Are We or Aren't We Alone the Universe?

[United Marxist Nations]

Because you are only considering the direction of evolution and technology that took place with our species, and not even all parts of our species.

How is living alone in a chaotic fashion of constant competition just as advanced forming complex institutions from which abide to basic legal and civil codes and develop infrastructure?

Why do you consider that to be the only alternative?

[Korhal IVV]

UFO's. Maybe the "gods" the ancients talk about are actually powerful alien visitors.

Pretty unlikely. Our ancestors were smarter than you might give them credit for. Smart enough to have probably called that bluff.

Well, we could'nt firgure out how the Incas would have placed those massive boulders on that mountain...

[San Lumen]

Pretty unlikely. Our ancestors were smarter than you might give them credit for. Smart enough to have probably called that bluff.

Well, we could'nt firgure out how the Incas would have placed those massive boulders on that mountain...

There are a lot of ancient structures we can't figure out how they were constructed.

[United Marxist Nations]

Pretty unlikely. Our ancestors were smarter than you might give them credit for. Smart enough to have probably called that bluff.

Well, we could'nt firgure out how the Incas would have placed those massive boulders on that mountain...

What massive boulders? Also, a lot of claims of "we can't figure out" have been figured out for a long time.

[Pandeeria]

UFO's. Maybe the "gods" the ancients talk about are actually powerful alien visitors.

Pretty unlikely. Our ancestors were smarter than you might give them credit for. Smart enough to have probably called that bluff.

They believed in sky gods without question based on faith alone? Wow, they sure do seem smart enough to call an alien's bluff.

[Pandeeria]

How is living alone in a chaotic fashion of constant competition just as advanced forming complex institutions from which abide to basic legal and civil codes and develop infrastructure?

Why do you consider that to be the only alternative?

You rather live in a civilization or you don't. Civilization can come in many different forms, from tribes that abide to the rules of faith and honor, to massive urbanized cities following the laws set forth by a centralized nation state, and many things in-between.

[United Marxist Nations]

Pretty unlikely. Our ancestors were smarter than you might give them credit for. Smart enough to have probably called that bluff.

They believed in sky gods without question based on faith alone? Wow, they sure do seem smart enough to call an alien's bluff.

They also were able to build bridges more than a mile long, raise armies of tens of thousands, invent the mechanical reaper, come up with an early version of atomic theory, and figure out how to create bronze; so, yeah, I think they would be smart enough to call a bluff. Also, there were lots of philosophical positions on religion.

[United Marxist Nations]

Why do you consider that to be the only alternative?

You rather live in a civilization or you don't. Civilization can come in many different forms, from tribes that abide to the rules of faith and honor, to massive urbanized cities following the laws set forth by a centralized nation state, and many things in-between.

Okay, so you assume that, because this dichotomy happened once, in very specific circumstances, that it must apply to all life in existence?

[Faustian Fantasies]

They believed in sky gods without question based on faith alone? Wow, they sure do seem smart enough to call an alien's bluff.

They also were able to build bridges more than a mile long, raise armies of tens of thousands, invent the mechanical reaper, come up with an early version of atomic theory, and figure out how to create bronze; so, yeah, I think they would be smart enough to call a bluff. Also, there were lots of philosophical positions on religion.

And this.

[The Falk Land Islands]

Pretty unlikely. Our ancestors were smarter than you might give them credit for. Smart enough to have probably called that bluff.

They believed in sky gods without question based on faith alone? Wow, they sure do seem smart enough to call an alien's bluff.

If you had no knowledge of science I'm pretty sure you would worship the sky above all.

Gives you the sun, moon, stars...

[Pandeeria]

You rather live in a civilization or you don't. Civilization can come in many different forms, from tribes that abide to the rules of faith and honor, to massive urbanized cities following the laws set forth by a centralized nation state, and many things in-between.

Okay, so you assume that, because this dichotomy happened once, in very specific circumstances, that it must apply to all life in existence?

Fucking wolfs have evolved to adapt command structures. Ants have created impressively complex structures, both physical ant hills and command structures (IE what job each ant gets, etc.). I don't think the only requirement for being considered "advanced" is civilization, but that should be one of the requirements.

[Grande Republic of Arcadia]

We are not alone the universe is endless and that means many other earth like worlds yes they may not be humanoid they may be bacteria bu we are not alone and since the universe is endless there are possibly multiple human races, and many others

[Evanescens]

That is the weirdest fear if you analyse it. Options:
1. Heeeeyy! 10²³ stars in the universe, they are all mine-mine-mine, and there is no one out there to threaten me till the universe goes dark!
2. One in a trillion (10¹²) stars (just one per 1000 galaxies) has life, and one in a billlion of those has advanced life, and one in a hundred of the advanced ones has FTL and makes it a point to find and exterminate all inferior life forms that think too much of themselves, that explains quite well the Fermi paradox.

Now, which one would be worth fearing? Obviously the first one is safe and jolly. Obviously the second one is terrifying and depressing. So, Arthur C. Clarke has got this one backwards.

Someone quoted Arthur C. Clarke's famous quote earlier. I think its far more terrifying finding out we are alone then finding out we aren't.

[Korhal IVV]

Nope nope nope nope. There's definitely life out there.
Scientifically it's impossible for there to not be.
But, I wonder...God created the Solar system and the universe(I'm a Christian), so I wonder if he told those aliens about him or if we're his "favorites" per se...
Hmm........

If so, humans are God's favorites because we ae the weakest of the weakest species. When you compare humans to most alien species in games and movies, they are mostly just "meh" compared to them.

[United Marxist Nations]

Okay, so you assume that, because this dichotomy happened once, in very specific circumstances, that it must apply to all life in existence?

Fucking wolfs have evolved to adapt command structures. Ants have created impressively complex structures, both physical ant hills and command structures (IE what job each ant gets, etc.). I don't think the only requirement for being considered "advanced" is civilization, but that should be one of the requirements.

Like I said, their planet's ecology and the direction evolution took there could render things we consider necessary for civilization irrelevant or redundant.

[Pandeeria]

They believed in sky gods without question based on faith alone? Wow, they sure do seem smart enough to call an alien's bluff.

They also were able to build bridges more than a mile long, raise armies of tens of thousands, invent the mechanical reaper, come up with an early version of atomic theory, and figure out how to create bronze; so, yeah, I think they would be smart enough to call a bluff. Also, there were lots of philosophical positions on religion.

Oh and wow, they also believed in sky gods. They definitely were smart enough to not believe that mind-blowingly advanced alien life could have been messengers from the gods or even gods themselves.

[Pandeeria]

Fucking wolfs have evolved to adapt command structures. Ants have created impressively complex structures, both physical ant hills and command structures (IE what job each ant gets, etc.). I don't think the only requirement for being considered "advanced" is civilization, but that should be one of the requirements.

Like I said, their planet's ecology and the direction evolution took there could render things we consider necessary for civilization irrelevant or redundant.

What alternative do you have to civilization then?

[United Marxist Nations]

They also were able to build bridges more than a mile long, raise armies of tens of thousands, invent the mechanical reaper, come up with an early version of atomic theory, and figure out how to create bronze; so, yeah, I think they would be smart enough to call a bluff. Also, there were lots of philosophical positions on religion.

Oh and wow, they also believed in sky gods. They definitely were smart enough to not believe that mind-blowingly advanced alien life could have been messengers from the gods or even gods themselves.

If they were so advanced as for our ancestors to be unable to even comprehend their technology, then they likely would have been so advanced as to render our ancestors unable to even really recognize their power.

Like I said, their planet's ecology and the direction evolution took there could render things we consider necessary for civilization irrelevant or redundant.

What alternative do you have to civilization then?

Perhaps hiveminds, something similar to what ants have but with greater intelligence, things like that.

Of course, this is assuming that they even use DNA as the basis of their genetic code.

[Pandeeria]

Oh and wow, they also believed in sky gods. They definitely were smart enough to not believe that mind-blowingly advanced alien life could have been messengers from the gods or even gods themselves.

If they were so advanced as for our ancestors to be unable to even comprehend their technology, then they likely would have been so advanced as to render our ancestors unable to even really recognize their power.

I doubt that if any ancient civilization saw large objects descend from the sky, and creature walk out of them in fancy gear with technology, they would not worship said alien creatures.

Didn't the Aztecs believe Cortes was a god? Or was that the Incas believing Pizarro was a god?

Perhaps hiveminds, something similar to what ants have but with greater intelligence, things like that.

That would be a civilization. A non-civilization is something like beetles (as far as I know). They don't form colonies, they don't form complex systems of hierarchy and authority like wolfs, ants, monkeys, and humans do. They just fly and walk around, trying to survive. Another example is spiders. Thank hell they don't form massive colonies with a queen spider.

Of course, this is assuming that they even use DNA as the basis of their genetic code.

If they use something else, it is their equivalent to our DNA, probably. I don't see how a fundamentally different form DNA would make their civilization inherently different. It would have a big effect if said DNA made them autotrophic, but I don't think things would be fundamentally different.

[AiliailiA]

Secondly, we haven't deliberately transmitted a Hello message towards any candidate stars.

*Ahem* You could argue that the messages and/or stars chosen weren't very good, but we have tried.

Hmm, how did such dumb animals get a radio transmitter? Well it's stopped now, they probably urinated on it or something. Not suitable as pets then ...

[United Marxist Nations]

If they were so advanced as for our ancestors to be unable to even comprehend their technology, then they likely would have been so advanced as to render our ancestors unable to even really recognize their power.

1) I doubt that if any ancient civilization saw large objects descend from the sky, and creature walk out of them in fancy gear with technology, they would not worship said alien creatures.

2) Didn't the Aztecs believe Cortes was a god? Or was that the Incas believing Pizarro was a god?

Perhaps hiveminds, something similar to what ants have but with greater intelligence, things like that.

3) That would be a civilization. A non-civilization is something like beetles (as far as I know). They don't form colonies, they don't form complex systems of hierarchy and authority like wolfs, ants, monkeys, and humans do. They just fly and walk around, trying to survive. Another example is spiders. Thank hell they don't form massive colonies with a queen spider.

Of course, this is assuming that they even use DNA as the basis of their genetic code.

If they use something else, it is their equivalent to our DNA, probably. 4) I don't see how a fundamentally different form DNA would make their civilization inherently different. It would have a big effect if said DNA made them autotrophic, but I don't think things would be fundamentally different.

1) Based on the things our ancestors questioned (they sometimes doubted that existence was real, the absolute madmen!), I think they would have had more questions than assumptions (e.g. "Why would God need a vessel? Why would God need clothes? Why would God have need for anything but Himself?"). It should also be said that they understood complex ideas of geometry, engineering, and metallurgy; for them not to recognize such things would have been ridiculous.

2) This is probably either Cortes making stuff up or the Aztec luring him into a false sense of security. If they had thought he was a god, they wouldn't have tried to kill him. They had no reason to believe he would have been a god, as they understood all the things the Spaniards possessed, at least in a basic sense.

3) No, a hivemind or something like an ant colony would not require symbolic communication or necessarily even agriculture, and would thus not be civilization.

4) It would change everything about them, from the fundamental building blocks of their bodies (would they even have cells), what they metabolize, do they age, how long do they live, etc.

[Evanescens]

Well, in the spirit of roleplay:

The thread for Stuff That Really Matters is over there: <points to the Logout button>

<breaks the pointing finger off, hands it back to the rightful owner, makes some tea while the opponent's blood pressure is dropping, then resumes conversation>

I personally would be excited and fascinated by a genuine SETI discovery.
It could be merely a pattern (numerical approximation of a universal constant for instance) which tells us nothing other than that the signal is deliberate and the sender knows something we do too.
Or it could be detailed instructions on how to build a FTL communicator ...

If you look at all the science fiction, you will unavoidably find (upon due consideration) there is not one 'alien species' that is not a caricature on humanity. In one way or another, even if that is an intelligent slime under a rock, it does something human. So much for excitement and fascination: what people really want is to find nothing really new. Not a chorus of angels incomprehensibly higher than humans, not a realm comprised entirely of horror and pain, not even an introverted universal entity that prefers not to be named, studied or otherwise bothered by others. Nothing too big please -- man-sized, man-comfortable, man-like, and a user-friendly design for FTL communicator. I will quote a certain sci-fi character who depicts such an incomprehensible contact with universe in comprehensible manner: "And the scales fell from my eyes, and they were open to a universe of majesty and terror that you could never imagine."

Now, back to that unfortunate finger. You say you would be excited and fascinated to discover essentially another mind (that is what "I" means in "SETI"), yet when you meet another mind not so much unlike your own, you point your finger to the door. I doubt you are mentally prepared to meet any one but your own reflection in the mirror, and the other 7 some billion are even less prepared for that. You and they want a reflection, preferably, or a caricature, at the outside, but neither majesty nor terror of the universe comprised of 10²³ stars, vast spaces in between, and infinite number of mysteries beyond all that. You just want to be entertained. Am I close, sir?

[AiliailiA]

Well, in the spirit of roleplay:

The thread for Stuff That Really Matters is over there: <points to the Logout button>

<breaks the pointing finger off, hands it back to the rightful owner, makes some tea while the opponent's blood pressure is dropping, then resumes conversation>

I personally would be excited and fascinated by a genuine SETI discovery.
It could be merely a pattern (numerical approximation of a universal constant for instance) which tells us nothing other than that the signal is deliberate and the sender knows something we do too.
Or it could be detailed instructions on how to build a FTL communicator ...

If you look at all the science fiction, you will unavoidably find (upon due consideration) there is not one 'alien species' that is not a caricature on humanity. In one way or another, even if that is an intelligent slime under a rock, it does something human. So much for excitement and fascination: what people really want is to find nothing really new. Not a chorus of angels incomprehensibly higher than humans, not a realm comprised entirely of horror and pain, not even an introverted universal entity that prefers not to be named, studied or otherwise bothered by others. Nothing too big please -- man-sized, man-comfortable, man-like, and a user-friendly design for FTL communicator. I will quote a certain sci-fi character who depicts such an incomprehensible contact with universe in comprehensible manner: "And the scales fell from my eyes, and they were open to a universe of majesty and terror that you could never imagine."

Now, back to that unfortunate finger. You say you would be excited and fascinated to discover essentially another mind (that is what "I" means in "SETI"), yet when you meet another mind not so much unlike your own, you point your finger to the door. I doubt you are mentally prepared to meet any one but your own reflection in the mirror, and the other 7 some billion are even less prepared for that. You and they want a reflection, preferably, or a caricature, at the outside, but neither majesty nor terror of the universe comprised of 10²³ stars, vast spaces in between, and infinite number of mysteries beyond all that. You just want to be entertained. Am I close, sir?

Maybe. Wonderful rhetoric you have, but from the very start you missed a joke and seemed to get angry in response. I find it hard to compose a civil response, so meh.

[Constantinopolis]

1) Based on the things our ancestors questioned (they sometimes doubted that existence was real, the absolute madmen!), I think they would have had more questions than assumptions (e.g. "Why would God need a vessel? Why would God need clothes? Why would God have need for anything but Himself?"). It should also be said that they understood complex ideas of geometry, engineering, and metallurgy; for them not to recognize such things would have been ridiculous.

After all, even James T. Kirk could figure it out.

[Evanescens]

Oh no, I do not get angry or (what's the opposite? jolly? happy?) otherwise emotional. It is a discussion on the point, not a limbic contest. I have looked into this phenomenon (sci-fi races are all caricatures) and found zero ability or desire in people to really discover something else. At best, the reaction is fear (the whole "Alien" story) or aggression (decades of war in space, space exploration ships are pimped-up dreadnoughts as in Star Trek, etc). At the same time any traditional religion offers exactly that: a contact with something else entirely, predominantly benevolent, and people are not so enthusiastic about even that option for personal SETI. Any ETI is expected to be a man-sized sociable meatbag, but not too alike -- a caricature on man.

Well, in the spirit of roleplay:



<breaks the pointing finger off, hands it back to the rightful owner, makes some tea while the opponent's blood pressure is dropping, then resumes conversation>



If you look at all the science fiction, you will unavoidably find (upon due consideration) there is not one 'alien species' that is not a caricature on humanity. In one way or another, even if that is an intelligent slime under a rock, it does something human. So much for excitement and fascination: what people really want is to find nothing really new. Not a chorus of angels incomprehensibly higher than humans, not a realm comprised entirely of horror and pain, not even an introverted universal entity that prefers not to be named, studied or otherwise bothered by others. Nothing too big please -- man-sized, man-comfortable, man-like, and a user-friendly design for FTL communicator. I will quote a certain sci-fi character who depicts such an incomprehensible contact with universe in comprehensible manner: "And the scales fell from my eyes, and they were open to a universe of majesty and terror that you could never imagine."

Now, back to that unfortunate finger. You say you would be excited and fascinated to discover essentially another mind (that is what "I" means in "SETI"), yet when you meet another mind not so much unlike your own, you point your finger to the door. I doubt you are mentally prepared to meet any one but your own reflection in the mirror, and the other 7 some billion are even less prepared for that. You and they want a reflection, preferably, or a caricature, at the outside, but neither majesty nor terror of the universe comprised of 10²³ stars, vast spaces in between, and infinite number of mysteries beyond all that. You just want to be entertained. Am I close, sir?

Maybe. Wonderful rhetoric you have, but from the very start you missed a joke and seemed to get angry in response. I find it hard to compose a civil response, so meh.