Child bride dies due to sexual trauma

[Valystria]

This is a matter of religious freedom. Let's not pretend otherwise.

In February 2009, a law was created in Yemen that set the minimum age for marriage at 17. Unfortunately, it was repealed after more conservative lawmakers called it un-Islamic.

A lot of people have no issue when religions violate the rights of social minorities such as gay people. It seems a bit inconsistent that child brides are more of an outrage than religious laws against homosexuality. We could say religion is the problem, but no why would we. These practices like child brides don't come out of nowhere. It comes from religion, and you cannot oppose it without opposing freedom of religion here.

Assuming all Muslims mindlessly agree with the Koran, which they don't

Then they should stop being Muslims. If you don't agree with your religion's holy book, then stop being religious.

Again, true, but to deny that it's upheld within the tenets of the faith is being dishonest. And so long as the faith itself is codified as law, this will continue.

How so? The reason why Yemen abandoned on its 15 year requirment for marriage wasn't a religious one, it was a tribal/cultural one as the court always ruled in favour of tribal culture when it became "law VS tribal culture"
If it would be religious we would see it being tied to just one religion, instead we see child marriages all over the world concerning people from pretty much all religions.

It's tied to those religions, same as how Yemen's child brides are tied to Yemen's religion.

And how dare you speak for Yemen on it's reasons for why they abandoned their age requirement for marriage. Yemen's lawmakers have asserted this is a religious issue. Don't speak for them.

In February 2009, a law was created in Yemen that set the minimum age for marriage at 17. Unfortunately, it was repealed after more conservative lawmakers called it un-Islamic.

[Ostroeuropa]

Assuming all Muslims mindlessly agree with the Koran, which they don't

Then they should stop being Muslims. If you don't agree with your religion's holy book, then stop being religious.

I think it's more a case that they don't mindlessly agree with it.
It requires significant mental resources and time to rationalize their rejection of it as somehow still being what the prophet intended, or rationalize their way through all the numerous absurdities and inconsistencies common to religious narratives.

So I actually agree with him. Muslims do not mindlessly agree with the Koran.

[Valystria]

Then they should stop being Muslims. If you don't agree with your religion's holy book, then stop being religious.

I think it's more a case that they don't mindlessly agree with it.
It requires significant mental resources and time to rationalize their rejection of it as somehow still being what the prophet intended, or rationalize their way through all the numerous absurdities and inconsistencies common to religious narratives.

So I actually agree with him. Muslims do not mindlessly agree with the Koran.

Then they should stop being religious...

As I've said, if someone disagrees with their religion's holy book, or their religion's founding prophet, they really should cease being religious.

If someone disagrees with their political ideology of choice, why would they continue being an adherent of it. Such inconsistency.

[Aethrys]

Unfortunately, due to cultural sensitivity, these calls for setting international standards for age of consent and so on will never amount to much of anything. Multiple nations consider it a religious issue, and frankly much of the world still considers females to be property. You can't get rid of it without disassociating future generations from the cultures in which it is practiced. And of course attempting that would make you a racist neo imperialist and so on.

[Valystria]

Unfortunately, due to cultural sensitivity, these calls for setting international standards for age of consent and so on will never amount to much of anything. Multiple nations consider it a religious issue, and frankly much of the world still considers females to be property. You can't get rid of it without disassociating future generations from the cultures in which it is practiced. And of course attempting that would make you a racist neo imperialist and so on.

We could say their religion is the problem. It is after all, their religion that considers females to be property.

[Jochistan]

I think it's more a case that they don't mindlessly agree with it.
It requires significant mental resources and time to rationalize their rejection of it as somehow still being what the prophet intended, or rationalize their way through all the numerous absurdities and inconsistencies common to religious narratives.

So I actually agree with him. Muslims do not mindlessly agree with the Koran.

Then they should stop being religious...

As I've said, if someone disagrees with their religion's holy book, or their religion's founding prophet, they really should cease being religious.

If someone disagrees with their political ideology of choice, why would they continue being an adherent of it. Such inconsistency.

The problem with that statement is that (I assume) you mean a literal interpretation of the Text. Which would not be permissible
And the life of the Religions Founding Prophet has a few different conflicting traditions itself.

[Ostroeuropa]

Then they should stop being religious...

As I've said, if someone disagrees with their religion's holy book, or their religion's founding prophet, they really should cease being religious.

If someone disagrees with their political ideology of choice, why would they continue being an adherent of it. Such inconsistency.

The problem with that statement is that (I assume) you mean a literal interpretation of the Text. Which would not be permissible
And the life of the Religions Founding Prophet has a few different conflicting traditions itself.

"It requires significant mental resources and time to rationalize their rejection of it as somehow still being what the prophet intended, or rationalize their way through all the numerous absurdities and inconsistencies common to religious narratives."

[Jochistan]

The problem with that statement is that (I assume) you mean a literal interpretation of the Text. Which would not be permissible
And the life of the Religions Founding Prophet has a few different conflicting traditions itself.

"It requires significant mental resources and time to rationalize their rejection of it as somehow still being what the prophet intended, or rationalize their way through all the numerous absurdities and inconsistencies common to religious narratives."

Is Valystria your Puppet or something, cause I wasn't talking to you.

[Saiwania]

What I'd recommend for Yemen is piece meal legislation that would raise the age of consent gradually. It'd be a bit harder to argue that it is non-Islamic if the minimum age is raised from 8 to 9, then 10 to 12. 13 or 14 is when I expect the most stiff opposition, but with any luck, the final age of consent will wind up being set just below 15 to go up to 16 or higher. I think the oldest the Yemenis will go for is 14 if their previous law which was 15 was undone by religious fanaticism.

[Ostroeuropa]

"It requires significant mental resources and time to rationalize their rejection of it as somehow still being what the prophet intended, or rationalize their way through all the numerous absurdities and inconsistencies common to religious narratives."

Is Valystria your Puppet or something, cause I wasn't talking to you.

She wasn't talking to you either, and yet, here we are. I suppose we'll all have to come to terms with public forum posting in order not to have it be one long line of pointless posts whining about who was talking to who such as this one you posted here.

[Aethrys]

Unfortunately, due to cultural sensitivity, these calls for setting international standards for age of consent and so on will never amount to much of anything. Multiple nations consider it a religious issue, and frankly much of the world still considers females to be property. You can't get rid of it without disassociating future generations from the cultures in which it is practiced. And of course attempting that would make you a racist neo imperialist and so on.

We could say their religion is the problem. It is after all, their religion that considers females to be property.

And you're not wrong. It's just considered socially unacceptable by many to attack religious practices that do not coincide with modern definitions of civilization, ie forcibly raping small children, executing homosexuals or declaring social groups to be "unclean". Until this is no longer the case, progress cannot be made.

What I'd recommend for Yemen is piece meal legislation that would raise the age of consent gradually. It'd be a bit harder to argue that it is non-Islamic if the minimum age is raised from 8 to 9, then 10 to 12. 13 or 14 is when I expect the most stiff opposition, but with any luck, the final age of consent will wind up being set just below 15 to go up to 16 or higher. I think the oldest the Yemenis will go for is 14 if their previous law which was 15 was undone by religious fanaticism.

Worth a try, I suppose. Though I imagine the highest they will realistically be able to set it is 9. If they attempt anything higher then the fanatics will go absolutely nuts, as there's no way to spin that which doesn't suggest that Mohammad was wrong by modern standards, which I don't see them accepting.

[The Archregimancy]

Yemen has an acknowledged problem with the institution of child marriage, and were Yemen anything even remotely resembling stable then international efforts to do something about it would likely be both desirable and effective.

However, the existence of the deplorable practice in Yemen isn't necessarily representative of the modern Arabian Peninsula (and I'm typing this from Dubai), the modern Middle East, or modern Islam. Indeed, Yemen is traditionally considered something of a cultural outsider on the Arabian Peninsula. Nor is the practice restricted to Yemen, the Arabian Peninsula, the Middle East, or Islam; as has already been pointed out in the thread, there are other modern non-Yemeni, non-Arab, and non-Muslim cultures with a similar problem.

Very few of us would attempt to defend this specific aspect of traditional Yemeni culture, but nor should we necessarily make misleading extrapolations on the basis of the Yemeni practice.

[Hjallaland]

How so? The reason why Yemen abandoned on its 15 year requirment for marriage wasn't a religious one, it was a tribal/cultural one as the court always ruled in favour of tribal culture when it became "law VS tribal culture"
If it would be religious we would see it being tied to just one religion, instead we see child marriages all over the world concerning people from pretty much all religions.

It's tied to those religions, same as how Yemen's child brides are tied to Yemen's religion.

And how dare you speak for Yemen on it's reasons for why they abandoned their age requirement for marriage. Yemen's lawmakers have asserted this is a religious issue. Don't speak for them.

In February 2009, a law was created in Yemen that set the minimum age for marriage at 17. Unfortunately, it was repealed after more conservative lawmakers called it un-Islamic.

How about doing some actuall research? Yemen had an age limit set on 15, yet it was abandoned becouse of the "tribal costums" excuse that turned out victorious in pretty much all court cases.

It it had truely something to do with religion then you would see the same, or at least a simular result in other Muslim nations, which is not the case. Far from it in fact as seen by the age limits in several other Islamic nations:
Afghanistan: 18 male - 16 female
Bangladesh: 21 male - 18 female
Iran: 18 male - 15 female
Iraq: 15 if certain criteria are met, otherwise 18
Jordan: 18
Kazakhstan: 16
Kuwait: 17 male - 15 female
Oman: 18
Pakistan: 18 male - 16 female
Syria: 18

The fact that the laws are often ignored and that the government isn't stepping in isn't an excuse to blame religion for all of that.
As said, it happens in alot of places with alot of different religions. See for example Equatiorial Guinea, a Christian state where the legal age to marry is 12 years. Palau, another Christain state, doesn't even have a legal age, just like Yemen.

Oh, and before i forget, according to the Islam itself puberty is the requirement for consent. I'm pretty sure the averange 9 year old hasn't hit puberty yet.

See this map aswell for some data on child marriages: http://www.girlsnotbrides.org/where-does-it-happen/

[Hjallaland]

What I'd recommend for Yemen is piece meal legislation that would raise the age of consent gradually. It'd be a bit harder to argue that it is non-Islamic if the minimum age is raised from 8 to 9, then 10 to 12. 13 or 14 is when I expect the most stiff opposition, but with any luck, the final age of consent will wind up being set just below 15 to go up to 16 or higher. I think the oldest the Yemenis will go for is 14 if their previous law which was 15 was undone by religious fanaticism Tribal Costums.

Fixed that.
I think that they could even start at the age of twelve as Islam itself states that consent to marriage can only be given from the start of puberty. Since 12 is a common age to hit puberty i don't believe that many could bring up a decent arguement against it except for the widely used tribal costum excuse, which honestly should be ignored but knowing Yemen it cannot be ignored. Anyhow, after that they could indeed start building it up slowely. But then again, its often the laws that aren't followed as seen in many other countries so its important that the government makes sure that these laws are followed correctly.

[Infected Mushroom]

It's tied to those religions, same as how Yemen's child brides are tied to Yemen's religion.

And how dare you speak for Yemen on it's reasons for why they abandoned their age requirement for marriage. Yemen's lawmakers have asserted this is a religious issue. Don't speak for them.

How about doing some actuall research? Yemen had an age limit set on 15, yet it was abandoned becouse of the "tribal costums" excuse that turned out victorious in pretty much all court cases.

It it had truely something to do with religion then you would see the same, or at least a simular result in other Muslim nations, which is not the case. Far from it in fact as seen by the age limits in several other Islamic nations:
Afghanistan: 18 male - 16 female
Bangladesh: 21 male - 18 female
Iran: 18 male - 15 female
Iraq: 15 if certain criteria are met, otherwise 18
Jordan: 18
Kazakhstan: 16
Kuwait: 17 male - 15 female
Oman: 18
Pakistan: 18 male - 16 female
Syria: 18

The fact that the laws are often ignored and that the government isn't stepping in isn't an excuse to blame religion for all of that.
As said, it happens in alot of places with alot of different religions. See for example Equatiorial Guinea, a Christian state where the legal age to marry is 12 years. Palau, another Christain state, doesn't even have a legal age, just like Yemen.

Oh, and before i forget, according to the Islam itself puberty is the requirement for consent. I'm pretty sure the averange 9 year old hasn't hit puberty yet.

See this map aswell for some data on child marriages: http://www.girlsnotbrides.org/where-does-it-happen/

Well...

It really all goes back to religion.

The fact that the laws are often ignored and that the government isn't stepping in isn't an excuse to blame religion for all of that.

You have to ask... WHY are the laws often ignored... WHY isn't the government stepping in?

Its because of the local religion.

[Infected Mushroom]

When I read about things like this, it makes me wish that the British had never left. I mean, economic exploitation aside, they would at least never have allowed these sorts of practices to continue. Sometimes it makes you wonder whether or not decolonisation was a good thing or not...

[Hjallaland]

How about doing some actuall research? Yemen had an age limit set on 15, yet it was abandoned becouse of the "tribal costums" excuse that turned out victorious in pretty much all court cases.

It it had truely something to do with religion then you would see the same, or at least a simular result in other Muslim nations, which is not the case. Far from it in fact as seen by the age limits in several other Islamic nations:
Afghanistan: 18 male - 16 female
Bangladesh: 21 male - 18 female
Iran: 18 male - 15 female
Iraq: 15 if certain criteria are met, otherwise 18
Jordan: 18
Kazakhstan: 16
Kuwait: 17 male - 15 female
Oman: 18
Pakistan: 18 male - 16 female
Syria: 18

The fact that the laws are often ignored and that the government isn't stepping in isn't an excuse to blame religion for all of that.
As said, it happens in alot of places with alot of different religions. See for example Equatiorial Guinea, a Christian state where the legal age to marry is 12 years. Palau, another Christain state, doesn't even have a legal age, just like Yemen.

Oh, and before i forget, according to the Islam itself puberty is the requirement for consent. I'm pretty sure the averange 9 year old hasn't hit puberty yet.

See this map aswell for some data on child marriages: http://www.girlsnotbrides.org/where-does-it-happen/

Well...

It really all goes back to religion.

The fact that the laws are often ignored and that the government isn't stepping in isn't an excuse to blame religion for all of that.

You have to ask... WHY are the laws often ignored... WHY isn't the government stepping in?

Its because of the local religion.

Nope, its because of the local culture & tradition.

[Hjallaland]

When I read about things like this, it makes me wish that the British had never left. I mean, economic exploitation aside, they would at least never have allowed these sorts of practices to continue. Sometimes it makes you wonder whether or not decolonisation was a good thing or not...

It was a good thing, but Europe was just terrible at it.

[Rusozak]

I think it's more a case that they don't mindlessly agree with it.
It requires significant mental resources and time to rationalize their rejection of it as somehow still being what the prophet intended, or rationalize their way through all the numerous absurdities and inconsistencies common to religious narratives.

So I actually agree with him. Muslims do not mindlessly agree with the Koran.

Then they should stop being religious...

As I've said, if someone disagrees with their religion's holy book, or their religion's founding prophet, they really should cease being religious.

If someone disagrees with their political ideology of choice, why would they continue being an adherent of it. Such inconsistency.

You seem to think it is only possible to be atheist or a religious extremist, possibly to justify hatred for religion. So long as we don't let the hardliners have any power over other people, religion is actually quite benign.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

So given Yemens rather divisive conflict between the Sunni, and the Shiites within whatever is left of the failed state. I have to ask just which sect was the child bride arranged to be married in?

Details are important, and I didn't see anything in the article about that.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

When I read about things like this, it makes me wish that the British had never left. I mean, economic exploitation aside, they would at least never have allowed these sorts of practices to continue. Sometimes it makes you wonder whether or not decolonisation was a good thing or not...

It was a good thing, but Europe was just terrible at it.

At most it was mixed given the end goal was clearly to benefit the homelands more than the colonies. Eventually the economic imbalance would have made things even worse had it continued.

[Infected Mushroom]

Well...

It really all goes back to religion.



You have to ask... WHY are the laws often ignored... WHY isn't the government stepping in?

Its because of the local religion.

Nope, its because of the local culture & tradition.

which are religious in nature

[The Rich Port]

I've seen a few people erroneously mention that teenagers are "ideal" and "evolutionarily" adapted to giving birth.

That's a big fat lie.

Babies born to teenage mothers are more likely to be stillborn, to be ectopic, to be under-weight, to have developmental disorders, and, most importantly, to cause physical, psychological, economic, social and reproductive damage to the mother.

The marriage of children is disgusting and it should be illegal all over the world.

[The Archregimancy]

When I read about things like this, it makes me wish that the British had never left. I mean, economic exploitation aside, they would at least never have allowed these sorts of practices to continue. Sometimes it makes you wonder whether or not decolonisation was a good thing or not...

The OP says that the incident occurred in 'in the tribal area of Hardh in northwestern Yemen, which borders Saudi Arabia'.

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but that makes it sound as if the incident occurred in what used to be North Yemen - which was never a British colony or protectorate.

The part of Yemen that was controlled by the British was the former South Yemen, which was formed out of the former Aden Colony (a colony proper) and the Aden Protectorate (formed out a series of loose protectorate agreement with traditional sultanates, which survived as theoretically sovereign entities until 1967).

If the incident occurred in North Yemen, then decolonisation is irrelevant because it was never British. If it occurred in the former Aden Protectorate, then British law never applied.

Only Aden proper was a full, formal colony under direct British colonial control.

[Lydenburg]

Well, there's no way to enforce anything in Yemen now. The most we can do is report it. There's just nothing you can do on the ground when the country is as unstable as it is.