Current events in Iran: Your thoughts?

[Valipac]

Its obvious. They wanted to through off our friend the Shah, and now, when they realize that they aren't responsible enough to run their own government, its time for us to what they aren't responsible enough to do. We have put in another puppet government until they're ready to govern themselves in another hundred years.

Uh... no

What we need to do is nothing. What they need to do, is install a truly democratic system, where either the prime minister or the president holds the power, not the unelected supreme leader. A place where freedom of the press is allowed and the internet, phone lines, and SMS are not shut down to keep the populace in the dark. A place where militia can't randomly beat someone down.

No, this just shows that the muslim world has not politicly matured enough to have democracy work. And thus, we need to guide them until they are, in like a thousand years.

No, the problem was that we were propping up a dictatorship that killed and imprisoned its own people. As a result, when they rebelled, they replaced it with something equally tyrannical. They have never had democracy in their nation, so I hardly see how you can declare them not mature enough for it. If anything, this proves that they are ready for true democracy, because the people have realized that the power should lie in their hands, not the governments. If we had this much political interaction in America, political analysts would die of shock at people actually caring about the government. I'd say that Iran is perhaps more ready for democracy than many western nations who already have it.

[Brogavia]

No, the problem was that we were propping up a dictatorship that killed and imprisoned its own people. As a result, when they rebelled, they replaced it with something equally tyrannical. They have never had democracy in their nation, so I hardly see how you can declare them not mature enough for it. If anything, this proves that they are ready for true democracy, because the people have realized that the power should lie in their hands, not the governments. If we had this much political interaction in America, political analysts would die of shock at people actually caring about the government. I'd say that Iran is perhaps more ready for democracy than many western nations who already have it.

No, they're not showing that they're ready. This is them taking their first baby steps towards it yes, but without considerable help from an established democracy, they will just fall backwards. I will however admit, that baby steps are still steps. This would not be possible, if it weren't for the internet, and other western inventions, or the Invasion of Iraq. They wouldn't have started to use the internet if they weren't trying to find out the best way to kill us.

These protests are the farthest steps forward that Islam has made since its inception.

[Luna Nostra]

No, the problem was that we were propping up a dictatorship that killed and imprisoned its own people. As a result, when they rebelled, they replaced it with something equally tyrannical. They have never had democracy in their nation, so I hardly see how you can declare them not mature enough for it. If anything, this proves that they are ready for true democracy, because the people have realized that the power should lie in their hands, not the governments. If we had this much political interaction in America, political analysts would die of shock at people actually caring about the government. I'd say that Iran is perhaps more ready for democracy than many western nations who already have it.

No, they're not showing that they're ready. This is them taking their first baby steps towards it yes, but without considerable help from an established democracy, they will just fall backwards. I will however admit, that baby steps are still steps. This would not be possible, if it weren't for the internet, and other western inventions, or the Invasion of Iraq. They wouldn't have started to use the internet if they weren't trying to find out the best way to kill us.

These protests are the farthest steps forward that Islam has made since its inception.

No one helped America during its revolution and it turned out alright. Why shouldn't Iran be allowed self-determination?

And what does Islam have to do with it? We're talking about the political system of Iran and the Iranian people. The American Revolution wasn't a step for Christianity.

[Xanthal]

I'd point out also that as of yesterday, Iran's own state media reported seven deaths. As for the election situation, I don't know. Some degree of fraud seems likely, but Ahmadinejad may have won anyway. I don't know. In any case, I think President Obama is right; this situation is best left to the Iranians unless it becomes a security concern to other countries. Their government, their elections, their society. Iran has been around, and in my humble opinion, its people are at least as politically mature as their government, perhaps more so. If there's fertile ground for true democracy in the Middle East, it's Iran, but the United States has already sullied its reputation there and has little role as a legitimate player in the process right now.

Now a rather roundabout response to Brogavia. The Middle East in general has been pushed around so much over the past century or two- by colonialism, then by the Cold War games of the US and Soviets, and now over oil and neocolonial influence- that I think the best solutions will come from within. We as outsiders should not necessarily be idle, but recognize that we have long ago lost our credibility among the people of that region and proceed accordingly. Taking rash action to protect our immediate interests is likely to perpetuate a long history of hostility and distrust. I am not proposing that the US and other concerned parties in the international community must stand by if events demand action, only that we weigh the immediate benefits of intervention against the unpredictable but inevitable long-term consequences that history has taught us will result.

[Valipac]

No, the problem was that we were propping up a dictatorship that killed and imprisoned its own people. As a result, when they rebelled, they replaced it with something equally tyrannical. They have never had democracy in their nation, so I hardly see how you can declare them not mature enough for it. If anything, this proves that they are ready for true democracy, because the people have realized that the power should lie in their hands, not the governments. If we had this much political interaction in America, political analysts would die of shock at people actually caring about the government. I'd say that Iran is perhaps more ready for democracy than many western nations who already have it.

No, they're not showing that they're ready. This is them taking their first baby steps towards it yes, but without considerable help from an established democracy, they will just fall backwards. I will however admit, that baby steps are still steps. This would not be possible, if it weren't for the internet, and other western inventions, or the Invasion of Iraq. They wouldn't have started to use the internet if they weren't trying to find out the best way to kill us.

These protests are the farthest steps forward that Islam has made since its inception.

Mm. What "considerable help from an established democracy" did the USA have when it first came into being? But besides the point that they could exist without help, would Iraq not genuinely be interested in the well-being of a newly democratic state on their border? Would the EU and America simply look the other way while a fledgling democracy took its first steps? If Iran did become a real democracy (theoretically a real republic), they would have help from other nations. The only thing is, if they are going to make the transition, they must do that themselves. And don't tell me you've never heard of a democratic revolution before.

All in all, your posts reflect a bigoted view that seems to simply want to push people who dwell in the Middle East (who may or may not be Islamic) aside. Very few people in that region of the world actually want to kill Americans. If you believe otherwise, you need to quit watching Faux News. The fact of the matter is, the internet is a tool of the young (my) generation. The people who have really headed up democratic protests in the past and are a large part of it now in Iran are students, around my age. They use the internet because they are no different than I am, they hunger in the pursuit of knowledge. And now they are using it to leak news when the state is censoring other sources.

[Brogavia]

No, the problem was that we were propping up a dictatorship that killed and imprisoned its own people. As a result, when they rebelled, they replaced it with something equally tyrannical. They have never had democracy in their nation, so I hardly see how you can declare them not mature enough for it. If anything, this proves that they are ready for true democracy, because the people have realized that the power should lie in their hands, not the governments. If we had this much political interaction in America, political analysts would die of shock at people actually caring about the government. I'd say that Iran is perhaps more ready for democracy than many western nations who already have it.

No, they're not showing that they're ready. This is them taking their first baby steps towards it yes, but without considerable help from an established democracy, they will just fall backwards. I will however admit, that baby steps are still steps. This would not be possible, if it weren't for the internet, and other western inventions, or the Invasion of Iraq. They wouldn't have started to use the internet if they weren't trying to find out the best way to kill us.

These protests are the farthest steps forward that Islam has made since its inception.

No one helped America during its revolution and it turned out alright. Why shouldn't Iran be allowed self-determination?

And what does Islam have to do with it? We're talking about the political system of Iran and the Iranian people. The American Revolution wasn't a step for Christianity.

Well, the Christian world has another 600 years of cultural advancement that Islam does not. They are at the same place they were in the Crusades. Women are imprisioned and beaten for the "crime" of being raped. Iran is part of the Islamic world, which is ass backwards.

We developed our system because like I said, we are more advanced culturally than they are.

[Belschaft]

Well, the Christian world has another 600 years of cultural advancement that Islam does not. They are at the same place they were in the Crusades. Women are imprisioned and beaten for the "crime" of being raped. Iran is part of the Islamic world, which is ass backwards.

We developed our system because like I said, we are more advanced culturally than they are.

Culturally is the wrong word. Ancient Persia had sewers and planned cities while we were still living in mud huts. What I think you mean is that Islamic law is less fair and liberal than systems based originally on Christian morality.

[Brogavia]

Well, the Christian world has another 600 years of cultural advancement that Islam does not. They are at the same place they were in the Crusades. Women are imprisioned and beaten for the "crime" of being raped. Iran is part of the Islamic world, which is ass backwards.

We developed our system because like I said, we are more advanced culturally than they are.

Culturally is the wrong word. Ancient Persia had sewers and planned cities while we were still living in mud huts. What I think you mean is that Islamic law is less fair and liberal than systems based originally on Christian morality.

And Islam destroyed these advancements, throwing them backward.

[Valipac]

Well, the Christian world has another 600 years of cultural advancement that Islam does not. They are at the same place they were in the Crusades. Women are imprisioned and beaten for the "crime" of being raped. Iran is part of the Islamic world, which is ass backwards.

We developed our system because like I said, we are more advanced culturally than they are.

600 years of cultural advancement? By that do you mean 600 more years massacring people who did not convert to the beliefs of the Holy Roman Empire, or do you mean 600 more years preventing homosexuals from having equal rights and the like?

[Brogavia]

Well, the Christian world has another 600 years of cultural advancement that Islam does not. They are at the same place they were in the Crusades. Women are imprisioned and beaten for the "crime" of being raped. Iran is part of the Islamic world, which is ass backwards.

We developed our system because like I said, we are more advanced culturally than they are.

600 years of cultural advancement? By that do you mean 600 more years massacring people who did not convert to the beliefs of the Holy Roman Empire, or do you mean 600 more years preventing homosexuals from having equal rights and the like?

And we moved past that/ They are still stuck in that phase.

[No Names Left Damn It]

And we moved past that/ They are still stuck in that phase.

If be "we" you mean the US, no you didn't.

[Brogavia]

And we moved past that/ They are still stuck in that phase.

If be "we" you mean the US, no you didn't.

I mean the western world.

[Valipac]

Well, the Christian world has another 600 years of cultural advancement that Islam does not. They are at the same place they were in the Crusades. Women are imprisioned and beaten for the "crime" of being raped. Iran is part of the Islamic world, which is ass backwards.

We developed our system because like I said, we are more advanced culturally than they are.

600 years of cultural advancement? By that do you mean 600 more years massacring people who did not convert to the beliefs of the Holy Roman Empire, or do you mean 600 more years preventing homosexuals from having equal rights and the like?

And we moved past that/ They are still stuck in that phase.

That's why homosexuals can freely marry in the United States. Oh wait...

[Farnhamia]

Well, the Christian world has another 600 years of cultural advancement that Islam does not. They are at the same place they were in the Crusades. Women are imprisioned and beaten for the "crime" of being raped. Iran is part of the Islamic world, which is ass backwards.

We developed our system because like I said, we are more advanced culturally than they are.

Culturally is the wrong word. Ancient Persia had sewers and planned cities while we were still living in mud huts. What I think you mean is that Islamic law is less fair and liberal than systems based originally on Christian morality.

And Islam destroyed these advancements, throwing them backward.

No, not really. A great deal of knowledge from Antiquity was preserved by the Muslims and Islamic scholars are famous for their work in astronomy, mathematics, optics and the like.

What happened was the Crusades. The experience froze the Islamic world in a defence posture toward the West, to the extent that they rejected everything associated with Western Europe out of hand, and so fell behind as the West explored the New World and developed modern science. The land-grabbing by the allied Powers after WWI in the MIddle East certainly didn't help, either.

[Fartsniffage]

Mm. What "considerable help from an established democracy" did the USA have when it first came into being? But besides the point that they could exist without help, would Iraq not genuinely be interested in the well-being of a newly democratic state on their border? Would the EU and America simply look the other way while a fledgling democracy took its first steps? If Iran did become a real democracy (theoretically a real republic), they would have help from other nations. The only thing is, if they are going to make the transition, they must do that themselves. And don't tell me you've never heard of a democratic revolution before.

All in all, your posts reflect a bigoted view that seems to simply want to push people who dwell in the Middle East (who may or may not be Islamic) aside. Very few people in that region of the world actually want to kill Americans. If you believe otherwise, you need to quit watching Faux News. The fact of the matter is, the internet is a tool of the young (my) generation. The people who have really headed up democratic protests in the past and are a large part of it now in Iran are students, around my age. They use the internet because they are no different than I am, they hunger in the pursuit of knowledge. And now they are using it to leak news when the state is censoring other sources.

I'm not sure I'd hold up the early USA as an example of how well a democracy can be set up without outside help. It took the US 144 years to go from inception to universal suffrage and various paralegal means were still being used to deny the vote to blacks until 1964, 44 years later. I have hopes that Iran will be able to advance much faster with a bit of outside help.

[Brogavia]

And we moved past that/ They are still stuck in that phase.

That's why homosexuals can freely marry in the United States. Oh wait...

Its not the government considers it to be a crime just to be gay in the Islamic world.

And, they are being given those rights.

[Brogavia]

I'm not sure I'd hold up the early USA as an example of how well a democracy can be set up without outside help. It took the US 144 years to go from inception to universal suffrage and various paralegal means were still being used to deny the vote to blacks until 1964, 44 years later. I have hopes that Iran will be able to advance much faster with a bit of outside help.

Considering the rest of the western world, we were advancing at a simmilar rate.

Its like critizing Italy for the Crimes of the Roman Empire.

[JarVik]

*Shrug* No matter who's in command in Iran, I think they will forever loathe the west. Because we are non-believers. And in Iran, it's "Believe what I say or you die."

So yeah, I give it a meh.

I don't think thats how they see the west, nor do I think they're so heavily into a violent form of Islam. My impression of Iran is actually more secular than most Middle-east nations, I actually expect they have a greater chance of forming a true democracy than Iraq.

My "feel" for the matter is mostly based on what I read but also on a former roomate who was Iranian and a vet of the Irannian army. He was very secular minded and not prudish about life and certainly enjoyed beer, and I can't remember him complaning about pork ever either. If it was an issue he certainly never complained about it when I ate some pork products. According to him, while alcohol is prohibited/frowned upon by law(not sure if it still is?), everyone in the country side makes their own wine from rasins and just acts a little discrete when officials are around. Less stigma than pot smokers get in the west apperently.

[Fartsniffage]

Considering the rest of the western world, we were advancing at a simmilar rate.

Its like critizing Italy for the Crimes of the Roman Empire.

Europe was denying black citizens the vote in the 60's?

A serious question, I'd like to learn more about it.

[Valipac]

And we moved past that/ They are still stuck in that phase.

That's why homosexuals can freely marry in the United States. Oh wait...

Its not the government considers it to be a crime just to be gay in the Islamic world.

And, they are being given those rights.

In some areas. And in others, particularly the religious ones that you believe have developed so well, the stances against them are being fortified.

Just because an area has been bereft of political liberty for quite some time does not mean that a republican form of government can not function. I'm pretty sure the British used similar arguments that you have been using when they held the belief that India could not govern itself.

[Valipac]

*Shrug* No matter who's in command in Iran, I think they will forever loathe the west. Because we are non-believers. And in Iran, it's "Believe what I say or you die."

So yeah, I give it a meh.

I don't think thats how they see the west, nor do I think they're so heavily into a violent form of Islam. My impression of Iran is actually more secular than most Middle-east nations, I actually expect they have a greater chance of forming a true democracy than Iraq.

Since the population is so heavily slanted towards youth, I'd imagine that their propensity to embrace true democracy and other "Western" ideals will only grow with time.

[No Names Left Damn It]

I mean the western world.

Still wrong, as the western world contains many countries that don't give homosexuals equal rights.

[Fartsniffage]

In some areas. And in others, particularly the religious ones that you believe have developed so well, the stances against them are being fortified.

Just because an area has been bereft of political liberty for quite some time does not mean that a republican form of government can not function. I'm pretty sure the British used similar arguments that you have been using when they held the belief that India could not govern itself.

It's still struggling, look at Pakistan and Bangladesh.

[Valipac]

In some areas. And in others, particularly the religious ones that you believe have developed so well, the stances against them are being fortified.

Just because an area has been bereft of political liberty for quite some time does not mean that a republican form of government can not function. I'm pretty sure the British used similar arguments that you have been using when they held the belief that India could not govern itself.

It's still struggling, look at Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Pakistan is not a democracy.
Bangladesh's "per-capita (inflation-adjusted) GDP has more than doubled since 1975, and the poverty rate has fallen by 20% since the early 1990s. The country is listed among the "Next Eleven" economies." They have also made "significant progress in human development in the areas of literacy, gender parity in schooling and reduction of population growth."

[Luna Nostra]

In some areas. And in others, particularly the religious ones that you believe have developed so well, the stances against them are being fortified.

Just because an area has been bereft of political liberty for quite some time does not mean that a republican form of government can not function. I'm pretty sure the British used similar arguments that you have been using when they held the belief that India could not govern itself.

It's still struggling, look at Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Is that because Pakistani and Bengali people are inherently savage or uncivilized or because of institutions that these countries were not ready for?

Africa was lumped with western-style governments and bureaucracies that never existed prior to the colonial era. Europeans set them up, exploited the country, and then left an uneducated population with institutions that they had no tradition of handling.

Meddling with the internal politics and systems of other countries only stunts their development.