Abortion is Wrong?

[Meldaria]

In order to be alive a creature must be:

A. Self-Aware

B. Self-Dependent
--------------------------------
A. A fetus is not self-aware, it has no idea of it's surroundings and cannot feel pain, nor can it think.

B. A fetus is not self-dependent it relies completely on it's mother for life.

A fetus shares more characteristics with a tumor than a person.

1. Has Human DNA

2. Is NOT alive

3. Is not self-aware
= #2
4. Is not self-dependent

5. Weakens it's host

6. Is constantly growing

So plants, bacteria, fungii, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea aren't alive then?

Actually Plants, Bacteria, Fungi, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea are all self-aware and self-dependent. Please do some research before you come into this thread with nonsense.

[Central Slavia]

In order to be alive a creature must be:

A. Self-Aware

B. Self-Dependent
--------------------------------
A. A fetus is not self-aware, it has no idea of it's surroundings and cannot feel pain, nor can it think.

B. A fetus is not self-dependent it relies completely on it's mother for life.

A fetus shares more characteristics with a tumor than a person.

1. Has Human DNA

2. Is NOT alive

3. Is not self-aware
= #2
4. Is not self-dependent

5. Weakens it's host

6. Is constantly growing

So plants, bacteria, fungii, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea aren't alive then?

Actually Plants, Bacteria, Fungi, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea are all self-aware and self-dependent. Please do some research before you come into this thread with nonsense.

So a parasitic bacterium is not alive?

[Turanbirligi]

there are many strange people. they will kill their children because they want to eat, to drink and live easily instead of take responsibility

[Nobel Hobos]

Riiiiight. And HOW many kids are in foster care all around the world, in orphanages, that NO ONE WANTS? There's over 500,000 in the US alone.
Why should anyone go through the expense, pain, risk of having a child they don't want?

http://myorphanage.org/total%20number%2 ... ildren.php <-- Go look at the statistics here about how many children there are who are not wanted and keep telling us about giving them up to other families.
Answer: they shouldn't.

Which is why you use government/privite sources to care for them, until they care for themslelves.

Yes, and this goes to anther point I made. People shouldn't have sex if they are unwilling to have a child or unable to care for it, all in the name of soley pleasure.

Thus, men should not have sex.

Why? They are not able to "have a chid" in the sense you mean: to incubate it.

Men are not able to incubate a child. Therefore, they are not responsible to incubate a child. Therefore, they should not have sex.

Keep it in your pants, brother. Forever.

[The Ularn]

I do not care about future consequences and nobody should in the way you put it. In the long run we will be dead. We can do what we can for the species to expand and continue. However cutting the population is a truly decadent way to go back on progress, and die out pretty much soon

and the financial collapse's main reason is the capitalist system - throw that out and it will run

Put fifty people in one room and five-hundred people in another. Give them the same amount of food. Tell me which group will die first and then tell me if you've spotted the gargantuan abyss in your logic yet.

[United Russian State]

In order to be alive a creature must be

A. Self-Aware

B. Self-Dependent
--------------------------------
A. A fetus is not self-aware, it has no idea of it's surroundings and cannot feel pain, nor can it think.

B. A fetus is not self-dependent it relies completely on it's mother for life.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Actually Plants, Bacteria, Fungi, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea are all self-aware and self-dependent.

I really, really hope you're either joking or that you don't know what the term self-awareness means.

Please do some research before you come into this thread with nonsense.

If you think trees can pass the mirror test, heal thyself physician.

[Katganistan]

And flamebaiting? calling someone a murderer for pleasure?
Your arguments are not only ignorant and selfish, they are embarassing. Smilies are not a substitute for a real argument. Insulting people is not a substitute for a real argument. "Because I said so" is not a substitute for a real argument.

You know it's kind of hard to agure people who are having sex soley for pleasure, are willing to kill a life formed in them [you know by sex]. Lets time I checked people personally don't need to have sex in order to surive.

No, but it is a requirement for marriage, as was pointed out to you before.

[The Ularn]

there are many strange people. they will kill their children because they want to eat, to drink and live easily instead of take responsibility

Bear in mind that they're also making sure you can eat, drink and live easily since you're not having to share the Earth's limited resources with yet another person. I'd call resource management a pretty responsible thing, to be honest...

[Central Slavia]

I do not care about future consequences and nobody should in the way you put it. In the long run we will be dead. We can do what we can for the species to expand and continue. However cutting the population is a truly decadent way to go back on progress, and die out pretty much soon

and the financial collapse's main reason is the capitalist system - throw that out and it will run

Put fifty people in one room and five-hundred people in another. Give them the same amount of food. Tell me which group will die first and then tell me if you've spotted the gargantuan abyss in your logic yet.

if the amount is a truckload , then the 50 are going to die sooner, assuming some accident rate.
Abyss averted

[Arkinesia]

In order to kill something it must be alive. According to the scientific definition of life, a fetus is not alive until it's been in the womb for precisely 6 months.

No, the fetus is life as soon as it comes into existence. Spermatozoa and ova aren't alive, because they lack the ability to self replicate. However, since the blastocyst is diploid, it is technically alive. It's just as alive as any bacterial colony. Now, whether it's important life is an entirely different matter altogether.

In order to be alive a creature must be:

A. Self-Aware

B. Self-Dependent
--------------------------------
A. A fetus is not self-aware, it has no idea of it's surroundings and cannot feel pain, nor can it think. Sure, that's true, until about four months.

B. A fetus is not self-dependent it relies completely on it's mother for life. So that makes it un-human? I guess people in comas are not humans either? We should just dismember them maybe, since obviously they're not good enough to deserve the label of "human."

A fetus shares more characteristics with a tumor than a person. I'm guessing you've never seen an ultrasound before.

1. Has Human DNA

2. Is NOT alive What the fuck?

3. Is not self-aware
= #2
4. Is not self-dependent

5. Weakens it's host

6. Is constantly growing

Fun little responses in red.

Really, that was too easy.

[Katganistan]

Why should we be packed cheek to jowl, competing for resources you already know are not infinite? You still need resources to fuel the technology, which are finite. And technology has this wonderful way of breaking down -- or are there no blackouts, no bridge collapses, no railway accidents, no snowstorms to prevent the very simply process of transporting food from one place to another where you live?

There is the logic fail: we should have more people because we can, and damn the future consequences. Someone, I don't know if it was you, mentioned space travel earlier. On what? when governments are cutting their space exploration programs because of the financial collapse, we're going to put faith in the idea that it will be available someday?

That's like spending your last $100 on a bottle of wine because surely, you'll get a slice of pizza again someday.

Apparently my opponents lack basic reading comprehension skills.

Are you disagreeing with me, or disagreeing with Central Slavia? Your comment appears to be aimed at my post, yet I am not responding to you.

[Turanbirligi]

there are many strange people. they will kill their children because they want to eat, to drink and live easily instead of take responsibility

Bear in mind that they're also making sure you can eat, drink and live easily since you're not having to share the Earth's limited resources with yet another person. I'd call resource management a pretty responsible thing, to be honest...

if you want cut your balls, dont make children, but nobody can tell me how many children i will make. if i want 1, if i want 100

[The Ularn]

I do not care about future consequences and nobody should in the way you put it. In the long run we will be dead. We can do what we can for the species to expand and continue. However cutting the population is a truly decadent way to go back on progress, and die out pretty much soon

and the financial collapse's main reason is the capitalist system - throw that out and it will run

Put fifty people in one room and five-hundred people in another. Give them the same amount of food. Tell me which group will die first and then tell me if you've spotted the gargantuan abyss in your logic yet.

if the amount is a truckload , then the 50 are going to die sooner, assuming some accident rate.
Abyss averted

What? That in no way addresses my problem. You're not allowed to add your own conditions to avoid the question. Fifty people in one room: Five Hundred in another. Two big piles of food of equal size. No other conditions. Who dies first?

[Meldaria]

In order to be alive a creature must be:

A. Self-Aware

B. Self-Dependent
--------------------------------
A. A fetus is not self-aware, it has no idea of it's surroundings and cannot feel pain, nor can it think.

B. A fetus is not self-dependent it relies completely on it's mother for life.

A fetus shares more characteristics with a tumor than a person.

1. Has Human DNA

2. Is NOT alive

3. Is not self-aware
= #2
4. Is not self-dependent

5. Weakens it's host

6. Is constantly growing

So plants, bacteria, fungii, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea aren't alive then?

Actually Plants, Bacteria, Fungi, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea are all self-aware and self-dependent. Please do some research before you come into this thread with nonsense.

So a parasitic bacterium is not alive?

A parasite or parasitic bacterium is self-dependent, it depends on itself to eat. A fetus is fed by a tube. :/

[Katganistan]

Wait. A "person" who is pregnant, makes the decision to have (or not to have) an abortion. Tell me what is the responsible choice THEN, not back when they "made a decision".

I'm on the case. I'm blind rotten drunk, hungry and horny, but I have the scent of the problem here. It is causality. It's about blaming a person for all of the consequences of their decision ... while we make decisions every day which we do not know the consequences of.

We are butterflies, flapping madly in a cyclone machine. To hold each other responsible for the consequences of action is to add ignorance to chaos.

Than, the responsible decision is to care for their child. If they are unable to care for it, they can give it a differnt faimly or Government/privite programs.

Um, no.

If you are in favour of "adoption before abortion" then you must also be prepared to pay for orphanages. You must be prepared to pay for lifetime support of severely disabled children (and adults who grow from them).

Why? Because without abortion there would be many many more unwanted children. Who is going to care for those children?

If you advocate a LAW which makes birth of those children obligatory, you must also take responsibility for those children.

Leaving it to charity isn't good enough. If that's the law you would make, you must take responsibility for the orphans you make.

I'd say you also should be forced to pay for all the medical expenses incurred as a result of pregnancy, as well as paying out benefits to a woman's family members if she dies in childbirth, as well as insuring her a source of income if she is forced to miss work due to pregnancy/childbirth.

If I'm going to be forced to function as an incubator for The State, then why on Earth should the State expect me to foot the bill for the pregnancy they are forcing upon me?

If the State is going to require it, the State can damn well pay for the consequences.

"Oh, charity will pay for it" isn't good enough. If we legislate for a buttload of new orphans, we should legislate for their proper care too. And that is a huge commitment.

Yep.

Oh, and I want The State to ensure that I still have the same job opportunities even if my forced pregnancy makes me miss out on interviews, or conventions, or meetings, or other factors that might influence my odds of getting a promotion.

I want the State to ensure that my insurance rates don't go up as a result of any medical conditions I might end up with as a result of my pregnancy. If I end up with a life-long medical issue as a result of my pregnancy (like my mother has done), I expect to be permitted to collect life-long compensation for that injury.

If my partner leaves me because of the pregnancy and I'm not able to pay my full rent any more, I expect The State to pick up the bill.

If my fertility is harmed by the forced pregnancy and I'm not able to conceive later in life, when I actually WANT to be pregnant, then I expect The State to provide me with a settlement that reflects the loss of each child I was planning to have; I think a minimum of $15 million per child would be fair, considering that we're talking about 70 years or so of my would-be child's life.

If I want plastic surgery to repair damage from the pregnancy (like, for instance, an episiotomy or caesarian scar), I expect The State to foot the bill for that as well. If they're going to take away my body against my wishes, then they should expect to pay for me to regain whatever measure of my body I want.

This is actually a fun game!

I say it again. If you do not want unwanted pregnancy, do not fuck, fornicate, engage in carnal relationships or whatever shall i use to you to understand.
the problem happened with getting pregnant, not with the state not allowing you an abortion.
In the same way if you borrow money from your neighbor, the state does not have to repay you even if it does not allow you to kill him to anull the debt

Yes, all the time ignoring that abortions are, in fact, legal and allowed by that some government.
I wonder why that is, that abortions are legal in many places.

[The Ularn]

there are many strange people. they will kill their children because they want to eat, to drink and live easily instead of take responsibility

Bear in mind that they're also making sure you can eat, drink and live easily since you're not having to share the Earth's limited resources with yet another person. I'd call resource management a pretty responsible thing, to be honest...

if you want cut your balls, dont make children, but nobody can tell me how many children i will make. if i want 1, if i want 100

True, so don't tell me how many children I will make either. If I don't want any (or, in my case, don't want more than two) then I will use all avenues available to me to prevent that. I'd also hope my partner would as well but then again it is her body...

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Are you disagreeing with me, or disagreeing with Central Slavia? Your comment appears to be aimed at my post, yet I am not responding to you.

Well I'm not pro life. So there's your answer about whom I'm disagreeing with.

Jesus, that was the most awkward sentence ever.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Okay, second most awkward sentence ever.

[Katganistan]

you are big egoists. would you think so(if you you could think) if your mothers had thrown you in embrion period because you are not a potential life

Appeal to emotion, yet again.

[United Russian State]

What? That in no way addresses my problem. You're not allowed to add your own conditions to avoid the question. Fifty people in one room: Five Hundred in another. Two big piles of food of equal size. No other conditions. Who dies first?

If this room as no ways of producing food, the one with the higher number. However on earth you have many ways of producing more food. Not to mention TECH whcih helps to produce faster. One would think the people down the line will leave their "room" because their will not be recsources forever able to produced.

[Nobel Hobos]

there are many strange people. they will kill their children because they want to eat, to drink and live easily instead of take responsibility

We cannot eat, nor drink, nor even live ... without taking responsibility. All of our actions have consequences for others.

[Katganistan]

Are you disagreeing with me, or disagreeing with Central Slavia? Your comment appears to be aimed at my post, yet I am not responding to you.

Well I'm not pro life. So there's your answer about whom I'm disagreeing with.

Jesus, that was the most awkward sentence ever.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Okay, second most awkward sentence ever.

A reason one might have for being intentionally obtuse would be in order to claim that others have poor reading comprehension.

[Central Slavia]

I do not care about future consequences and nobody should in the way you put it. In the long run we will be dead. We can do what we can for the species to expand and continue. However cutting the population is a truly decadent way to go back on progress, and die out pretty much soon

and the financial collapse's main reason is the capitalist system - throw that out and it will run

Put fifty people in one room and five-hundred people in another. Give them the same amount of food. Tell me which group will die first and then tell me if you've spotted the gargantuan abyss in your logic yet.

if the amount is a truckload , then the 50 are going to die sooner, assuming some accident rate.
Abyss averted

What? That in no way addresses my problem. You're not allowed to add your own conditions to avoid the question. Fifty people in one room: Five Hundred in another. Two big piles of food of equal size. No other conditions. Who dies first?

Fine. Considering no o ther factors they die at the same time

[The Ularn]

What? That in no way addresses my problem. You're not allowed to add your own conditions to avoid the question. Fifty people in one room: Five Hundred in another. Two big piles of food of equal size. No other conditions. Who dies first?

If this room as no ways of producing food, the one with the higher number. However on earth you have many ways of producing more food. Not to mention TECH whcih helps to produce faster. One would think the people down the line will leave their "room" because their will not be recsources forever able to produced.

Maybe, but the fifty are going to have a better chance of surviving long enough to figure out how to leave than the five-hundred would.

[Central Slavia]

In order to be alive a creature must be:

A. Self-Aware

B. Self-Dependent
--------------------------------
A. A fetus is not self-aware, it has no idea of it's surroundings and cannot feel pain, nor can it think.

B. A fetus is not self-dependent it relies completely on it's mother for life.

A fetus shares more characteristics with a tumor than a person.

1. Has Human DNA

2. Is NOT alive

3. Is not self-aware
= #2
4. Is not self-dependent

5. Weakens it's host

6. Is constantly growing

So plants, bacteria, fungii, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea aren't alive then?

Actually Plants, Bacteria, Fungi, most classes of animals, protists, and archaea are all self-aware and self-dependent. Please do some research before you come into this thread with nonsense.

So a parasitic bacterium is not alive?

A parasite or parasitic bacterium is self-dependent, it depends on itself to eat. A fetus is fed by a tube.
:/

???
for example. what a tapeworm does is just like that- join to intestine and suck nutrients right out of bloodstream.
Still no answer