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Anglican church against gay marriage

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:06 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:Except that God has never told me to do those things.

God's told plenty of people to murder and rape. Old Testament's overflowing with that shit.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:07 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:Except that God has never told me to do those things.

God's told plenty of people to murder and rape. Old Testament's overflowing with that shit.


And he's apparently revealed himself to some people who post on here.
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:08 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:What? I choose option c, where God is the very definition of good, which is what pretty much all Christians believe.

That's option a. God necessarily defines morality. He is good. Else he is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.
And anyways, He did not create sin, Adam and Eve chose to sin.

God decides what sin is. God decides that there is such a thing as sin. God can make eating shellfish sinful and murdering everyone in a town holy. He's the legislative, executive, and judicial branch all in one. He makes the rules. He interprets the rules. And, to some degree, he enforces the rules. He who makes the rules must answer to them. If there are concepts independent of God, then God necessarily is not the beginning of all things in the universe, not the lone creator Christian mythology relies upon. God has created these concepts, so he has to answer for why he did so and why he uses them so.
You see, in order for Adam to truly be loyal to God, which is what He wants, there has to be something else. Something besides God. So that's what the Tree was there for. For Adam to prove his loyalty (which he failed at).

You assume that's the reason the tree of knowledge was there. Where in the bible does it say that, again?

It's pretty obvious if you understand Christian theology. And besides, why else would it be there?
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:09 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:Except that God has never told me to do those things.

God's told plenty of people to murder and rape. Old Testament's overflowing with that shit.

He's never told anyone to rape, and yes He has told people to kill but that doesn't mean I have to kill someone.
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“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:11 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:It's pretty obvious if you understand Christian theology.

That's the problem: I do understand Christian theology. I understand it, and I understand that much of it is contradictory, and some of it is self-contradictory. I've been reading theology since a young age. First when I was a good little Christian boy, and then with broader scope when I decided that all of it was nonsense. I know my enemies very well. I understand. Give me an explanation based on your interpretation of two thousand years of Christian theology to explain the answers to my questions, or admit that you have no answer.

*note: I'm not demanding citations of St. Augustine or anything, I just mean I want a solid answer, even if it's all you and your bible*
And besides, why else would it be there?

"God works in mysterious ways"

It's not really your place to question or assume God's motives, is it?
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:12 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:That's option a. God necessarily defines morality. He is good. Else he is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.

God decides what sin is. God decides that there is such a thing as sin. God can make eating shellfish sinful and murdering everyone in a town holy. He's the legislative, executive, and judicial branch all in one. He makes the rules. He interprets the rules. And, to some degree, he enforces the rules. He who makes the rules must answer to them. If there are concepts independent of God, then God necessarily is not the beginning of all things in the universe, not the lone creator Christian mythology relies upon. God has created these concepts, so he has to answer for why he did so and why he uses them so.

You assume that's the reason the tree of knowledge was there. Where in the bible does it say that, again?

It's pretty obvious if you understand Christian theology. And besides, why else would it be there?


Really?

Because I've been studying Christian theology since I was a kid and I still don't understand it, principally because it's foundations are unsound.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:13 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:Back to the Anglican Chuch's sanctioning of the Episcopalian. perhaps the Episcopalian Church should break from the world wide Anglican communion in that, apparently, their more liberal views are not tolerated in the worldwide Church.


If I know religious people as much as I do, if it means getting funding from the greater Anglican Communion, they'll probably take it "under advisement" indefinitely, at the very least.

Anglican Nuremberg Defense: "We did it for the alms."

Wow.

Pulling the war crimes card is rather much.
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:13 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:How is it nihilist? Nihilism means that life is meaningless. Living your life for God is the opposite of nihilism.

It's actually very nihilist. Living your life solely for another being without any values or principles independent of that being is nihilist. If God tells you left is right, it's so, even if he's not telling the truth. If God tells you to rape and murder, you go and get your murderin' boots on, because God is your only meaning in life.

Religious meaning in life is still meaning in life - something rejected by existential nihilists.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:14 pm

The Rich Port wrote:Really?

Because I've been studying Christian theology since I was a kid and I still don't understand it, principally because it's foundations are unsound.

Understanding something is different from considering something a strong position to hold. I understand fascism pretty well, but I don't think it's a particularly sound position or on a solid foundation.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:14 pm

Lucarton wrote:A church against gay marriage -- what a surprise. :palm:

Eww generalizations.
I am just going to lay it out here, I am going to be very blunt.

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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:15 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:It's pretty obvious if you understand Christian theology.

That's the problem: I do understand Christian theology. I understand it, and I understand that much of it is contradictory, and some of it is self-contradictory. I've been reading theology since a young age. First when I was a good little Christian boy, and then with broader scope when I decided that all of it was nonsense. I know my enemies very well. I understand. Give me an explanation based on your interpretation of two thousand years of Christian theology to explain the answers to my questions, or admit that you have no answer.

*note: I'm not demanding citations of St. Augustine or anything, I just mean I want a solid answer, even if it's all you and your bible*
And besides, why else would it be there?

"God works in mysterious ways"

It's not really your place to question or assume God's motives, is it?

Ultimately there's no single Bible verse that says why the Tree was there. But in order for Adam and Eve to truly have a free-will there had to have been something other than God for them to choose. It's just obvious if you know the story.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

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Sola Fide (through faith alone)
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:15 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:It's pretty obvious if you understand Christian theology. And besides, why else would it be there?


Really?

Because I've been studying Christian theology since I was a kid and I still don't understand it, principally because it's foundations are unsound.

It's not unsound, it makes perfect sense.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:16 pm

The Hobbesian Metaphysician wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
If I know religious people as much as I do, if it means getting funding from the greater Anglican Communion, they'll probably take it "under advisement" indefinitely, at the very least.

Anglican Nuremberg Defense: "We did it for the alms."

Wow.

Pulling the war crimes card is rather much.


I'm not pulling it so much as I'm... Referencing it.

I find a lot of religious theological politics to be highly disingenuous.

At the end of the day, for as much as people tell me otherwise, there always seems to be ulterior reason to holy madness.

And it's usually something very simple. Money, power, respect, popularity.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Suominona wrote:This just in, facts are bigoted.

That's not a fact. The Anglican Church isn't doing anything harmful by upholding traditional marriage.

You mean their definition, and certainly not everyone elses.
I am just going to lay it out here, I am going to be very blunt.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:19 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:He's never told anyone to rape, and yes He has told people to kill but that doesn't mean I have to kill someone.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

21:7 How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing we have sworn by the LORD that we will not give them of our daughters to wives?
21:8 And they said, What one is there of the tribes of Israel that came not up to Mizpeh to the LORD? And, behold, there came none to the camp from Jabeshgilead to the assembly.
21:9 For the people were numbered, and, behold, there were none of the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead there.
21:10 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children.
21:11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.
21:12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.
21:13 And the whole congregation sent some to speak to the children of Benjamin that were in the rock Rimmon, and to call peaceably unto them.
21:14 And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabeshgilead: and yet so they sufficed them not.
21:15 And the people repented them for Benjamin, because that the LORD had made a breach in the tribes of Israel.
21:16 Then the elders of the congregation said, How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing the women are destroyed out of Benjamin?
21:17 And they said, There must be an inheritance for them that be escaped of Benjamin, that a tribe be not destroyed out of Israel.
21:18 Howbeit we may not give them wives of our daughters: for the children of Israel have sworn, saying, Cursed be he that giveth a wife to Benjamin.
21:19 Then they said, Behold, there is a feast of the LORD in Shiloh yearly in a place which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goeth up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south of Lebonah.
21:20 Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards;
21:21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.
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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:19 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:That's the problem: I do understand Christian theology. I understand it, and I understand that much of it is contradictory, and some of it is self-contradictory. I've been reading theology since a young age. First when I was a good little Christian boy, and then with broader scope when I decided that all of it was nonsense. I know my enemies very well. I understand. Give me an explanation based on your interpretation of two thousand years of Christian theology to explain the answers to my questions, or admit that you have no answer.

*note: I'm not demanding citations of St. Augustine or anything, I just mean I want a solid answer, even if it's all you and your bible*

"God works in mysterious ways"

It's not really your place to question or assume God's motives, is it?

Ultimately there's no single Bible verse that says why the Tree was there. But in order for Adam and Eve to truly have a free-will there had to have been something other than God for them to choose. It's just obvious if you know the story.


Perhaps they were predestined to eat from that tree.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:20 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:Ultimately there's no single Bible verse that says why the Tree was there. But in order for Adam and Eve to truly have a free-will there had to have been something other than God for them to choose. It's just obvious if you know the story.

It's really not all that obvious why God likes to tempt people to see how loyal HE made them.
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The balkens
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Postby The balkens » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:21 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:It's actually very nihilist. Living your life solely for another being without any values or principles independent of that being is nihilist. If God tells you left is right, it's so, even if he's not telling the truth. If God tells you to rape and murder, you go and get your murderin' boots on, because God is your only meaning in life.

Except that God has never told me to do those things.

can you idenify god for jury?

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Postby Jochistan » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:21 pm

Kauthar wrote:i would be happy but anglicans are heretics, i would go as far as saying infidels.

Compared to what denomination, Catholic? The church they have sich Minor doctrinal disagreements with?
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:23 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:He's never told anyone to rape, and yes He has told people to kill but that doesn't mean I have to kill someone.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

21:7 How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing we have sworn by the LORD that we will not give them of our daughters to wives?
21:8 And they said, What one is there of the tribes of Israel that came not up to Mizpeh to the LORD? And, behold, there came none to the camp from Jabeshgilead to the assembly.
21:9 For the people were numbered, and, behold, there were none of the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead there.
21:10 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children.
21:11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.
21:12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.
21:13 And the whole congregation sent some to speak to the children of Benjamin that were in the rock Rimmon, and to call peaceably unto them.
21:14 And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabeshgilead: and yet so they sufficed them not.
21:15 And the people repented them for Benjamin, because that the LORD had made a breach in the tribes of Israel.
21:16 Then the elders of the congregation said, How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing the women are destroyed out of Benjamin?
21:17 And they said, There must be an inheritance for them that be escaped of Benjamin, that a tribe be not destroyed out of Israel.
21:18 Howbeit we may not give them wives of our daughters: for the children of Israel have sworn, saying, Cursed be he that giveth a wife to Benjamin.
21:19 Then they said, Behold, there is a feast of the LORD in Shiloh yearly in a place which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goeth up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south of Lebonah.
21:20 Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards;
21:21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

The thing you showed under the spoiler is from a passage in the Bible that showed what happened to Israel when they put their own desires before God's-"when every man did what was right in his eyes" as the Bible puts it. Keep in mind just because someone in the Bible does something, that doesn't mean that the Bible is telling you to do it. Just describing the situation at the time.
17 year-old Conservative Reformed Baptist
“So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also!” -Martin Luther

Saved...

Sola Gratia (by grace alone)
Sola Fide (through faith alone)
Solus Christus (in Christ alone)
Sola Scriptura (according to scripture alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (for the glory of God alone)

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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:24 pm

Kannap wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:Ultimately there's no single Bible verse that says why the Tree was there. But in order for Adam and Eve to truly have a free-will there had to have been something other than God for them to choose. It's just obvious if you know the story.


Perhaps they were predestined to eat from that tree.

Hobbes certainly made that argument.

Of course Hobbes also believed God was corporeal, and composed of matter while also believing the soul decomposed into matter after death (not permanently of course).
I am just going to lay it out here, I am going to be very blunt.

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Jochistan
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Postby Jochistan » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:24 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:He's never told anyone to rape, and yes He has told people to kill but that doesn't mean I have to kill someone.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

21:7 How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing we have sworn by the LORD that we will not give them of our daughters to wives?
21:8 And they said, What one is there of the tribes of Israel that came not up to Mizpeh to the LORD? And, behold, there came none to the camp from Jabeshgilead to the assembly.
21:9 For the people were numbered, and, behold, there were none of the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead there.
21:10 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children.
21:11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.
21:12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.
21:13 And the whole congregation sent some to speak to the children of Benjamin that were in the rock Rimmon, and to call peaceably unto them.
21:14 And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabeshgilead: and yet so they sufficed them not.
21:15 And the people repented them for Benjamin, because that the LORD had made a breach in the tribes of Israel.
21:16 Then the elders of the congregation said, How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing the women are destroyed out of Benjamin?
21:17 And they said, There must be an inheritance for them that be escaped of Benjamin, that a tribe be not destroyed out of Israel.
21:18 Howbeit we may not give them wives of our daughters: for the children of Israel have sworn, saying, Cursed be he that giveth a wife to Benjamin.
21:19 Then they said, Behold, there is a feast of the LORD in Shiloh yearly in a place which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goeth up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south of Lebonah.
21:20 Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards;
21:21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

I didn't know that the Old testament was seen as infallible and uncorrupted and unabrogated by the teachings of Christ. By a lot of/most Christians.
Last edited by Jochistan on Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grand Calvert
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Postby Grand Calvert » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:25 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Grand Calvert wrote:Ultimately there's no single Bible verse that says why the Tree was there. But in order for Adam and Eve to truly have a free-will there had to have been something other than God for them to choose. It's just obvious if you know the story.

It's really not all that obvious why God likes to tempt people to see how loyal HE made them.

He didn't really tempt them, He told them NOT to eat from it. Simply putting it there wasn't tempting them.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:25 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:Really?

Because I've been studying Christian theology since I was a kid and I still don't understand it, principally because it's foundations are unsound.

Understanding something is different from considering something a strong position to hold. I understand fascism pretty well, but I don't think it's a particularly sound position or on a solid foundation.


And frankly why I avoid theological debates.

If the foundations are unsound, the validity is often superficial, snowflakes over a field of cow manure.

Things may not be necessarily illogical, but they're not founded in truth, and vice versa.

A big reason I became an atheist was that, for all the talk of honesty and introspection, a lot of religious people, both in my life and evidently all over the world, are concerned only with their own interpretation of reality.

Funny that you use Fascism as an example... :lol:

But, you're right. I shouldn't be here if I don't even agree with the presumptions of the great invisible man that some people hear sometimes but not always.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:27 pm

Grand Calvert wrote:The thing you showed under the spoiler is from a passage in the Bible that showed what happened to Israel when they put their own desires before God's-"when every man did what was right in his eyes" as the Bible puts it. Keep in mind just because someone in the Bible does something, that doesn't mean that the Bible is telling you to do it. Just describing the situation at the time.

Moses was commanded by God to give His laws to the Hebrews.

Leviticus is literally God's law.

That passage in Judges says there was no KING in Israel. If you'll remember, God got pretty pissy about the Israelites getting a king, so presumably the kingless society was his preferred one.
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