Trump bringing back waterboarding and worse

[Gauthier]

I'm tired of all this talk about 'human rights' and the constitution blah blah blah.

Those human rights, and that constitution, protect you from falling victim to people who would do unto you as you fantasize about doing unto others. Here's a thing about living without human rights: there's no guarantee you won't ever be the target of the totalitarian atrocities you yearn for.

In light of that, I strongly recommend that you grow up, take a good look around, and rethink your flippant disregard for human rights, in favour of a "tough", edgy idealization of lawless violence as a tool to solve all of the world's problems..

When dealing with these enemies of the State, we must ask ourselves; What would Hitler do if confronted with a situation like ISIS? I guarantee you there would be no ISIS by now. Why? Because he didn't give a shit about public opinion or human rights. He just took care of business.

Yeah, he took care business such as those pesky Jews, LGBT+ people, Romani and Slavs. And it's not like his entire regime ended up collapsing under the weight of its own insanity, after dragging the world into one of the most devastating wars in human history, and causing the deaths of millions of innocent people in the name of his own delusions.

Quite a good role model you've got there.

These ISIS guys, i don't even think we can consider them human beings.

Yes, we can. They are homo sapiens, and nothing they do can change that. Monstruous as their actions may be, they remain human, and they should be judged as such.

I know how tempting it is to dehumanize those that upset us. It makes wishing them to suffer the worst cruelties imaginable a lot easier. It helps blind us to how horrid the things we are asking for truly are, helps us to avoid the immorality of our thoughts, and keep the moral high ground even as we embrace sadistic fantasies driven by mindless cruelty.

It's also hollow, and lazy.

How much would you like to bet this guy threw a bitchfit about how Imperial Japan treated their prisoners (even Americans) during World War 2? Because he's pretty much advocating the country act exactly like Imperial Japan.

[American Imperial State]

I'm more worried about the Left and their empathizing with the terrorists. We're dealing with inhuman savages, the guys who fly planes into buildings because their Allah says they'll get 72 virgin goats. You suggest that wanting to exterminate these scumbags is 'bloodthirsty and sociopathic', obviously you haven't been watching the news while they were slowly cutting the heads off of Americans while taunting us. You were probably AWOL when they started putting people in cages and dropping them into pools of water to drown to death, or when they douse pilots in gasoline and burn them alive. Not to mention when they just plain up shoot innocent people and enslave women for sexual purposes. When you refer to ISIS as terrorists, i find it humorous you put it in quotation marks and then compare us to terrorists because we want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

There is no comparison, they are not "terrorists", they are terrorists. I could care less if you ripped out their toenails and gouged out their little eyeballs.

You must have forgotten about the agressive warmonger GW Bush and his illegal Iraq war that (including the fallout) has already killed a million people and displaced millions more. Maybe some people are tired of Americans bombing and drone striking wedding parties and churches/mosques in their countries, or our support for brutal dictatorships meaning that many people cannot express their frustration by voting for other politicians leaving only one path open to them.

Cause and effect.

Maybe that is true for some people, but ISIS is just a bunch of people who are manipulating the ignorant into doing their bidding for their own purposes. Unless you believe that Al Baghdadi was really assigned by God to be caliph of some worldwide caliphate. He and his cronies are manipulating ignorant people for his own gain. The power vacum created by the Iraq war was no doubt vital to ISIS's rise, but ISIS does not exist to 'avenge' the Iraq war. The Iraq war was just an opportunity, not the end goal or even the objective.

[Liriena]

Sure we can, because they are human beings and by not choosing to try and understand why they act the way they do.
Your only "choosing" to prolong the resentment and anger which is directed at the civilized world, only then prevents positive change which will make such acts and aggression that ISIS and people like them do, eventually and truly become a thing of the past.
Empathy and working on bridging our bonds is the only way we will move forward, otherwise we move backwards and lose everything.

Yes, i agree. the only path forward in the 21st century is to try and understand the terrorists and why they drown people alive, cut peoples heads off, kill and rape little kids, or enslave women for sexual purposes. I mean, what's a little gasoline and a lighter between friends, right?

We shouldn't be killing the terrorists, we should use empathy and work on bridging bonds between the United States and ISIS so that we can move forward. We should just accept and try to understand ISIS, they're just misunderstood's all. That was sarcasm, if it wasn't obvious.

No, their goal is to create a worldwide caliphate where anyone who disagrees with them gets their head chopped off. Sorry, you don't want your girlfriend to wear a burqa? Then we're going to stone you to death and put your daughters into sexual slavery(some allah, huh?)

I understand there are people in ISIS who are just mislead, forced into it or are kids(since they're recruiting those, now.) But most of ISIS, especially the mid and higher level leadership, are a bunch of thugs and scumbags. Murderers and rapists. The sooner we wipe them off the face of the earth, the sooner we can go back to actually doing things that positively affect the middle east. Like, you know, education and jobs.

And how does torture figure into this? You want to apply it as a form of punishment for members of ISIS? Before or after they are actually convicted of any crime? Clearly, you couldn't support torture as an actual tool to gather information, since we know for a fact that it doesn't work, so I can only assume that you support it solely for the purposes of sadistic "retribution".

[American Imperial State]

Yes, i agree. the only path forward in the 21st century is to try and understand the terrorists and why they drown people alive, cut peoples heads off, kill and rape little kids, or enslave women for sexual purposes. I mean, what's a little gasoline and a lighter between friends, right?

We shouldn't be killing the terrorists, we should use empathy and work on bridging bonds between the United States and ISIS so that we can move forward. We should just accept and try to understand ISIS, they're just misunderstood's all. That was sarcasm, if it wasn't obvious.

No, their goal is to create a worldwide caliphate where anyone who disagrees with them gets their head chopped off. Sorry, you don't want your girlfriend to wear a burqa? Then we're going to stone you to death and put your daughters into sexual slavery(some allah, huh?)

I understand there are people in ISIS who are just mislead, forced into it or are kids(since they're recruiting those, now.) But most of ISIS, especially the mid and higher level leadership, are a bunch of thugs and scumbags. Murderers and rapists. The sooner we wipe them off the face of the earth, the sooner we can go back to actually doing things that positively affect the middle east. Like, you know, education and jobs.

And how does torture figure into this? You want to apply it as a form of punishment for members of ISIS? Before or after they are actually convicted of any crime? Clearly, you couldn't support torture as an actual tool to gather information, since we know for a fact that it doesn't work, so I can only assume that you support it solely for the purposes of sadistic "retribution".

No, actually and ironically my purpose is humanitarian. They more they suffer on earth, the more they receive when they finally reach their Allah. I don't think we should go out of our way to torture them unless we have evidence they've committed some horrible crime, but i certainly won't shed any tears if something were to happen to al baghdadi.

But really, i'm just advocating taking off the gloves and dealing with ISIS in the harshest and most absolute terms. Without any reservation or restriction.

How much would you like to bet this guy threw a bitchfit about how Imperial Japan treated their prisoners (even Americans) during World War 2? Because he's pretty much advocating the country act exactly like Imperial Japan.

Except unlike Imperial Japan, our enemies are not Americans who send their prisoners to camps where they're treated really, really well by 20th century POW standards. No, our enemies are rapists and murderers whose sole goal in life is to reach Allah by killing innocent people.

[Liriena]

And how does torture figure into this? You want to apply it as a form of punishment for members of ISIS? Before or after they are actually convicted of any crime? Clearly, you couldn't support torture as an actual tool to gather information, since we know for a fact that it doesn't work, so I can only assume that you support it solely for the purposes of sadistic "retribution".

No, actually and ironically my purpose is humanitarian. They more they suffer on earth, the more they receive when they finally reach their Allah.

Awwwww, you're trying to be funny? How quaint.

I don't think we should go out of our way to torture them unless we have evidence they've committed some horrible crime, but i certainly won't shed any tears if something were to happen to al baghdadi.

Funny how you don't mention if they'd be convicted before or after being tortured, only if you had "evidence". I take it due process doesn't mean much to you?

Also, what horrible crimes are you talking about? Murder? Rape? Would you support gratuitously torturing non-Muslim American citizens who were convicted for similar crimes in American soil?

[Trumpostan]

You must have forgotten about the agressive warmonger GW Bush and his illegal Iraq war that (including the fallout) has already killed a million people and displaced millions more. Maybe some people are tired of Americans bombing and drone striking wedding parties and churches/mosques in their countries, or our support for brutal dictatorships meaning that many people cannot express their frustration by voting for other politicians leaving only one path open to them.

Cause and effect.

Maybe that is true for some people, but ISIS is just a bunch of people who are manipulating the ignorant into doing their bidding for their own purposes. Unless you believe that Al Baghdadi was really assigned by God to be caliph of some worldwide caliphate. He and his cronies are manipulating ignorant people for his own gain. The power vacum created by the Iraq war was no doubt vital to ISIS's rise, but ISIS does not exist to 'avenge' the Iraq war. The Iraq war was just an opportunity, not the end goal or even the objective.

The al-Baghdadis of this world take advantage of a power vacuum and the lack of a state apparatus which allows them to do what they want. The only reason it doesn't happen here is because there is a state apparatus to stop the fundies from imposing their views and an at least partially informed public who would not go along with it. But the likes of Santorum, Huckabee, Cruz, Kim Davis ea would not hesitate imposing their religious views if they could get away with it.

[Liriena]

But really, i'm just advocating taking off the gloves and dealing with ISIS in the harshest and most absolute terms. Without any reservation or restriction.

In other words, you want your military to commit war crimes.

Except unlike Imperial Japan, our enemies are not Americans who send their prisoners to camps where they're treated really, really well by 20th century POW standards. No, our enemies are rapists and murderers whose sole goal in life is to reach Allah by killing innocent people.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Not even here. Much like, in World War II, the Holocaust did not justify the Japanese internment camps, the atrocities committed by ISIS won't justify any atrocities committed by anti-ISIS forces.

[American Imperial State]

Awwwww, you're trying to be funny? How quaint.

I actually find killing terrorists quite hilarious.

Funny how you don't mention if they'd be convicted before or after being tortured, only if you had "evidence". I take it due process doesn't mean much to you?

We'll arrange some sort of court on the spot to try them.

Also, what horrible crimes are you talking about? Murder? Rape? Would you support gratuitously torturing non-Muslim American citizens who were convicted for similar crimes in American soil?

Oh, the major guys. Al-baghdadi, that one british guy who cut Americans throats for TV(we've already got his ass so i'm a little late on that one,) people who have tortured, raped or executed. The real bad guys. As for the Americans thing, they're under the constitution because they're citizens.

In other words, you want your military to commit war crimes.

By international definition, Yes.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Not even here. Much like, in World War II, the Holocaust did not justify the Japanese internment camps, the atrocities committed by ISIS won't justify any atrocities committed by anti-ISIS forces.

Well, they've forfeited their right to exist. How can you commit a 'wrong' against something that does not even meet the minimum qualifications for deserving to live? I'm talking about the people who have committed murder, rape and torture themselves. They've fired their first shot, we should fire the last.

[American Imperial State]

The al-Baghdadis of this world take advantage of a power vacuum and the lack of a state apparatus which allows them to do what they want. The only reason it doesn't happen here is because there is a state apparatus to stop the fundies from imposing their views and an at least partially informed public who would not go along with it. But the likes of Santorum, Huckabee, Cruz, Kim Davis ea would not hesitate imposing their religious views if they could get away with it.

So, apologize for terrorism by comparing it to religious leaders in the U.S.?

No comparison. Kim Davis, Cruz, Santorum et al might have some rather funky beliefs, but they're not running international terrorist organizations that deal in death, rape, torture and enslavement.

[Liriena]

Awwwww, you're trying to be funny? How quaint.

I actually find killing terrorists quite hilarious.

Definitely not a good sign.

Funny how you don't mention if they'd be convicted before or after being tortured, only if you had "evidence". I take it due process doesn't mean much to you?

We'll arrange some sort of court on the spot to try them.

So, no fair trials?

No thanks.

Do you seriously desire to live under a government that has such power? As I said before, when you live without human rights, there's no guarantee you won't end up falling victim to the same abuses you wish upon others.

Also, what horrible crimes are you talking about? Murder? Rape? Would you support gratuitously torturing non-Muslim American citizens who were convicted for similar crimes in American soil?

Oh, the major guys. Al-baghdadi, that one british guy who cut Americans throats for TV(we've already got his ass so i'm a little late on that one,) people who have tortured, raped or executed. The real bad guys. As for the Americans thing, they're under the constitution because they're citizens.

But if there was no constitution, you would torture them too, wouldn't you?

In other words, you want your military to commit war crimes.

By international definition, Yes.

Why? What do you gain? Other than appeasing your sadistic fantasies of bloody vengeance?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Not even here. Much like, in World War II, the Holocaust did not justify the Japanese internment camps, the atrocities committed by ISIS won't justify any atrocities committed by anti-ISIS forces.

Well, they've forfeited their right to exist. How can you commit a 'wrong' against something that does not even meet the minimum qualifications for deserving to live? I'm talking about the people who have committed murder, rape and torture themselves. They've fired their first shot, we should fire the last.

Sorry, but that's not how the world works. Even murderers, rapists and torturers have human rights. You can't solve the world's problems by inflicting the exact same atrocities on your enemies that they inflicted upon others, nor can you claim the moral high ground in the name of the long rancid "eye for an eye" principle.

Torturing people, even if they are convicted of a serious crime, is wrong. It goes beyond the purpose of punishing crime, it doesn't help anyone, it doesn't make the world a better place, and it certainly doesn't make you the "good guy", or even a "tough guy". It just turns you into yet another thug, with mindless, violent bloodthrist where human reason should be.

[American Imperial State]

Definitely not a good sign.

Terrorists would agree.

So, no fair trials?

No thanks.

More than fair.

Do you seriously desire to live under a government that has such power? As I said before, when you live without human rights, there's no guarantee you won't end up falling victim to the same abuses you wish upon others.

Depends on the government and it's ideology.

But if there was no constitution, you would torture them too, wouldn't you?

No.

Why? What do you gain? Other than appeasing your sadistic fantasies of bloody vengeance?

You argue against the effectiveness of such tactics, i disagree. I'm not talking about going on a torture/killing spree. Just not going to limit our tactics if it happens to further our goals. Public/world opinion be damned.

Sorry, but that's not how the world works. Even murderers, rapists and torturers have human rights. You can't solve the world's problems by inflicting the exact same atrocities on your enemies that they inflicted upon others, nor can you claim the moral high ground in the name of the long rancid "eye for an eye" principle.

Torturing people, even if they are convicted of a serious crime, is wrong. It goes beyond the purpose of punishing crime, it doesn't help anyone, it doesn't make the world a better place, and it certainly doesn't make you the "good guy", or even a "tough guy". It just turns you into yet another thug, with mindless, violent bloodthrist where human reason should be.

Those poor terrorists and their human rights. Poor ISIS.

They are not just criminals, they're Terrorists. They're enemies of the State. It's not about being 'tough', it's about letting the world know what happens to our enemies. I want to make sure that they're more afraid of us than we are of them. I want them to know what is going to happen to them if they fuck with our shit.

[Infected Mushroom]

I’m okay with it if its done for a reasonable national security/law enforcement purpose and there is reasonable oversight over the procedure.

There may be international treaties prohibiting it but I feel that these are unduly restrictive, inflexible, and should be repealed for the greater good. Sometimes lives are at stake and you need answers to save lives. Of the forms of torture, water boarding is one of the more humane methods.

Except torture doesn't actually work, so even as a last resort it's useless, on top of a gross human rights violation.

What are you talking about?

Don't be ridiculous. if you had terrorist information and you were tortured for it, I am fairly certain you would give them what they want within a reasonable time frame (same goes for anyone else really).

Its easy to be tough behind a keyboard and say, ''Well it doesn't work. If they torture me, I'll just keep wasting their time and give them red herrings.'' But when you face torture that will be the last thing you will be thinking. Forgive me for not taking the ''torture doesn't work, the terrorists will just hold out indefinitely'' very seriously. Its just one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

[Infected Mushroom]

Except torture doesn't actually work, so even as a last resort it's useless, on top of a gross human rights violation.

Understanding that requires a basic sense of empathy.

Except a blanket ban on torture in all scenarios privileges the human rights of terrorists over the rights of innocents to live and be safe. Its not a very empathetic position really.

Its also a bit of a double standard because apparently its okay to kill terrorists or to injure them permanently in combat... but its not okay to torture them for a few minutes to extract information that could save lives. The knee-jerk reaction against torture is getting tiresome and it exemplifies a typical response to catchphrases (we've been programmed to have such a knee-jerk bad reaction against words like ''torture'' that we don't pause and think about the contextual nuances).

[Greed and Death]

Strangely when his says this stuff he becomes more popular.

polls now show him beating Hillary and only losing slightly to Bernie.

[Frank Zipper]

Strangely when his says this stuff he becomes more popular.

polls now show him beating Hillary and only losing slightly to Bernie.

America is going full retard.

[Trumpostan]

Understanding that requires a basic sense of empathy.

Except a blanket ban on torture in all scenarios privileges the human rights of terrorists over the rights of innocents to live and be safe. Its not a very empathetic position really.

Its also a bit of a double standard because apparently its okay to kill terrorists or to injure them permanently in combat... but its not okay to torture them for a few minutes to extract information that could save lives. The knee-jerk reaction against torture is getting tiresome and it exemplifies a typical response to catchphrases (we've been programmed to have such a knee-jerk bad reaction against words like ''torture'' that we don't pause and think about the contextual nuances).

We want the moral upper hand so we should not stoop to their "lows". Want to make America great again? Then demand we behave accordingly. Which is not something that the Trumpians actually want. They're the playground bullies who think that not bullying is a sign of weakness.

[Whakatemarangai]

Waterboarding should be banned, but replaced with sodaboarding with torture kits supplied by Coca-Cola. When we're through with the terrorists, they'll love Coca-Cola so much they'll buy some for their families and will love America.

[Migaletia]

In these times, there is not another way. Sometimes we need information, information that will save many other people from intense suffering at the hands of terrorists such as ISIS.
It's been proved that it worked to extract a lot of intelligence from captured Al-Qaeda members and Talibans. I am pretty sure most people who want to forbid it were thinking only about the act iself and not it's cost/benefit ratio.
As Trump said (I don't think I'll be saying this again soon) ISIS does way worse stuff not only to military and combatants, but also to non-combatants. People like this aren't even morally close to human

[Liriena]

Except torture doesn't actually work, so even as a last resort it's useless, on top of a gross human rights violation.

What are you talking about?

Have you actually read any of the reports made over the past few years on the effectiveness of torture? The consensus seems to be that it doesn't really work, and it hasn't actually served to prevent attacks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-dooley/how-cia-torture-didnt-pre_b_6373350.html

Don't be ridiculous.

You are the one being ridiculous. There's a large body of evidence suggesting that torture is useless, and yet here you are, making excuses for it.

if you had terrorist information and you were tortured for it, I am fairly certain you would give them what they want within a reasonable time frame (same goes for anyone else really).

And you would probably be wrong.
http://detaineetaskforce.org/pdf/Chapter-7_True-and-False-Confessions-Efficacy-of-Torture.pdf

Pro-tip: Just because movies and TV shows make it look like it's the best tool to get a useful, last minute confession, doesn't mean it actually is.

Its easy to be tough behind a keyboard and say, ''Well it doesn't work. If they torture me, I'll just keep wasting their time and give them red herrings.'

I'm not being "tough behind a keyboard", I'm being factual. The only ones being tought behind a keyboard are those going out of their way to excuse torture, with no actual evidence to substantiate their claims other than, from what I can gather, misconceptions that I'd blame on the fact that the American cultural industry has gone out of its way to glorify tough action heroes who torture their way towards saving the world.

But when you face torture that will be the last thing you will be thinking.

And how do you know, exactly? Have you ever been tortured?

Forgive me for not taking the ''torture doesn't work, the terrorists will just hold out indefinitely'' very seriously. Its just one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said "torture doesn't work", period. And actual research seems to support that assertion.

[Grand Calvert]

I do agree that waterboarding is nothing in comparison to things done by ISIS but its still torture. And there's a big problem when you're willing to torture someone for being a "suspected" terrorist. And also it doesn't really work; people will admit to anything you want them to admit to if you're torturing them.

[Gauthier]

Waterboarding should be banned, but replaced with sodaboarding with torture kits supplied by Coca-Cola. When we're through with the terrorists, they'll love Coca-Cola so much they'll buy some for their families and will love America.

Even more blatant torture.

9 Things You Didn't Know Coca-Cola Could Do

[Liriena]

Definitely not a good sign.

Terrorists would agree.

So, no fair trials?

No thanks.

More than fair.

Do you seriously desire to live under a government that has such power? As I said before, when you live without human rights, there's no guarantee you won't end up falling victim to the same abuses you wish upon others.

Depends on the government and it's ideology.

As if you could single-handedly control that.

But if there was no constitution, you would torture them too, wouldn't you?

No.

Why not? Their crimes would be just as bad as ISIS. I'm talking about American murderers, rapists and torturers. What makes their crimes less deserving of torture than those of ISIS members?

Why? What do you gain? Other than appeasing your sadistic fantasies of bloody vengeance?

You argue against the effectiveness of such tactics, i disagree.[/quote]
And your disagreement is grounded in... what exactly?

I'm not talking about going on a torture/killing spree.

Except you are. You are advocating for mass torture and murder.

Just not going to limit our tactics if it happens to further our goals.

So, you want the United States to forsake any pretense of being a civilized state, disregard over a century of American and European efforts to prevent atrocities from being committed during wars, and just be given carte blanche to freely murder and torture its way through its enemies?

Public/world opinion be damned.

Public/world opinion, international law, local law, and about a century of firmly established principles.

Sorry, but that's not how the world works. Even murderers, rapists and torturers have human rights. You can't solve the world's problems by inflicting the exact same atrocities on your enemies that they inflicted upon others, nor can you claim the moral high ground in the name of the long rancid "eye for an eye" principle.

Torturing people, even if they are convicted of a serious crime, is wrong. It goes beyond the purpose of punishing crime, it doesn't help anyone, it doesn't make the world a better place, and it certainly doesn't make you the "good guy", or even a "tough guy". It just turns you into yet another thug, with mindless, violent bloodthrist where human reason should be.

Those poor terrorists and their human rights. Poor ISIS.

They are not just criminals, they're Terrorists. They're enemies of the State.

Yet they remain human, and have human rights. Even the world's worst criminals have human rights.

It's not about being 'tough', it's about letting the world know what happens to our enemies. I want to make sure that they're more afraid of us than we are of them. I want them to know what is going to happen to them if they fuck with our shit.

Spoken like a true wannabe tyrant. Ruling through fear like a common thug, showing off how savage you are, while pretending you are better than the people you are abusing.

It's as repulsive as it is pathetic.

[Liriena]

Its also a bit of a double standard because apparently its okay to kill terrorists or to injure them permanently in combat... but its not okay to torture them for a few minutes to extract information that could save lives.

There you go!

Killing or wounding an enemy combatant during battle is legitimate because the enemy combatant is actually fighting you and posing a threat to you or others. But when you capture said enemy combatant, that enemy combatant is your prisoner, and for over a century, it has been agreed upon by pretty much everyone who wasn't a totalitarian dictator or the leader of a terrorist organization that prisoners of war are supposed to be kept safe and in good health. Capturing them doesn't give you the right to inflict physical or psychological harm upon them.

Do you want to do away with the rights of prisoners of war? Then brace yourself for a return to far darker times, and be ready to put up with the consequences of disregarding the fundamental human rights of unarmed, imprisoned human beings who are supposed to be under your care.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Strangely when his says this stuff he becomes more popular.
polls now show him beating Hillary and only losing slightly to Bernie.

America is going full retard.

These people are not intellectually deficient. They are assholes. Get it right.

[Boingles the Clown]

Its also a bit of a double standard because apparently its okay to kill terrorists or to injure them permanently in combat... but its not okay to torture them for a few minutes to extract information that could save lives.

There you go!

Killing or wounding an enemy combatant during battle is legitimate because the enemy combatant is actually fighting you and posing a threat to you or others. But when you capture said enemy combatant, that enemy combatant is your prisoner, and for over a century, it has been agreed upon by pretty much everyone who wasn't a totalitarian dictator or the leader of a terrorist organization that prisoners of war are supposed to be kept safe and in good health. Capturing them doesn't give you the right to inflict physical or psychological harm upon them.

Do you want to do away with the rights of prisoners of war? Then brace yourself for a return to far darker times, and be ready to put up with the consequences of disregarding the fundamental human rights of unarmed, imprisoned human beings who are supposed to be under your care.

Why do prisoners of war even have rights, for God's sake? They're the enemy, and should be treated accordingly.