts: 2488
Founded: Oct 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Yorkers » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:12 pm

Souseiseki wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Bargaining power is on the UK, though. As a sovereign entity, the UK can pick and choose what deals it wants to make instead of being forced to abide to the EU's deals.


the bargaining power is with the EU because literally the entire point of an organization like the EU is to give them massive bargaining power over single states like the UK which is why we were in it

we can play their game or fuck off and due to geographical and political realities we are very much inclined towards the "play their game option". china and the US have already stated they won't be falling heads over heels to make trade deals with us because... why would they? their political capital is best spent elsewhere. like, say, negotiating a deal with the world's largest trading bloc.


Trump said he would, and he'll be grooving his way into the Oval Office pretty soon.
"Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs."
-John Jay, 1787

Dancing in the moonlight.
I wish that every kiss was never-ending.


An alternate history epic.

sa-wish!

Yorkers is a wealthy WASP playground inspired by L.L. Bean and Vineyard Vines catalogs and 19th Century Anglo-American nativism.

User avatar
Corrian
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 73682
Founded: Mar 19, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Corrian » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:12 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
"It is now important for Texas to look to #Brexit as an inspiration and an example that Texans can also take control of our destiny," group president Daniel Miller said in a statement Thursday.


Wowee

Bye Texas!
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User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:12 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
"It is now important for Texas to look to #Brexit as an inspiration and an example that Texans can also take control of our destiny," group president Daniel Miller said in a statement Thursday.


Wowee

As a Texan Miller should go fuck himself.
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User avatar
Yorkers
Minister
 
Posts: 2488
Founded: Oct 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Yorkers » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:12 pm

Kelinfort wrote:
Yorkers wrote:
Okay Texan secession from the United States is not related to Brexit.

What this should inspire is an American withdrawal from NAFTA.

No.


Yes. NAFTA is shit.
"Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs."
-John Jay, 1787

Dancing in the moonlight.
I wish that every kiss was never-ending.


An alternate history epic.

sa-wish!

Yorkers is a wealthy WASP playground inspired by L.L. Bean and Vineyard Vines catalogs and 19th Century Anglo-American nativism.

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