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Trump bringing back waterboarding and worse

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Celseon
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Postby Celseon » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:58 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:I don't recommend using torture to extract confessions.

If you're trying to extract time-sensitive information, you need to make a cost-benefit calculation and decide who is worth interrogating and who is not. If done economically and strategically, it can be a good tool for getting the information you need (its superior to just randomly sending out your agents on a completely random goose chase in the alternative).


Oh, but why shouldn't we use torture to extract confessions? Aren't you the one saying that if a guilty party were brought in and tortured they would eventually confess guilt, that by the virtues of good common sense and human nature only a small minority of the truly guilty would ever withhold confessions of guilt if tortured? Isn't that exactly what you've been saying, only applied to police departments instead of intelligence agencies? Why shouldn't police departments use torture strategically and economically so as to save themselves time and resources that could be better put to investigating and capturing the next violent criminal? Aren't you the one saying that torture can spare people wild goose chases under time-sensitive circumstances?

Could it perhaps be that the information extracted by police departments from torture programmes wouldn't be meaningful or reliable? That there would be a lot of noise blocking out the signal as people confessed irrespective of guilt in order to cease the torment, even if only temporarily? Think about where else this sort of reasoning could apply. Where else it has been empirically shown to apply.

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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:11 am

Ralkovian Grand Island wrote:
Zane Winchester Scott wrote:Trump is taking suspected people. Knowing him and his previous statements he will probably just say "anyone from the middle east is a terrorist"


Well #1 Arabs are caucasian. So not racism.
#2 Muslims are not a race either.
#3 Muslims can come from multiple races and ethnicities.

So you'd be wrong on racism.


That's hardly how racism works.

The divisions of races are entirely subjective - at one point for example Irish weren't fully accepted as "white". It's not like race is an actual biological reality anyway.

There's many European Jews in Israel who hold racial bias against Moroccan Jews and vice versa, for instance.
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Unstoppable Empire of Doom
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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:48 am

I'm not sure why Republicans like Trump after he spends 10 minutes saying things like "America is weak, we lose at everything, America sucks, we lose at wars, Americans are pathetic, you all are weak, America is worst country NA, China is great, China is better than America, America is pathetic and weak and sucks and is last." Then you hear 5 minutes of cheering.

Does America need to surrender what little moral high ground it has left when dealing with terrorists? I don't know to be honest but I sure as hell hope not.
Whoever said "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" has clearly never drown a horse.

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:53 am

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:I'm not sure why Republicans like Trump after he spends 10 minutes saying things like "America is weak, we lose at everything, America sucks, we lose at wars, Americans are pathetic, you all are weak, America is worst country NA, China is great, China is better than America, America is pathetic and weak and sucks and is last." Then you hear 5 minutes of cheering.


Because generally speaking, that is how Republicans really view America under Barack Obama. They don't like it now but they especially don't like how the country is changing. That getting Trump or another Republican nominee elected will be an improvement. The perception is that Obama doesn't know what the hell he is doing so far as the ISIS war and foreign policy goes.
Last edited by Saiwania on Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Latlandia
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Postby Latlandia » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:07 am

NO to waterboarding!
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Protector Galactics
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Postby Protector Galactics » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:38 am

I believe that terrorist that do harm to other people should be given a punishment for the pain they have caused. I believe in an eye for an eye.
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:45 am

That is unrelated to the thread topic though.
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Protector Galactics
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Postby Protector Galactics » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:48 am

Allanea wrote:That is unrelated to the thread topic though.

When I say "Punishment" I refer to Waterboarding.
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Protector Galactics
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Postby Protector Galactics » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:49 am

Allanea wrote:That is unrelated to the thread topic though.

Or in other words people such as terrorist should be tortured by waterboarding.
Krenzianism is a belief which workers are placed in their talented jobs to do the workforce strong. It also ruled by a Monarch (Or the Emperor) The Emperor can also be voted to be overthrown if too Power abusive. The Capital is led by Capitalmen or the leaders of ministries. (More like Senators)

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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:49 am

The post isn't about waterboarding as punishment, it's about waterboarding people whose guilt hasn't been proven yet.
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DefinitelyNotGay
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Postby DefinitelyNotGay » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:56 am

Waterboarding should be part of the toolkit to extract information out of terrorists. I never understood why some people have a problem with it.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:57 am

DefinitelyNotGay wrote:Waterboarding should be part of the toolkit to extract information out of terrorists. I never understood why some people have a problem with it.

Because we left the dark ages in the past.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:59 am

DefinitelyNotGay wrote:Waterboarding should be part of the toolkit to extract information out of terrorists. I never understood why some people have a problem with it.


Because it doesn't work, and because the people the US ended up torturing sometimes turned out to be not actually terrorists.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:01 pm

So it seems that Donald Trump support is split between people who genuinely believe that he best represents their interests and what will be good for America, and people who "want to watch the world burn."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... rs/401408/
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:01 pm

Saiwania wrote:So it seems that Donald Trump support is split between people who genuinely believe that he best represents their interests and what will be good for America, and people who "want to watch the world burn."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... rs/401408/

Which are you?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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DefinitelyNotGay
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Postby DefinitelyNotGay » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:01 pm

Allanea wrote:
DefinitelyNotGay wrote:Waterboarding should be part of the toolkit to extract information out of terrorists. I never understood why some people have a problem with it.


Because it doesn't work, and because the people the US ended up torturing sometimes turned out to be not actually terrorists.

If it wouldn't work, they wouldn't be using it. It's up to the CIA to evaluate it's effectiveness.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:02 pm

DefinitelyNotGay wrote:
Allanea wrote:
Because it doesn't work, and because the people the US ended up torturing sometimes turned out to be not actually terrorists.

If it wouldn't work, they wouldn't be using it. It's up to the CIA to evaluate it's effectiveness.

Congress investigated the CIA using their own documentation.

It didn't work.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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DefinitelyNotGay
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Postby DefinitelyNotGay » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:04 pm

Galloism wrote:
DefinitelyNotGay wrote:Waterboarding should be part of the toolkit to extract information out of terrorists. I never understood why some people have a problem with it.

Because we left the dark ages in the past.

Waterboarding is hardly comparable to medieval style torture. The reality is, we need tough interrogation techniques.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:06 pm

DefinitelyNotGay wrote:
Galloism wrote:Because we left the dark ages in the past.

Waterboarding is hardly comparable to medieval style torture. The reality is, we need tough interrogation techniques.

Except torture (which is what waterboarding is) actually undermines our ability to get good information, and gives us more made up bullshit, as congress found.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Alien Space Bats
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Re: Trump bringing back waterboarding and worse

Postby Alien Space Bats » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:06 pm

Allanea wrote:That is unrelated to the thread topic though.

Actually, I don't think it is.

I don't think that people who advocate torture do so because they think it's effective.

I think they do so because they think that our enemies are (by definition) subhuman slime who DESERVE to be tortured.

IOW, it's not about whether torture is necessary or not, or about whether it works or not. These people want us to torture our adversaries because they thought of doing so makes them feel good.

It's all about posturing and playing tough.
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DefinitelyNotGay
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Postby DefinitelyNotGay » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:06 pm

Galloism wrote:
DefinitelyNotGay wrote:If it wouldn't work, they wouldn't be using it. It's up to the CIA to evaluate it's effectiveness.

Congress investigated the CIA using their own documentation.

It didn't work.

That report is high controversial and was politically motivated. Sorry, it's not the end all argument on the effectiveness on waterboarding you want to make it out to be.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:07 pm

DefinitelyNotGay wrote:
Galloism wrote:Congress investigated the CIA using their own documentation.

It didn't work.

That report is high controversial and was politically motivated. Sorry, it's not the end all argument on the effectiveness on waterboarding you want to make it out to be.

"We tortured innocent people" is quite an argument.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:08 pm

Galloism wrote:Which are you?


I really think Trump can do a great job compared to Obama or Hillary. If Trump does outrageous things, how much damage can he really do?
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken!

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:09 pm

DefinitelyNotGay wrote:
Galloism wrote:Because we left the dark ages in the past.

Waterboarding is hardly comparable to medieval style torture. The reality is, we need tough interrogation techniques.


no actually we don't. we need modern interrogation techniques that get reliable information out of willing interrogees. it works far better than torture.
whatever

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:09 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Galloism wrote:Which are you?


I really think Trump can do a great job compared to Obama or Hillary. If Trump does outrageous things, how much damage can he really do?

I shudder to think.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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