Trump bringing back waterboarding and worse

[Protector Galactics]

Yeah, of all the idiotic things being brought up by Trump and Sanders this is the one to get upset over.

And yet again, for some weird reason, his approval numbers will go up.

[Gauthier]

Do you want to do away with the rights of prisoners of war? Then brace yourself for a return to far darker times, and be ready to put up with the consequences of disregarding the fundamental human rights of unarmed, imprisoned human beings who are supposed to be under your care.

This asked to the Game of Thrones fanboy.

[Gauthier]

There you go!

Killing or wounding an enemy combatant during battle is legitimate because the enemy combatant is actually fighting you and posing a threat to you or others. But when you capture said enemy combatant, that enemy combatant is your prisoner, and for over a century, it has been agreed upon by pretty much everyone who wasn't a totalitarian dictator or the leader of a terrorist organization that prisoners of war are supposed to be kept safe and in good health. Capturing them doesn't give you the right to inflict physical or psychological harm upon them.

Do you want to do away with the rights of prisoners of war? Then brace yourself for a return to far darker times, and be ready to put up with the consequences of disregarding the fundamental human rights of unarmed, imprisoned human beings who are supposed to be under your care.

Why do prisoners of war even have rights, for God's sake? They're the enemy, and should be treated accordingly.

Don't complain when the other side does the same or worse to your troops.

[Liriena]

There you go!

Killing or wounding an enemy combatant during battle is legitimate because the enemy combatant is actually fighting you and posing a threat to you or others. But when you capture said enemy combatant, that enemy combatant is your prisoner, and for over a century, it has been agreed upon by pretty much everyone who wasn't a totalitarian dictator or the leader of a terrorist organization that prisoners of war are supposed to be kept safe and in good health. Capturing them doesn't give you the right to inflict physical or psychological harm upon them.

Do you want to do away with the rights of prisoners of war? Then brace yourself for a return to far darker times, and be ready to put up with the consequences of disregarding the fundamental human rights of unarmed, imprisoned human beings who are supposed to be under your care.

Why do prisoners of war even have rights, for God's sake?

For the same reason civilians from an enemy country have rights in times of war. Because the military killing defenseless, unarmed people is an unacceptable atrocity.

Say you had a close relative, someone you love dearly, and that relative was a soldier in a war. Now, imagine said relative surrendered. Would you want said relative to be tortured or killed by your enemies while in their custody?

They're the enemy, and should be treated accordingly.

Says who? You? It's you against over a century of overwhelming international consensus.

[Gauthier]

Why do prisoners of war even have rights, for God's sake?

For the same reason civilians from an enemy country have rights in times of war. Because the military killing defenseless, unarmed people is an unacceptable atrocity.

Say you had a close relative, someone you love dearly, and that relative was a soldier in a war. Now, imagine said relative surrendered. Would you want said relative to be tortured or killed by your enemies while in their custody?

They're the enemy, and should be treated accordingly.

Says who? You? It's you against over a century of overwhelming international consensus.

Brand new account founded today. Definitely a legitimate poster with valid opinions that must be argued down.

[Alyakia]

There you go!

Killing or wounding an enemy combatant during battle is legitimate because the enemy combatant is actually fighting you and posing a threat to you or others. But when you capture said enemy combatant, that enemy combatant is your prisoner, and for over a century, it has been agreed upon by pretty much everyone who wasn't a totalitarian dictator or the leader of a terrorist organization that prisoners of war are supposed to be kept safe and in good health. Capturing them doesn't give you the right to inflict physical or psychological harm upon them.

Do you want to do away with the rights of prisoners of war? Then brace yourself for a return to far darker times, and be ready to put up with the consequences of disregarding the fundamental human rights of unarmed, imprisoned human beings who are supposed to be under your care.

Why do prisoners of war even have rights, for God's sake? They're the enemy, and should be treated accordingly.

i thought this was a joke at first but now i can't tell

[Lumpenprolitaria]

More than likely Trump thinks waterboarding is the ALS ice bucket challenge.

[American Imperial State]

As if you could single-handedly control that.

Actually, i wouldn't mind being dictator. But if a communist dictatorship came to power and i was still alive, it was because i didn't die preventing it.

Why not? Their crimes would be just as bad as ISIS. I'm talking about American murderers, rapists and torturers. What makes their crimes less deserving of torture than those of ISIS members?

Well, it depends. We've still got a majority human population.

And your disagreement is grounded in... what exactly?

It's hard to resist when there's no one left to join ISIS.

Except you are. You are advocating for mass torture and murder.

I think for it to qualify as 'murder,' they have to be sufficiently human. and we're talking about terrorists, here.

So, you want the United States to forsake any pretense of being a civilized state, disregard over a century of American and European efforts to prevent atrocities from being committed during wars, and just be given carte blanche to freely murder and torture its way through its enemies?

We won't act towards other human beings in the same manner we act toward terrorist savages.

Yet they remain human, and have human rights. Even the world's worst criminals have human rights.

Nope, not human. We're not fighting Germans or french here, we're fighting terrorists.

Spoken like a true wannabe tyrant. Ruling through fear like a common thug, showing off how savage you are, while pretending you are better than the people you are abusing.
It's as repulsive as it is pathetic.

Well, i'm a human being for starters. The terrorists, not so much. I don't mind ruling over these terrorist scumbags through fear, and i don't give a shit if ISIS thinks i'm civilized or not. The only thing pathetic about it is how these ISIS would cry for their Allah.

[Liriena]

As if you could single-handedly control that.

Actually, i wouldn't mind being dictator.

That's just adorable.

Why not? Their crimes would be just as bad as ISIS. I'm talking about American murderers, rapists and torturers. What makes their crimes less deserving of torture than those of ISIS members?

Well, it depends. We've still got a majority human population.

What makes American rapists, murderers and torturers more human than ISIS rapists, murders and torturers?

Seriously, if you are going to support gross human rights violations, at least be consistent.

And your disagreement is grounded in... what exactly?

It's hard to resist when there's no one left to join ISIS.

So, mass murder is the answer to all of life's problems?

Except you are. You are advocating for mass torture and murder.

I think for it to qualify as 'murder,' they have to be sufficiently human. and we're talking about terrorists, here.

Terrorists are still human, my dear ITG. I'm sorry if reality refuses to cooperate with your attempts to excuse your own immorality.

So, you want the United States to forsake any pretense of being a civilized state, disregard over a century of American and European efforts to prevent atrocities from being committed during wars, and just be given carte blanche to freely murder and torture its way through its enemies?

We won't act towards other human beings in the same manner we act toward terrorist savages.

Terrorist "savages" are still human beings, and how can you guarantee that only "terrorist savages" are going to fall victim to this brutality you advocate for? How can you guarantee that not a single innocent person will be a victim of the atrocities you support?

Yet they remain human, and have human rights. Even the world's worst criminals have human rights.

Nope, not human. We're not fighting Germans or french here, we're fighting terrorists.

Yes, still human. Still homo sapiens, still people with a human identity and a human mind. Find a better excuse for your immorality than some stupid attempt at dehumanization.

Spoken like a true wannabe tyrant. Ruling through fear like a common thug, showing off how savage you are, while pretending you are better than the people you are abusing.
It's as repulsive as it is pathetic.

Well, i'm a human being for starters.

Given the fact that you support something as despicable as torture, I think I'm going to take the liberty to follow your example and question your humanity. Hope you don't mind.

The terrorists, not so much. I don't mind ruling over these terrorist scumbags through fear, and i don't give a shit if ISIS thinks i'm civilized or not. The only thing pathetic about it is how these ISIS would cry for their Allah.

Woooooooow, you're so tough. I'm so impressed.

[Celseon]

Except unlike Imperial Japan, our enemies are not Americans who send their prisoners to camps where they're treated really, really well by 20th century POW standards. No, our enemies are rapists and murderers whose sole goal in life is to reach Allah by killing innocent people.

Our enemies are not Japanese, who work only to advance the cause of Asian co-prosperity and use extreme measures only where and when they are warranted. No, our enemies are either barbarians and fools who desperately cling to the hopelessly lost prospect that Asia can survive in the age of Western imperialism as a piecemeal scattering of independent territories rather than as a singular geopolitical bloc or traitors who wish to sell Asia's peoples into servitude in exchange for fleeting comfort and safety at their masters' feet.

Ultranationalist rhetoric can cut either direction, it seems.

[Infected Mushroom]

Except a blanket ban on torture in all scenarios privileges the human rights of terrorists over the rights of innocents to live and be safe. Its not a very empathetic position really.

Its also a bit of a double standard because apparently its okay to kill terrorists or to injure them permanently in combat... but its not okay to torture them for a few minutes to extract information that could save lives. The knee-jerk reaction against torture is getting tiresome and it exemplifies a typical response to catchphrases (we've been programmed to have such a knee-jerk bad reaction against words like ''torture'' that we don't pause and think about the contextual nuances).

We want the moral upper hand so we should not stoop to their "lows". Want to make America great again? Then demand we behave accordingly. Which is not something that the Trumpians actually want. They're the playground bullies who think that not bullying is a sign of weakness.

The greatness of a country depends on how much it is feared and how much firepower and economic power it commands, not on having the moral high ground. At any rate, the moral high ground doesn't involve privileging the rights of terrorist suspects over the right of innocent people to live and be safe in all contexts.

[Gauthier]

The greatness of a country depends on how much it is feared and how much firepower and economic power it commands, not on having the moral high ground.

Look how that fared for Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

[Infected Mushroom]

What are you talking about?

Have you actually read any of the reports made over the past few years on the effectiveness of torture? The consensus seems to be that it doesn't really work, and it hasn't actually served to prevent attacks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-dooley/how-cia-torture-didnt-pre_b_6373350.html

Don't be ridiculous.

You are the one being ridiculous. There's a large body of evidence suggesting that torture is useless, and yet here you are, making excuses for it.

if you had terrorist information and you were tortured for it, I am fairly certain you would give them what they want within a reasonable time frame (same goes for anyone else really).

And you would probably be wrong.
http://detaineetaskforce.org/pdf/Chapter-7_True-and-False-Confessions-Efficacy-of-Torture.pdf

Pro-tip: Just because movies and TV shows make it look like it's the best tool to get a useful, last minute confession, doesn't mean it actually is.

Its easy to be tough behind a keyboard and say, ''Well it doesn't work. If they torture me, I'll just keep wasting their time and give them red herrings.'

I'm not being "tough behind a keyboard", I'm being factual. The only ones being tought behind a keyboard are those going out of their way to excuse torture, with no actual evidence to substantiate their claims other than, from what I can gather, misconceptions that I'd blame on the fact that the American cultural industry has gone out of its way to glorify tough action heroes who torture their way towards saving the world.

But when you face torture that will be the last thing you will be thinking.

And how do you know, exactly? Have you ever been tortured?

Forgive me for not taking the ''torture doesn't work, the terrorists will just hold out indefinitely'' very seriously. Its just one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said "torture doesn't work", period. And actual research seems to support that assertion.

The research is completely ridiculous and ignorant of human nature, Period. We are not Jesus Christs, we don't stay on the cross to make a statement; when we're in pain, we want the pain to stop (in fact, we need it to stop).

''Torture doesn't work''; that is sincerely (and I'm not joking), one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

If someone is tortured, they will do anything to stop the torture (that's how we are wired as human beings). If you have information, you're going to reveal it. If I have information, I'm going to reveal it. ''Torture doesn't work'' is sincerely one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. It is indeed the case that if someone has no information, torture isn't going to magically create new information. But if someone has relevant information, they sure as hell are going to reveal it.

Its one thing to say ''I can't stomach torture, therefore we shouldn't ever do it'' (we can at least debate that)... but to then go, ''Mechanically, torture doesn't work. People aren't going to reveal what they know even if tortured, they will stick it out.'' That's just plain ridiculous.

[Gauthier]

If someone is tortured, they will do anything to stop the torture (that's how we are wired as human beings).

Which is "Tell Them What They Want To Hear." Even if it's complete bullshit. That's why torture was historically used by the Catholic Church to get "confessions" out of apostates and heretic during the Inquisitions.

[Infected Mushroom]

If someone is tortured, they will do anything to stop the torture (that's how we are wired as human beings).

Which is "Tell Them What They Want To Hear." Even if it's complete bullshit. That's why torture was historically used by the Catholic Church to get "confessions" out of apostates and heretic during the Inquisitions.

If they have real information in the process, they sure as hell are going to reveal it.

Or are you suggesting we are all meta-humans who are prepared to die to hold on to vital information?

[Liriena]

Have you actually read any of the reports made over the past few years on the effectiveness of torture? The consensus seems to be that it doesn't really work, and it hasn't actually served to prevent attacks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-dooley/how-cia-torture-didnt-pre_b_6373350.html


You are the one being ridiculous. There's a large body of evidence suggesting that torture is useless, and yet here you are, making excuses for it.


And you would probably be wrong.
http://detaineetaskforce.org/pdf/Chapter-7_True-and-False-Confessions-Efficacy-of-Torture.pdf

Pro-tip: Just because movies and TV shows make it look like it's the best tool to get a useful, last minute confession, doesn't mean it actually is.


I'm not being "tough behind a keyboard", I'm being factual. The only ones being tought behind a keyboard are those going out of their way to excuse torture, with no actual evidence to substantiate their claims other than, from what I can gather, misconceptions that I'd blame on the fact that the American cultural industry has gone out of its way to glorify tough action heroes who torture their way towards saving the world.


And how do you know, exactly? Have you ever been tortured?


Don't put words in my mouth. I said "torture doesn't work", period. And actual research seems to support that assertion.

The research is completely ridiculous and ignorant of human nature, Period.

[citation needed]

''Torture doesn't work''; that is sincerely (and I'm not joking), one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

If it's so ridiculous, then I suppose you can cite cases in which it worked?

[Republic of Canador]

Which is "Tell Them What They Want To Hear." Even if it's complete bullshit. That's why torture was historically used by the Catholic Church to get "confessions" out of apostates and heretic during the Inquisitions.

If they have real information in the process, they sure as hell are going to reveal it.

Or are you suggesting we are all meta-humans who are prepared to die to hold on to vital information?

Or, ya know you can waste resources by purposly giving false information.

[Atomic Utopia]

So... were gonna make all Muslims carry ID badges and track them, execute the families of terrorists, torture people for information, and bar the movement of Muslims into this country.

How long until he proposes we deport Muslims to the east?

[Saiwania]

This asked to the Game of Thrones fanboy.

Enjoy.

[The Princes of the Universe]

So... were gonna make all Muslims carry ID badges and track them, execute the families of terrorists, torture people for information, and bar the movement of Muslims into this country.
How long until he proposes we deport Muslims to the east?

Don't give him any ideas.

[Infected Mushroom]

The research is completely ridiculous and ignorant of human nature, Period.

[citation needed]

''Torture doesn't work''; that is sincerely (and I'm not joking), one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

If it's so ridiculous, then I suppose you can cite cases in which it worked?

I don't need a citation to tell you about basic human behaviour. When you touch fire, you're going to experience pain and withdraw your hand (unless your nerves don't work). Its human nature and a human need to avoid pain at all cost.

Therefore, it follows from common sense that if a suspect has vital information that we want, torture is a reliable way of extracting that.

[Republic of Canador]

So... were gonna make all Muslims carry ID badges and track them, execute the families of terrorists, torture people for information, and bar the movement of Muslims into this country.

How long until he proposes we deport Muslims to the east?

Nonsense. Obviously a concentrated population of Muslims is far too risky. We must send them all to opposite corners of the globe.

[Infected Mushroom]

If they have real information in the process, they sure as hell are going to reveal it.

Or are you suggesting we are all meta-humans who are prepared to die to hold on to vital information?

Or, ya know you can waste resources by purposly giving false information.

That wouldn't end the procedure for them. They would eventually be forced to talk.

[Miarie]

I support crucifixion and the Roman way of threatening to crucify suspects' children or other family members to extract information from them (the suspect).

[Infected Mushroom]

Do you want to do away with the rights of prisoners of war? Then brace yourself for a return to far darker times, and be ready to put up with the consequences of disregarding the fundamental human rights of unarmed, imprisoned human beings who are supposed to be under your care.

This asked to the Game of Thrones fanboy.

If you have something to say that is actually on topic, I would like to hear it. That would be a nice change.