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Are these still Socialist Nations?

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New Aeyariss
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Postby New Aeyariss » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:35 am

Do you realize that there is a grave difference between a corporation and a cooperative? Obviously you don´t and this 1 of the gravest mistakes many people make.


I do. And that changes nothing.

And again this is planned economy where the party literally runs and controlls the economy, in fascism this is not the case, the companies are still owned and ran by corporate owners. They are also in private hands as well and not in public hands like the state for example. There is a huge difference here that you just brush aside as it it didn´t exist.


In any communist system like the one my RL county had, it was government that controlled all corporations. In short, they served the government, were managed by it, etc. The principle of control was far more masked, but in fact it was in Nazi germany where corporate property was nominal.

If you are to short sighted to even realize these simple differences then I can´t help you. But nonetheless you are false i´m sorry.

Next: First of all: Mussolini just like hitler used Popular socialist SLOGANS to gain supporters and rise to power. All fascists except for the ones set up by the west like batista in fact did this, be it mussolini, franco, shek or hitler. Hitler for example promised to also abolish interest rates in 1930, and wrote a lot on that. As soon as he was in power in 1933 nothing changed and interest rates continued to exist as they had before. It is the same game with mussolini adopting a populist line to gather in supporters ro rise to power. And as soon as he was in power like hitler, he kept capitalism and rather went for corporatism, examples of that in history and their corporate policies are rampant and to many to even count.

Secondly: No this was neither done in italy nor in nazigermany if you read about their economies and how they were managed. As of such it is easy to see that this was nothing but a populist shame to gather voters. And again it is a common practive, even today, for fascists to lure in voters by making socialist promises.


And what evidences you have that communist don't use popular slogans to deceive the population into electing them, because government ownership of all means of production gives them money beyond grasp of any CEO?

Next point: Way to go to totally take things out of context. With dictatorship the dictatorship of the proletariat is meant, i.e. the dictatorship of the workers. And guess what a dictatorship of the masses results in? It results inevitably in democracy actually. Also if you read marx and engels you will see whilst they took from hegels ideas and refined them, they also criticized his ideas in a lot of other areas. There is in fact an entire pamplethe by marx and engels dedicated to the criticism oh hegel. And 1 point criticized by marx and engels was in fact hegels statist realsocialist system. Which lenin then later took on to change that into the vanguard theory using a realsocialist model of hegel which is meant as a temporar vanguard to guide a society from feudalism or capitalism towards socialism. This is what the entire vanguard theory bases on.


Point me please to one socialist state where the "democracy", was achieved. I have yet to see a communist party in power not followed by massive bloodbath. After all, isn't communism about revolution?

Also one has to ask if what you say is true, then how come that concepts like the dictatorship of the proletariat, council communism/democracy, social democracy, direct democracy etc. All were put into existance by mostly communist scholars?

As said you totally take things out of historical context here and again show us that you literally understood nothing about socialism and communism in history, nor their theory, at all.


Direct democracy has nothing to do with socialism. Remaining ones are... sufficient to say, not positive in my opinion, for very simple reason. Communism aims for an uptopian (perfect) society, and utopian society can't tolerate pluralism of opinion, because they strive away from perfection.
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Azurius
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Founded: Dec 18, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Azurius » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:42 am

New Aeyariss wrote:
Azurius wrote:Next: First of all communism was often corrupted by outside factors and often on full purpose by these outside powers to. The total unharsh treatment of socialist parties also led to a lot of them radicalizing or going extreme as a result of unfair repressions and attacks by the rest of the world.


Excuse me but with all due respect, if we take original quotes of Marx and Engels into account, they seem to totally disagree with you just as you claim John Smith disagrees with capitalism. I will post several quotes in here, please do not that I by no way am endorsing them not attempting to bait, just citing historical communist quotes to prove my point:

"This is our calling, that we shall become the templars of this Grail, gird the sword round our loins for its sake and stake our lives joyfully in the last, holy war which will be followed by the thousand-year reign of freedom."
- Friedrich Engels, "Schelling and Revelation: Conclusion", 1841


"The French Revolution was the rise of democracy in Europe. Democracy is, as I take all forms of government to be, a contradiction in itself, an untruth, nothing but hypocrisy (theology, as we Germans call it), at the bottom. Political liberty is sham-liberty, the worst possible sort of slavery; the appearance of liberty, and therefore the worst servitude. Just so also is political equality for me; therefore democracy, as well as every other form of government, must ultimately break to pieces."
- Friedrich Engels, "Frankreich", 1843


"...the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terrorism."
- Karl Marx, "The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna," Neue Rheinische Zeitung, 7 November 1848.


"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
- Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels "Suppression of the Neue Rheinische Zeitung", Neue Rheinische Zeitung, May 19, 1849


"Society is undergoing a silent revolution, which must be submitted to, and which takes no more notice of the human existences it breaks down than an earthquake regards the houses it subverts. The classes and the races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way."
- Karl Marx, "Forced Emigration", New York Tribune 1853:


"Among all the nations and sub-nations of Austria, only three standard-bearers of progress took an active part in history, and are still capable of life -- the Germans, the Poles and the Magyars. Hence they are now revolutionary. All the other large and small nationalities and peoples are destined to perish before long in the revolutionary holocaust. ["world storm" ? J.D.] For that reason they are now counter-revolutionary. ...these residual fragments of peoples always become fanatical standard-bearers of counter-revolution and remain so until their complete extirpation or loss of their national character ... [A general war will] wipe out all these racial trash [Völkerabfälle - original was given at Marxist websites as "petty hidebound nations" J.D.] down to their very names. The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire reactionary peoples. And that, too, is a step forward."
- Friedrich Engels, "The Magyar Struggle," Neue Rheinische Zeitung, January 13, 1849


"The man is too wise. And on top of that, such offensive, vulgar, democratic arguments! To denigrate violence as something to be rejected, when we all know that in the end nothing can be achieved without violence!"
- Friedrich Engels to Wilhelm Blos, (Letter, 21 February 1874):


As we can observe above, original founding fathers of communism weren't so afraid of expressing their calls for violent revolution.



What has THIS what I said:

"Next: First of all communism was often corrupted by outside factors and often on full purpose by these outside powers to. The total unharsh treatment of socialist parties also led to a lot of them radicalizing or going extreme as a result of unfair repressions and attacks by the rest of the world."

To do with anything you posted as a reply....? How is marxist theory even connected to that in any way at all? This is totally off topic from what I said and my statement but okay.....

Next: No I never said adam smith disagrees with capitalism, nice way to strawman my words and take them out of context entirely(is this by any chance all you can do, take things out of context....?). I said that adam smith saw his theory of capitalism as imperfect and that it could not work without clearl regulations. If you read adam smith that is what he says in his book "the wealth of nations". And hence also why he advocated for things like a hefty tax for high income earners.

To the second quote: You do realize that he talks about the endgoal of communism here in which things like states and governments(and democracy of course beeing a form of government) become obsolote? Obviously not.... Context again darling. Context.

Next quote: What is that supposed to say? It says in short: To overthrow existing terror, you need a new temporar terror of a revolution. Goes hand in hand with the sayings of many comrades that revolutions are no dinner parties, and that the classes in power will never give up their power on their free will and cling to it to the last, which is why a violant revolution is needed to change these conditions. And? How does this oppose anything I said earlier?

Next quote after that only undermines the above quote and what I said about that even further.

Next quote again like above only undermines what I already said.

Next quote: Other then that it was cut together from fragments of an original so much to the point where it loses any accuracy, what of it? It again only overall in conext undermines what I already said. And btw. I also know where you got this bullshit from, cheap anti-communist websites that list anti-communist bullshit to struggle to patheticly "prove" that marx advocated genocide. I have seen these in the past on mass and like this one they are heavily cut together from entire articles to suit what anti-communists like to hear. I can do that with anyone in pretty much any article if I can just cut together single pieces of an entire article. As of such nothing new, nothing I haven´t seen before and also nothing true either, all one has to do is look up the originals by coping and pasting parts of it in google which sooner or later you will find the original with, then read the original and see how badly this is taken out of context and worse like this example even cheaply cut together. And again what is this cheap cut together slogan supposed to say and how does it negate anything I said above and earlier in context?

And the last quote yet again only undermines what I said above.

So.... your entire point exactly is....?

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Azurius
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Azurius » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:53 am

New Aeyariss wrote:
Do you realize that there is a grave difference between a corporation and a cooperative? Obviously you don´t and this 1 of the gravest mistakes many people make.


I do. And that changes nothing.

And again this is planned economy where the party literally runs and controlls the economy, in fascism this is not the case, the companies are still owned and ran by corporate owners. They are also in private hands as well and not in public hands like the state for example. There is a huge difference here that you just brush aside as it it didn´t exist.


In any communist system like the one my RL county had, it was government that controlled all corporations. In short, they served the government, were managed by it, etc. The principle of control was far more masked, but in fact it was in Nazi germany where corporate property was nominal.

If you are to short sighted to even realize these simple differences then I can´t help you. But nonetheless you are false i´m sorry.

Next: First of all: Mussolini just like hitler used Popular socialist SLOGANS to gain supporters and rise to power. All fascists except for the ones set up by the west like batista in fact did this, be it mussolini, franco, shek or hitler. Hitler for example promised to also abolish interest rates in 1930, and wrote a lot on that. As soon as he was in power in 1933 nothing changed and interest rates continued to exist as they had before. It is the same game with mussolini adopting a populist line to gather in supporters ro rise to power. And as soon as he was in power like hitler, he kept capitalism and rather went for corporatism, examples of that in history and their corporate policies are rampant and to many to even count.

Secondly: No this was neither done in italy nor in nazigermany if you read about their economies and how they were managed. As of such it is easy to see that this was nothing but a populist shame to gather voters. And again it is a common practive, even today, for fascists to lure in voters by making socialist promises.


And what evidences you have that communist don't use popular slogans to deceive the population into electing them, because government ownership of all means of production gives them money beyond grasp of any CEO?

Next point: Way to go to totally take things out of context. With dictatorship the dictatorship of the proletariat is meant, i.e. the dictatorship of the workers. And guess what a dictatorship of the masses results in? It results inevitably in democracy actually. Also if you read marx and engels you will see whilst they took from hegels ideas and refined them, they also criticized his ideas in a lot of other areas. There is in fact an entire pamplethe by marx and engels dedicated to the criticism oh hegel. And 1 point criticized by marx and engels was in fact hegels statist realsocialist system. Which lenin then later took on to change that into the vanguard theory using a realsocialist model of hegel which is meant as a temporar vanguard to guide a society from feudalism or capitalism towards socialism. This is what the entire vanguard theory bases on.


Point me please to one socialist state where the "democracy", was achieved. I have yet to see a communist party in power not followed by massive bloodbath. After all, isn't communism about revolution?

Also one has to ask if what you say is true, then how come that concepts like the dictatorship of the proletariat, council communism/democracy, social democracy, direct democracy etc. All were put into existance by mostly communist scholars?

As said you totally take things out of historical context here and again show us that you literally understood nothing about socialism and communism in history, nor their theory, at all.


Direct democracy has nothing to do with socialism. Remaining ones are... sufficient to say, not positive in my opinion, for very simple reason. Communism aims for an uptopian (perfect) society, and utopian society can't tolerate pluralism of opinion, because they strive away from perfection.


Obviously you don´t :rofl:

Again to bad corporations do not exist in socialism or socialist theory my friend. To bad that that was 1 of the points you just completely ignore xD And again if they do exist, then please show us: 1: Where corporations are favored in socialist theory. And 2: Show us some actual socialist countries that allowed or worse even implemented corporations. Because so far you totally failed to do so.


What does this have to do with anything? Communists having or using slogans or not is totally off topic here. And yes they used slogans to gather in support as well, I never denied that either. And? Your piont exactly again is what exactly....?????

You want examples? Okay: Cuba, direct democracy and democracy within a 1 party system North korea: Yes again same game here. Vietnam I don´t know about that in enough details to make a claim here. Germany from 1848 to 1933: Social democracy still allowing monarchy, the socialists here in germany seeked to remove the remains of monarchy via democratic means(this however backfired hardly, see world war 1 and everything that came after that). Nonetheless democracy was implemented here. South africa: The ANC allowed and implemented democracy after the old apartheids regime was overthrown. China: Again a 1 party system combined with direct democratic action. Yugoslavia: Actual council democracy and also cooperative based economy. And I bet if I actually searched I could find a shitton of more examples.

In fact, the fact that we have democracy here in europe is a direct result of socialism and marxism and marxists and socialists FIGHTING for democracy and DYING for it in fact. I could even link you a good documentary on karl marx and the history of europe on that but it is in german and I have not found a translation yet. If you are capable of speaking german I can link you that documentary nonetheless. It also shows you how german marxists were killed in the failed revolutions of france and germany in 1831/1832, who died, literally also fighting for democracy. In 1848 a large set of revolutions happened in europe, a lot of monarchies were either overthrown or lost a lot of power and had to accept parlaments and democracies from then on.

It has to do with the discussion and the context we were discussing as direct democracy directly comes as a theory from german communists. As of such in the mentioned context is has a lot to do with our discussion. As you yet fail to back your bullshit up with any historical proof or evidence. And direct democracies are a good example of why what you said exactly is bullcrap which is why I proceeded to give you direct democracy alongside other examples.

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Lipnitia
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Postby Lipnitia » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:55 am

What about poor little Laos? :(
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Lansuo
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Postby Lansuo » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:58 am

Lipnitia wrote:What about poor little Laos? :(

smol

tiny bit irrelevant

tried to copy vietnam but failed

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Azurius
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Postby Azurius » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:59 am

Lol. Well I have heard that laos like vietnam is socialist, however I know next to nothing about laos. Other then that they have a socialist system or at least had it at some point, and that they focus a lot on green energym I can tell you next to nothing about laos, well except for its role during the vietnam wars.

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Lansuo
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Postby Lansuo » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:01 am

Laotian food is good though. Also their language is very similar to Thai. And that's also all I know about Laos asie from it being quite smol and rather quiet.
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Vikipolis
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Postby Vikipolis » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:10 am

This whole thread is a trainwreck. You people know that socialism and communism were around before Marx came up with his b#llshit manifesto, right?
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Democratic Socialist States of Africa
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Postby Democratic Socialist States of Africa » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:45 am

Doesn't China fall under the spectrum of being a Liberal Socialist country?

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Postby Jimmy Carter » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:00 am

Democratic Socialist States of Africa wrote:Doesn't China fall under the spectrum of being a Liberal Socialist country?

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Ghuraba Al-Khorusani
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Postby Ghuraba Al-Khorusani » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:02 am

Vietnam is a combination of China and Titoist Yugoslavia.
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Chinese Peoples
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Postby Chinese Peoples » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:06 am

Tokora wrote:-snip-
Cuba?
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Postby Soviet Catalonia » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:29 am

Chinese Peoples wrote:
Tokora wrote:-snip-
Cuba?

cuba is definitely socialist
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Postby Threlizdun » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:01 pm

Democratic Socialist States of Africa wrote:Doesn't China fall under the spectrum of being a Liberal Socialist country?

God no, it isn't remotely close to being either liberal or socialist, and the two systems are incompatible anyways.
Soviet Catalonia wrote:
Chinese Peoples wrote:Cuba?

cuba is definitely socialist

It definitely is not. The means of production are either owned by the state or by private individuals. It's a state capitalist society gradually adopting market reforms.
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Chinese Peoples
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Postby Chinese Peoples » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:43 pm

Threlizdun wrote:
Soviet Catalonia wrote:cuba is definitely socialist

It definitely is not. The means of production are either owned by the state or by private individuals. It's a state capitalist society gradually adopting market reforms.

Ultimately, the state is an agglomeration of citizens, and the citizenry is the body of people with political rights. Everything which is state-owned, including the means of production, can be said to be held by the people indirectly.
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Postby Meryuma » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:50 pm

Lydenburg wrote:
New confederate ramenia wrote:Corporatist doesn't mean corporatocratic or crony capitalist.


Ja Tokora needs to read a dictionary.

The only corporatist head of state I can think of in the past fifty years was Portugal's Salazar.


I thought modern China was corporatist?

Chinese Peoples wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:
It definitely is not. The means of production are either owned by the state or by private individuals. It's a state capitalist society gradually adopting market reforms.

Ultimately, the state is an agglomeration of citizens, and the citizenry is the body of people with political rights. Everything which is state-owned, including the means of production, can be said to be held by the people indirectly.


Even if the state is an absolute monarchy, for instance? That argument would work for maybe a direct democracy but that's about it.
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Postby Chinese Peoples » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:59 pm

Meryuma wrote:
Chinese Peoples wrote:Ultimately, the state is an agglomeration of citizens, and the citizenry is the body of people with political rights. Everything which is state-owned, including the means of production, can be said to be held by the people indirectly.


Even if the state is an absolute monarchy, for instance? That argument would work for maybe a direct democracy but that's about it.

In any republic, the state is the body of citizens. Whether the state vests its power in one individual (an autocracy) or in all of its components (a democracy) is another matter.
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Postby Democratic Socialist States of Africa » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:45 pm

Threlizdun wrote:
Democratic Socialist States of Africa wrote:Doesn't China fall under the spectrum of being a Liberal Socialist country?

God no, it isn't remotely close to being either liberal or socialist, and the two systems are incompatible anyways.
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_socialism

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Threlizdun
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Postby Threlizdun » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:53 pm

Chinese Peoples wrote:
Meryuma wrote:

Even if the state is an absolute monarchy, for instance? That argument would work for maybe a direct democracy but that's about it.

In any republic, the state is the body of citizens. Whether the state vests its power in one individual (an autocracy) or in all of its components (a democracy) is another matter.

Even when the people don't actually have any real power? When was the last time China had a free and fair election? No, the state does not in any way represent the people. States by their very nature represent the will of the ruling class.
Democratic Socialist States of Africa wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:God no, it isn't remotely close to being either liberal or socialist, and the two systems are incompatible anyways.
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_socialism
Openly states it doesn't actually seek a socialist economy. It's a stupid term for people who understand neither liberalism nor socialism. Liberalism involved belief in multiparty representative democracy, general concessions of political freedoms such as free speech and thought, belief in the utility of the state to help individuals without impeding on their rights, and a belief in a market capitalist economy. Socialism involves social ownership and democratic administration of the means of production. Capitalism involves private ownership and administration of the means of production by the capitalist class. The two systems are incompatible. One cannot be both a liberal and a socialist. A regulated capitalist economy with social support programs provided by the state is just that, a regulated capitalist economy with social support programs provided by the state. It is not in any way socialist.
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Postby Kauthar » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:00 pm

Yes. If they say they're socialists then that makes them socialist.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:30 pm

China. Cuba. Vietnam.

So yes.

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Postby Al-Portug » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:24 pm

Kauthar wrote:Yes. If they say they're socialists then that makes them socialist.

This is really the only good way to see if a country is socialist.
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Threlizdun
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Postby Threlizdun » Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:20 pm

Kauthar wrote:Yes. If they say they're socialists then that makes them socialist.

So when North Korea says its a democratic republic it must obviously be a democratic republic.
Infected Mushroom wrote:China. Cuba. Vietnam.

So yes.
Yes, those are countries that you named. What does that have to do with the question of whether or not they are socialist?
She/they

Communalist, Social Ecologist, Bioregionalist

This site stresses me out, so I rarely come on here anymore. I'll try to be civil and respectful towards those I'm debating on here. If you don't extend the same courtesy then I'll probably just ignore you.

If we've been friendly in the past and you want to keep in touch, shoot me a telegram

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The Northern Chinese Provinces
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 490
Founded: Jan 06, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby The Northern Chinese Provinces » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:58 am

As far as I know, there are no socialist nations existing in the world.

However, that takes for granted that when we refer to "socialist nations" we mean nations that are completely socialist in tendency. If this is not correct, then my answer changes to "yes, but they are not fully fledged".
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¡A las Barricadas! Telegrams welcomed.
The Three Unknowns三不知
I do not know how many soldiers I have, how many friends I have, nor how many enemies I have.兵不知有多少,朋友不知有多少,敌人不知有多少。

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Atomic Utopia
Minister
 
Posts: 2488
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Atomic Utopia » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:10 am

Unfortunately yes (North Korea) but fortunately there are less, and the world is better off for it. I would rather there be some income inequality and have the majority be fairly well off, than have perfect income equality and have all people be in poverty. And mixed market economies are better than either pure socialisim and pure capitalism.

And thankfully it is moving in the other way too, capitalist nations are finding that increased welfare and so on is positive, and while there is some regression there, it is not huge.
Fabulously bisexual.
Note: I do not use NS stats for my RP, instead I use numbers I made up one evening when writing my factbooks.

sudo rm -rf /, the best file compression around.

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