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[Imperializt Russia]

The only heavy lifting involved in artillery and tanks are the job of loader, outside of maintenance.
Artillery guns have multiple loaders and both gun crews and tank crews have roles not loader.

There being ten hours of maintenance to one hour of driving. With tanks, at least. Not to mention super happy fun times like track dislocation in the field in half a meter of mud, camo netting, whenever something gets stuck... all of which need strength. It's not the cushy sitting job people make it out to be.

Besides that, tankers get basic infantry training, too.

That's why crews are four-strong and why army mechanics and recovery crews are a thing.

[Ayreonia]

There being ten hours of maintenance to one hour of driving. With tanks, at least. Not to mention super happy fun times like track dislocation in the field in half a meter of mud, camo netting, whenever something gets stuck... all of which need strength. It's not the cushy sitting job people make it out to be.

Besides that, tankers get basic infantry training, too.

But no one likes Tankers.

It's okay, tankers don't like you.

[Imperial City-States]

There being ten hours of maintenance to one hour of driving. With tanks, at least. Not to mention super happy fun times like track dislocation in the field in half a meter of mud, camo netting, whenever something gets stuck... all of which need strength. It's not the cushy sitting job people make it out to be.

Besides that, tankers get basic infantry training, too.

That's why crews are four-strong and why army mechanics and recovery crews are a thing.

Finding a Recovery crew or Mechanics is the equivalent of finding the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow. 99% of the time you've got to do the shit yourself.

[Imperial City-States]

But no one likes Tankers.

It's okay, tankers don't like you.

Tanker's like us better than Cav Scouts.

[Uxupox]

It's okay, tankers don't like you.

Tanker's like us better than Cav Scouts.

I've always wondered who I hate more. The snotty tankers with their shitty hats and their cowboy boots or the Cavs who can't seem to manage their night vision equipment.

[Imperial City-States]

Tanker's like us better than Cav Scouts.

I've always wondered who I hate more. The snotty tankers with their shitty hats and their cowboy boots or the Cavs who can't seem to manage their night vision equipment.

I hate. CAV Scouts with every fiber of my being.
Fisters are superior.

[Ayreonia]

There being ten hours of maintenance to one hour of driving. With tanks, at least. Not to mention super happy fun times like track dislocation in the field in half a meter of mud, camo netting, whenever something gets stuck... all of which need strength. It's not the cushy sitting job people make it out to be.

Besides that, tankers get basic infantry training, too.

That's why crews are four-strong and why army mechanics and recovery crews are a thing.

Good luck finding army mechanics and recovery crews... well, ever. Besides, what do you think they'll tell you if you say you need to have a track fixed?

I paraphrase: "Do it yourself, you lazy piece of shit!"

As for crews of four, what do you think will happen if GI Jane declares she won't touch the track, and that Joe, Jeff and Androxyus the Great should fix it, because she isn't strong enough? She won't be a tanker for long.

[Uxupox]

I've always wondered who I hate more. The snotty tankers with their shitty hats and their cowboy boots or the Cavs who can't seem to manage their night vision equipment.

I hate. CAV Scouts with every fiber of my being.
Fisters are superior.

I thought the FO's were being phased out. Well at least in my unit they are anyway.

[Imperial City-States]

I hate. CAV Scouts with every fiber of my being.
Fisters are superior.

I thought the FO's were being phased out. Well at least in my unit they are anyway.

Haven't ever heard of that before. What unit are you with? Might be able to provide an explanation.

[Uxupox]

I thought the FO's were being phased out. Well at least in my unit they are anyway.

Haven't ever heard of that before. What unit are you with? Might be able to provide an explanation.

Sent you a telegram.

[Imperial City-States]

That's why crews are four-strong and why army mechanics and recovery crews are a thing.

Good luck finding army mechanics and recovery crews... well, ever. Besides, what do you think they'll tell you if you say you need to have a track fixed?

I paraphrase: "Do it yourself, you lazy piece of shit!"

As for crews of four, what do you think will happen if GI Jane declares she won't touch the track, and that Joe, Jeff and Androxyus the Great should fix it, because she isn't strong enough? She won't be a tanker for long.

Until I had to watch a Bradley crew change track, I was a little jealous at the lack of Rucking. After seeing that shit. Glad I'm Dismounted.

[Ayreonia]

Good luck finding army mechanics and recovery crews... well, ever. Besides, what do you think they'll tell you if you say you need to have a track fixed?

I paraphrase: "Do it yourself, you lazy piece of shit!"

As for crews of four, what do you think will happen if GI Jane declares she won't touch the track, and that Joe, Jeff and Androxyus the Great should fix it, because she isn't strong enough? She won't be a tanker for long.

Until I had to watch a Bradley crew change track, I was a little jealous at the lack of Rucking. After seeing that shit. Glad I'm Dismounted.

I was Finnish Army, CV90 crewman, and all I'm going to say is Fuck. Changing. Tracks.

But we're going off topic.

[Betha]

Simple. If we all have equal rights, then it is only necessary that we all should be equally serving our country in my opinion. The draft is a horrible thing that either kills you or completely destroys your life upon your return, yet this forced military service is only for males. Why shouldn't women have to sign up for the draft? What are your thoughts on this, NSG?

I'm not in anyway justifying the men-only draft, but I think the logic our government follows is that we can't send everyone to war; somebody has to take care of the kids and old people yadda yadda. The easiest way to ensure that this happens is to split it up by men and women.

[Imperial City-States]

On Topic:

Woman are not required to sign up for the draft due to when it was written, woman had less rights than men, and were expected to stay home.

I do however believe Woman *should* be requires to sign up for the draft, but I do not think they should be allowed in Combat MOS's. A very elite few woman can pull their weight yes, however the majority can not. Should the be allowed too join them? Perhaps. Should the standard be degraded as a result like it has been In the past? Absolutely fucking not.

The argument is often made "can she drag a 200 pound man out of a burning tank" or something to that effect.

Think about this, I weigh 210 pounds butt naked. Add on my Combat Load and I'm in the 255-275 ball park. Do you know any female who can drag my ass 100 yards in a timely manner?

I won't deny for a second that it's difficult for me to do, but I can do it and that's for a male, in his physical prime and youth. However all of your people who scream equality don't look at practicality.

[Imperializt Russia]

That's why crews are four-strong and why army mechanics and recovery crews are a thing.

Finding a Recovery crew or Mechanics is the equivalent of finding the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow. 99% of the time you've got to do the shit yourself.

If the availability of recovery crew matters, you're probably dead anyway.

[Galloism]

Imagine if women - and only women - had to register with the federal government and continually update their addresses promptly upon each move or be cut off from educational financial aid, good jobs, and even driver's licenses, for the purposes of... oh, let's say the possible eventuality that teachers are needed they can be drafted as teachers. It hasn't happened in a while, but ONLY women are required to do this.

Would that give rise to an equal protection claim?

It gives rise to a claim certainly, but it will likely not be supported.

I won't claim to understand "equal protection" but I think Ashmoria is right. Since the harm men are (let's face it, only at risk of)

Once again, this is real harm still enforced today against men who fail to register. Men who fail to register still are denied tens of thousands of dollars in college aid, and in some states can't get driver's licenses, and (in all states) cannot become a citizen without registering with the selective service (provided they are of the appropriate age).

These are not harms they are "only at risk of". These are visited. Now.

facing will not be alleviated by requiring women to register, then it would not be covered by equal protection. Making more people face more risks is absolutely not "protection", even if "equal".
One would probably have more luck launching a claim of equal protection by having the draft abolished completely.

That is one of the remedies the court could provide.

No it doesn't, but it DOES give equal protection of the laws, which is currently lacking.

Picture if the selective service act only applied to african-americans. Still immune from an equal-protection claim?

Obviously not, because that is a division of men that makes no sense. There are arguments for a gender division. Some of them weak, some of them poor. But they exist and can be justified.

I want to hear these reasons that still apply in a modern technologically advanced military.

(I could see how they applied in 1918 when upper body strength was a huge part of much of the military, now not so much)

Also, given the majority of our fighting is in the middle east, how does a melanin advantage (useful for warmer climates) among african-americans not work as a reason?

Explain your answer.

Gender divisions are not equivalent to racial or other divisions that would divide within one gender for some reason.

Are you sure? Because you treat them similarly in your arguments.

[Galloism]

Simple. If we all have equal rights, then it is only necessary that we all should be equally serving our country in my opinion. The draft is a horrible thing that either kills you or completely destroys your life upon your return, yet this forced military service is only for males. Why shouldn't women have to sign up for the draft? What are your thoughts on this, NSG?

I'm not in anyway justifying the men-only draft, but I think the logic our government follows is that we can't send everyone to war; somebody has to take care of the kids and old people yadda yadda. The easiest way to ensure that this happens is to split it up by men and women.

That doesn't even make sense.

Women are no better at taking care of kids and old people than men are.

[Confederate Republic of the Conga]

In the way that potentially saves them from bleeding out on a battlefield.

Hell, we bleed out every 28 days. You guys couldn't handle it.

Shots fired

[Ayreonia]

Finding a Recovery crew or Mechanics is the equivalent of finding the pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow. 99% of the time you've got to do the shit yourself.

If the availability of recovery crew matters, you're probably dead anyway.

Ehh... look, you're ignorant on this subject, so this argument is useless.

[Imperializt Russia]

If the availability of recovery crew matters, you're probably dead anyway.

Ehh... look, you're ignorant on this subject, so this argument is useless.

Ignorant on what basis?

[Aahmerica]

When I was in, I seen a lot of women fail their pft. The standards are already lower for them.

As for infantry billets, if they can handle the same requirements the men can, without reducing and standards, then fine, women can fight.

Although I will point out an article that showed that mixed squads(male and female) performed worse than all male teams.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /71971416/

[Imperializt Russia]

When I was in, I seen a lot of women fail their pft. The standards are already lower for them.

As for infantry billets, if they can handle the same requirements the men can, without reducing and standards, then fine, women can fight.

Although I will point out an article that showed that mixed squads(male and female) performed worse than all male teams.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /71971416/

I have seen that article previously. I am not convinced of the impartiality of the study.

[Aahmerica]

When I was in, I seen a lot of women fail their pft. The standards are already lower for them.

As for infantry billets, if they can handle the same requirements the men can, without reducing and standards, then fine, women can fight.

Although I will point out an article that showed that mixed squads(male and female) performed worse than all male teams.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /71971416/

I have seen that article previously. I am not convinced of the impartiality of the study.

Take it as you will I guess. I can see one issue with the test, the all male units are made up of marines who are 03xx, thats their day job, so if course they were going to have a leg up.
The other groups are men 03xx, and women who are POGs. Little infantry skills, though the team leaders were experienced.
I guess the proof in the pudding is to see how much worse than their male counterparts performed.

My personal opinion is that women have no place on the frontline.
That doesn't mean they cannot hold a combat bullet.
I do support women as scout snipers, and recon.

[Imperializt Russia]

I have seen that article previously. I am not convinced of the impartiality of the study.

Take it as you will I guess. I can see one issue with the test, the all male units are made up of marines who are 03xx, thats their day job, so if course they were going to have a leg up.
The other groups are men 03xx, and women who are POGs. Little infantry skills, though the team leaders were experienced.
I guess the proof in the pudding is to see how much worse than their male counterparts performed.

My personal opinion is that women have no place on the frontline.

My personal opinion is that the average woman is not as strong or physically fit as the average man. This is, not really surprising. I can't even call that an opinion, that's just a thing.
My actual opinion is that this difference does not strictly matter.

For example if I ever get around to joining the forces, there will certainly be women in the units I intend on joining (combat support) who are both stronger and fitter than I am, a 22 year old male, given that I am much weaker than the average man.

[Ayreonia]

Ehh... look, you're ignorant on this subject, so this argument is useless.

Ignorant on what basis?

On the basis that it's obvious you've never been in an armored fighting vehicle and have no firsthand experience of serving in one.