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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:28 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:It's really not all that obvious why God likes to tempt people to see how loyal HE made them.

He didn't really tempt them, He told them NOT to eat from it. Simply putting it there wasn't tempting them.


Just like your parents putting your favorite flavor of cake on a plate in front of you on the table and telling you not to eat it before they left the house. You are going to be tempted to eat that cake and you are going to be a fool if you don't eat that cake.
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Nationes Pii Redivivi
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:28 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:That's option a. God necessarily defines morality. He is good. Else he is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.

God decides what sin is. God decides that there is such a thing as sin. God can make eating shellfish sinful and murdering everyone in a town holy. He's the legislative, executive, and judicial branch all in one. He makes the rules. He interprets the rules. And, to some degree, he enforces the rules. He who makes the rules must answer to them. If there are concepts independent of God, then God necessarily is not the beginning of all things in the universe, not the lone creator Christian mythology relies upon. God has created these concepts, so he has to answer for why he did so and why he uses them so.

You assume that's the reason the tree of knowledge was there. Where in the bible does it say that, again?

It's pretty obvious if you understand Christian theology. And besides, why else would it be there?



The problem is that it is only obvious to you, Grand Calvert, because you have trouble accepting anything outside your particular theology, that is to say, that people may interpret verses different.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:28 pm

Jochistan wrote:I didn't know that the Old testament was seen as infallible and uncorrupted and unabrogated by the teachings of Christ. By a lot of/most Christians.

I write from an American perspective, which is heavily influenced by the sola scriptura interpretations of evangelical Christianity.
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Postby Constantinopolis » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:28 pm

I'm going to jump back in while I have a few extra minutes...

Grand Calvert wrote:Ultimately humans are created for God's glory and pleasure, and so when we seek to pleasure ourselves over Him who created us, we are acting sinfully. We are putting ourselves above our Creator, which He takes as an insult (and it is).

Ok, here we strongly disagree. This is one of the differences between Calvinism and Orthodox Christianity. Humans are not created for God's glory and pleasure. Humans are created to join in communion with God, to participate in His divine nature, to become one with Him and with each other, as Jesus prayed.

Setgavarius wrote:I wouldn't say it's neccessarily nihilistic to slaver to a cosmic dictator. Seems damn creepy, sure.

Well, if we're in the business of using highly inaccurate but amusing metaphors to describe people's beliefs...

Calvinists want to slaver to a cosmic dictator.

Orthodox Christians want to join a cosmic hive mind, breaking down the barriers between self and others, and gaining perfect love and understanding of the mysteries of the universe.

The communion that began with the three persons of the Triune God has grown, and will continue to grow to include all the saints who reach theosis. This is ultimately the purpose of life in the universe. To be joined with God by participating in His divine nature.

And if you don't want to join the cosmic hive mind, you don't have to. You can remain separate. That's what "hell" means. And perhaps now you will find it easier to understand how Christians believe that unrepentant sinners condemn themselves to hell. God doesn't send anyone to hell; people send themselves to hell because they do not want what heaven is offering.

Unless Saint Gregory of Nyssa was right about apocatastasis. In that case, you might say that... resistance is futile. 8)
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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:29 pm

Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:It's pretty obvious if you understand Christian theology. And besides, why else would it be there?



The problem is that it is only obvious to you, Grand Calvert, because you have trouble accepting anything outside your particular theology, that is to say, that people may interpret verses different.


That and it would appear that our friend Calvert hear also believes that everybody thinks free will is an acceptable excuse when in reality some people don't believe in free will.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:29 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:He didn't really tempt them, He told them NOT to eat from it. Simply putting it there wasn't tempting them.

"Do NOT do this thing that I have made you to desire and placed in front of you and not given you the knowledge to discern good and evil so my words are basically nothing to you anyway."

Nope. Not temptation.
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Nationes Pii Redivivi
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:29 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:It's really not all that obvious why God likes to tempt people to see how loyal HE made them.

He didn't really tempt them, He told them NOT to eat from it. Simply putting it there wasn't tempting them.


Then you are missing out on the point of the story, which is for God to see if they are able to resist temptation, though he knows, ultimately, that they won't.

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:30 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:The thing you showed under the spoiler is from a passage in the Bible that showed what happened to Israel when they put their own desires before God's-"when every man did what was right in his eyes" as the Bible puts it. Keep in mind just because someone in the Bible does something, that doesn't mean that the Bible is telling you to do it. Just describing the situation at the time.

Moses was commanded by God to give His laws to the Hebrews.

Leviticus is literally God's law.

That passage in Judges says there was no KING in Israel. If you'll remember, God got pretty pissy about the Israelites getting a king, so presumably the kingless society was his preferred one.

No, the end of that Judges says, "each man did what was right in his eyes" as in, not God's.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:30 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:The thing you showed under the spoiler is from a passage in the Bible that showed what happened to Israel when they put their own desires before God's-"when every man did what was right in his eyes" as the Bible puts it. Keep in mind just because someone in the Bible does something, that doesn't mean that the Bible is telling you to do it. Just describing the situation at the time.

Moses was commanded by God to give His laws to the Hebrews.

Leviticus is literally God's law.

That passage in Judges says there was no KING in Israel. If you'll remember, God got pretty pissy about the Israelites getting a king, so presumably the kingless society was his preferred one.

Not just God, but a lot of Israelites actually liked being ruled by God directly (an actual theocracy) compared to say the Vatican (which is ruled by priests in the name of God). In fact they were pretty mad when Saul came around because they didn't want a tyrant.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:32 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:No, the end of that Judges says, "each man did what was right in his eyes" as in, not God's.

Each man did what was RIGHT in his eyes, as in, their interpretation of God's will which he apparently was reluctant to correct as seen in First Samuel.
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Postby Italios » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:32 pm

The Hobbesian Metaphysician wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Moses was commanded by God to give His laws to the Hebrews.

Leviticus is literally God's law.

That passage in Judges says there was no KING in Israel. If you'll remember, God got pretty pissy about the Israelites getting a king, so presumably the kingless society was his preferred one.

Not just God, but a lot of Israelites actually liked being ruled by God directly (an actual theocracy) compared to say the Vatican (which is ruled by priests in the name of God). In fact they were pretty made when Saul came around because they didn't want a tyrant.

I thought they wanted a king to be like other nations, and have someone to lead them into war, etc., although they were warned against it?
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:33 pm

Ok, here we strongly disagree. This is one of the differences between Calvinism and Orthodox Christianity. Humans are not created for God's glory and pleasure. Humans are created to join in communion with God, to participate in His divine nature, to become one with Him and with each other, as Jesus prayed.

Yeah but joining in communion with Him does please and glorify Him. So there I think we actually do agree
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Postby Grenartia » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:33 pm

-The West Coast- wrote:Shocker! a Christian organization is against gay marriage. Not really big news, is it?


I know this is hard for you, but Christian =/= anti-LGBT.
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Nationes Pii Redivivi
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:34 pm

Constantinopolis wrote:Well, if we're in the business of using highly inaccurate but amusing metaphors to describe people's beliefs...

Calvinists want to slaver to a cosmic dictator.

Orthodox Christians want to join a cosmic hive mind, breaking down the barriers between self and others, and gaining perfect love and understanding of the mysteries of the universe.


Simplifying and misinterpreting Calvinism, much, innit?

And if you don't want to join the cosmic hive mind, you don't have to. You can remain separate. That's what "hell" means. And perhaps now you will find it easier to understand how Christians believe that unrepentant sinners condemn themselves to hell. God doesn't send anyone to hell; people send themselves to hell because they do not want what heaven is offering.


And God is omniscient and omnipotent, meaning he created this universe with the known outcome of every single individual, and he is able to create a universe where the known outcome of every single individual is different. You are not extracting God from Double Election, you are just masking it in theological feel good wording.

Unless Saint Gregory of Nyssa was right about apocatastasis. In that case, you might say that... resistance is futile. 8)


Or that we need to redefine free will from the frankly incoherent libertarian notion to one that makes more sense in light of scriptures.

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:34 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:No, the end of that Judges says, "each man did what was right in his eyes" as in, not God's.

Each man did what was RIGHT in his eyes, as in, their interpretation of God's will which he apparently was reluctant to correct as seen in First Samuel.

No, they just did what was right in their eyes with no concern for what God really wanted.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:35 pm

Kannap wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:He didn't really tempt them, He told them NOT to eat from it. Simply putting it there wasn't tempting them.


Just like your parents putting your favorite flavor of cake on a plate in front of you on the table and telling you not to eat it before they left the house. You are going to be tempted to eat that cake and you are going to be a fool if you don't eat that cake.


You know whats funny is neither Adam nor Eve claimed responsibility for doing said action. Which is primarily the big reason why God had them kicked out of the garden. Its literally right there in the verses where both of them turn on each other, and God basically goes "go fuck yourself". I remember an Old Testament Scholar describing to me the raw emotion on the part of God, and how he refused to pretty much deal with Adam, and Eve ever again (for the most part).
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:35 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:The thing you showed under the spoiler is from a passage in the Bible that showed what happened to Israel when they put their own desires before God's-"when every man did what was right in his eyes" as the Bible puts it. Keep in mind just because someone in the Bible does something, that doesn't mean that the Bible is telling you to do it. Just describing the situation at the time.

Moses was commanded by God to give His laws to the Hebrews.

Leviticus is literally God's law.

That passage in Judges says there was no KING in Israel. If you'll remember, God got pretty pissy about the Israelites getting a king, so presumably the kingless society was his preferred one.


Laws that apparently weren't important enough to carve into the stone tablets, but whatever.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:36 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:No, they just did what was right in their eyes with no concern for what God really wanted.

Considering that the verse emphasizes a kingless society caused that state of affairs and considering God's subsequent reluctance to give the Israelites a king, what is your proof for that claim?
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Postby Kannap » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:36 pm

Grenartia wrote:
-The West Coast- wrote:Shocker! a Christian organization is against gay marriage. Not really big news, is it?


I know this is hard for you, but Christian =/= anti-LGBT.


Some Christians unfortunately think that it should.
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:36 pm

Kannap wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:He didn't really tempt them, He told them NOT to eat from it. Simply putting it there wasn't tempting them.


Just like your parents putting your favorite flavor of cake on a plate in front of you on the table and telling you not to eat it before they left the house. You are going to be tempted to eat that cake and you are going to be a fool if you don't eat that cake.

Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature yet; they were free to choose.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:37 pm

Italios wrote:
The Hobbesian Metaphysician wrote:Not just God, but a lot of Israelites actually liked being ruled by God directly (an actual theocracy) compared to say the Vatican (which is ruled by priests in the name of God). In fact they were pretty made when Saul came around because they didn't want a tyrant.

I thought they wanted a king to be like other nations, and have someone to lead them into war, etc., although they were warned against it?

They certainly were warned against it, but decades of judges coming up, and then disappearing had changed the opinion of most of the Israelites. Once Saul fell, and David fled into exile with the Philistines many really wanted a king in the southern tribes, but the north pretty much was left alone.
Last edited by The Hobbesian Metaphysician on Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:37 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:No, they just did what was right in their eyes with no concern for what God really wanted.

Considering that the verse emphasizes a kingless society caused that state of affairs and considering God's subsequent reluctance to give the Israelites a king, what is your proof for that claim?

Because that's the point of the whole story.
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Saved...

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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:38 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Kannap wrote:
Just like your parents putting your favorite flavor of cake on a plate in front of you on the table and telling you not to eat it before they left the house. You are going to be tempted to eat that cake and you are going to be a fool if you don't eat that cake.

Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature yet; they were free to choose.


That implies they had the freedom to choose. Once again, perhaps they were always predestined to eat from the tree, which makes sense.
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Postby The Flutterlands » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:38 pm

Kannap wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
I know this is hard for you, but Christian =/= anti-LGBT.


Some Christians unfortunately think that it should.

I find it gravely unfortunate.
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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:38 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Ok, here we strongly disagree. This is one of the differences between Calvinism and Orthodox Christianity. Humans are not created for God's glory and pleasure. Humans are created to join in communion with God, to participate in His divine nature, to become one with Him and with each other, as Jesus prayed.

Yeah but joining in communion with Him does please and glorify Him. So there I think we actually do agree

Yes, you could interpret them as two different ways of saying the same thing.

But putting more emphasis on the communion aspect is important, because it's a reminder that the same thing which gives God glory and pleasure is also the best thing that could happen to us. It's OUR greatest good too, in addition to being God's glory and pleasure. The proper words to describe what God wants are words like "communion", "joining", "unity", "symbiosis", "becoming one", etc.
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