Abortion is Wrong?

[Nobel Hobos]

One more problem with this.
You see, if the woman according to your plans, decides to abort, the man can do nothing.

If she decides to keep the kid, he can do nothing again and has to pay alimony for 20 years or move to cayman isles.

Unfair or what?

FAIR.

Sixty pages, and you still don't get it.

[Kori to Mizu to Joki]

One more problem with this.
You see, if the woman according to your plans, decides to abort, the man can do nothing.

If she decides to keep the kid, he can do nothing again and has to pay alimony for 20 years or move to cayman isles.

Unfair or what?

Life is unfair.

Is it fair that women have to go through the pain on child labour?

[Nullarni]

However in all honesty it would be best to not treat it as double homicide.

Well, I'm sorry to tell you this happens. Its much more impressive for a DA to get someone imprisoned for a double homicide. My point is that everyone has equal protection in the law, right?

[Dempublicents1]

One more problem with this.
You see, if the woman according to your plans, decides to abort, the man can do nothing.

If she decides to keep the kid, he can do nothing again and has to pay alimony for 20 years or move to cayman isles.

Unfair or what?

(a) Alimony has nothing to do with supporting a child. I'll assume you just mixed it up and actually meant to refer to child support, which is paid to a custodial parent by a non-custodial parent until the child reaches the age of majority. Both parents are equally responsible for the care of their born children. If you don't think that should be so, you can make that argument, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the legality of abortion.

(b) Biology is unfair. Women can get pregnant and must then either terminate the pregnancy or take all risks, pain, etc. associated with carrying to term. Men never have to worry about that. Because of this, women can terminate a pregnancy. Men cannot. You aren't going to accomplish much by whining about biological inequities.

[Nobel Hobos]

Both of you missed my point. If you can charge someone with murder for unintentionally killing a fetus you have to charge some with murder for intentionally doing it. I'm sorry if you don't agree but do you not see the logic?

Those laws were explicitly made so that people could use that argument. In other words, the conclusion is the same as the premise. There is no actual logic to see.

Yes, and it's easy to see how that would happen. It's hard to oppose motherhood, if the "mother" is a murder victim. Emotive stuff.

[Bottle]

Both of you missed my point. If you can charge someone with murder for unintentionally killing a fetus you have to charge some with murder for intentionally doing it. I'm sorry if you don't agree but do you not see the logic?

Do you understand that the law you're talking about were specifically and intentionally pushed through by anti-choice groups, for exactly the purpose you're describing?

They pushed to get those "double homicide" laws passed, so that they could then argue against women having the right to choose.

Sad to see so many people fall for their tactics.

[Central Slavia]

One more problem with this.
You see, if the woman according to your plans, decides to abort, the man can do nothing.

If she decides to keep the kid, he can do nothing again and has to pay alimony for 20 years or move to cayman isles.

Unfair or what?

(a) Alimony has nothing to do with supporting a child. I'll assume you just mixed it up and actually meant to refer to child support, which is paid to a custodial parent by a non-custodial parent until the child reaches the age of majority. Both parents are equally responsible for the care of their born children. If you don't think that should be so, you can make that argument, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the legality of abortion.

(b) Biology is unfair. Women can get pregnant and must then either terminate the pregnancy or take all risks, pain, etc. associated with carrying to term. Men never have to worry about that. Because of this, women can terminate a pregnancy. Men cannot. You aren't going to accomplish much by whining about biological inequities.

a) that is what child support is called in my language - "alimenty"
so i mixed it up.Sorry of that.

b) Interesting - first you spend hours of arguing that consent to sex does not equal consent to having children and whatever is resulting from it.
Now you assume that for the father it should be that way

[Bottle]

b) Interesting - first you spend hours of arguing that consent to sex does not equal consent to having children and whatever is resulting from it.
Now you assume that for the father it should be that way

No, she simply assumes that men and women should follow the same rule, which is that both men and women have the right to decide how THEIR OWN BODY will participate in reproduction. Neither men nor women have the right to choose how somebody else's body participates in reproduction.

For men, this means that your choice extends up to and including the moment you ejaculate. After that point, your body is no longer involved in reproduction, so there's no more choices for you to make. For women, the body's participation in reproduction continues up to and including childbirth, so a woman continues to have to make reproductive choices for as long as pregnancy/childbirth continue.

[Nullarni]

Those laws were explicitly made so that people could use that argument. In other words, the conclusion is the same as the premise. There is no actual logic to see.

Heh heh, yes its all a vast pro-life conspiracy. And I suppose we faked the moon landing just to make the Russians feel bad.

[Bottle]

Those laws were explicitly made so that people could use that argument. In other words, the conclusion is the same as the premise. There is no actual logic to see.

Heh heh, yes its all a vast pro-life conspiracy. And I suppose we faked the moon landing just to make the Russians feel bad.

I'm starting to wonder if there's a single anti-choice poster in this thread who ISN'T just trolling.

[Gaypeoples]

I don't see the difference between sperm, egg and embryo. 12-13 weeks after "sperm-egg realationship" it's life because of nervous system. every sperm could be life and every egg could be life. So if you say abortion = murder, so every ejaculation will be murder because you kill millions of potential babies and every menstuation is a murder too! There are also so much natural abortions. I know so many women, that lost their "babys" by "nature".
I like my life, because i know it, but if my mother had chosen an abortion, it would be ok, because I don't feel anything as a "0-12 weeks embryo" and don't know how life might be.
There is only a problem after 12-13 weeks. Then it's life! Then it's a murder, because the embryo can feel.
I hope you understand, because i don't speak english very often.

[Dempublicents1]

a) that is what child support is called in my language - "alimenty"
so i mixed it up.Sorry of that.

Ah. What language is that, out of curiosity?

b) Interesting - first you spend hours of arguing that consent to sex does not equal consent to having children and whatever is resulting from it.
Now you assume that for the father it should be that way

No, for the father it is that way, because his participation ends with having sex. His last chance to say, "I don't want my body used in making a baby" is when he decides whether or not to participate in an action that might result in his sperm fertilizing an egg. A woman's body participates for much longer, giving her a longer period of time in which to decide not to carry it all the way through.

Some people would argue that this biological inequity should translate into a legal inequity - that a man should thus have no rights and responsibilities regarding his born children. (Well, they usually just argue that he should have no responsibilities, but I won't accept that argument without a concurrent loss of parental rights). Personally, I disagree with the idea that a man should have no parental rights and responsibilities, but feel free to make that argument if you would like.

[Central Slavia]

a) that is what child support is called in my language - "alimenty"
so i mixed it up.Sorry of that.

Ah. What language is that, out of curiosity?

b) Interesting - first you spend hours of arguing that consent to sex does not equal consent to having children and whatever is resulting from it.
Now you assume that for the father it should be that way

No, for the father it is that way, because his participation ends with having sex. His last chance to say, "I don't want my body used in making a baby" is when he decides whether or not to participate in an action that might result in his sperm fertilizing an egg. A woman's body participates for much longer, giving her a longer period of time in which to decide not to carry it all the way through.

Some people would argue that this biological inequity should translate into a legal inequity - that a man should thus have no rights and responsibilities regarding his born children. (Well, they usually just argue that he should have no responsibilities, but I won't accept that argument without a concurrent loss of parental rights). Personally, I disagree with the idea that a man should have no parental rights and responsibilities, but feel free to make that argument if you would like.

a) Slovak, (in czech it is the same , just like most stufff [same or similar])

b) Then the least that should happen would be the ability to decline participation - (i do not see their logic either and must agree with you on this issue - if someone declines parenthood i doubt he is going to care about parental rights anyway)

[Kma2]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable. The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

Life begins at conception, and not other time. Abortion ends life.

[Gaypeoples]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable. The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

Life begins at conception, and not other time. Abortion ends life.

life begins, when there is a nervous system.

[Dempublicents1]

b) Then the least that should happen would be the ability to decline participation - (i do not see their logic either and must agree with you on this issue - if someone declines parenthood i doubt he is going to care about parental rights anyway)

If a man can unilaterally decline parenthood for an actual born child, a woman should have that same choice. There are a couple of ways this can be legally equitable:

1) The current situation. Both men and women have equal parental rights and are equally responsible for their children. In order to give up legal parenthood, someone else must be willing to take on that role (ie. adoption by a step-parent or adoption by a completely new set of parents - which must be agreed to by both biological parents).
2) Unilateral denial of parenthood. This, in turn, could be done two ways:
(a) Opt-in. No one is legally a parent, despite being biological parents, until they officially sign up for it.
(b) Opt-out. Biological parents are legally parents unless they officially opt out. This option would be equally available to mothers and fathers.

Personally, I think either case of #2 would likely be worse for children than the current situation, although there is a case to be made that people forced to be parents are likely to be shitty parents, and that it might be best to keep them out of the child's life altogether.

[Mal Lobo]

I wouldnt debate this here if you were going to give the Serpent and Rainbow treatment.

I will say however(like many things that dumbed down to an AMAZING degree on this board) its a very complex issue, not black and white. Many people are torn where their loyalties should lie.

I am very much anti-abortion in just about all cases--fuck a list "Just about all cases" is the only answer Im giving.
However I am also very much in favor of choice, choice is freedom, it is free-will, it IS the woman's body...but then its the babies body too.
So I am a personally I very reluctant supporter of choice, and i feel sick when i say it. But I do say it, and as much as it pains me--and it does pain me--I mean it.
I dont like whack job bully-boy protesters outside clinics holding pictures of dead babies and acting like abusing women in trouble makes them rightgeous, I dont like filthy pig faced sluts who get 3 or 4 abortions because that cant figure out those cocks they keep hoping on are the cause of the problem. Yes I have known both kinds of people.

I dont like the issue, it isnt a win/lose issue. Its a lose lose issue. No matter what choices are shitty on this one and...bleh.

Couldn't of said it better myself.

Abortion isn't one of those things that should be debated by politicians and clergy. It is a medical decision between a woman and her doctor. Pregnancy... as has been pointed out by any mother... is really hard. It is an emotionally and physically demanding process that no woman should not engage in lightly and forcing someone to undergo that kind of experience is cruel at best. What kind of life would a child have with a mother who didn't want that child to begin with? That's cruel to the child as well.

Is there a problem with that philosophy? Of course. There are the dumb bitches who use abortion as birth control when it should be a wake up call, the potential life that could go on to cure cancer, the father who wants a child the mother does not, etc. But as has been pointed out, this isn't a black and white issue. Each woman has a unique situation that a universal stance on the issue would discriminate against in one way or another.

"Is abortion wrong?" Such a complex question does not have a simple answer.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable. The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

Life begins at conception, and not other time. Abortion ends life.

The question is "Do you believe it's wrong?".

[Gaypeoples]

I also think abortion is good, because the dead hurts and everybody has to die, so the dead doesnt hurt for an embryo without nervous system. so it's ONLY immoral to be against abortion.

[Kma2]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable. The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

Life begins at conception, and not other time. Abortion ends life.

The question is "Do you believe it's wrong?".

*I* believe it is wrong. *I* don't believe it should be legislated. Not at the federal level anyways. To me, this is a moral issue that is better left up to moral institutions (churches, synagogues, schools, etc)

[Dempublicents1]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable. The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

Life begins at conception, and not other time. Abortion ends life.

The question is "Do you believe it's wrong?".

That is an important question, but it really only addresses what you would do. I generally think abortion is wrong, so I can't see myself ever having an abortion, even in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. Of course, in the end, it's really only a question someone can fully answer when they find themselves in that situation. Plenty of people have thought they were morally opposed until they were actually pregnant, and then found that it was the best decision they could make.

In many cases, I think they more important question is "Do you think it should be legal?" because that addresses how you will act towards other people. Despite my own personal objections to abortion, I absolutely do think it should be legal. And I will funnel my efforts at preventing abortions into advocating for better sex education, easier access to contraceptives, and more support for those who do decide to carry to term even when it is financially difficult.

[Ecstasy and Wrath]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable. The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

Life begins at conception, and not other time. Abortion ends life.

The question is "Do you believe it's wrong?".

*I* believe it is wrong. *I* don't believe it should be legislated. Not at the federal level anyways. To me, this is a moral issue that is better left up to moral institutions (churches, synagogues, schools, etc)

Will you marry me?

[Gauntleted Fist]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable. The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

Life begins at conception, and not other time. Abortion ends life.

The question is "Do you believe it's wrong?".

That is an important question, but it really only addresses what you would do. I generally think abortion is wrong, so I can't see myself ever having an abortion, even in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. Of course, in the end, it's really only a question someone can fully answer when they find themselves in that situation. Plenty of people have thought they were morally opposed until they were actually pregnant, and then found that it was the best decision they could make.

In many cases, I think they more important question is "Do you think it should be legal?" because that addresses how you will act towards other people. Despite my own personal objections to abortion, I absolutely do think it should be illegal. And I will funnel my efforts at preventing abortions into advocating for better sex education, easier access to contraceptives, and more support for those who do decide to carry to term even when it is financially difficult.

Despite your personal objections to abortion you still believe it should be illegal?

You lose me around that point.

[The Tofu Islands]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period. That fact is incontestable.

That depends on what you mean by “a human being”. If you’re referring to just a collection of cells that are human and alive, then apart from probably being able to construct ridiculous examples, it isn’t necessarily sentient.

The question is whether it is murder, justifiable homicide, manslaughter or something else.

I’d go for “something else”.

Life begins at conception, and not other time.

Even if we accept that, it doesn’t change that that life is not sentient nor able to survive independently.

Abortion ends life.

So?

Pulling up a weed ends life. Chopping down a tree ends life. Stepping on an ant ends life. We have even turned the ending of life into a massive industry (the meat industry, specifically).

EDIT: spelling fix.

[Nobel Hobos]

Abortion ends the life of a human being. Period.

Periods are murder !±