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Left-Wing Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What kind of Leftist are you?

Centrist/Moderate/Third wayer (Centrists usually reside within Leftist parties, so I thought I'd include them).
279
13%
Social Liberal
259
12%
Social Democrat
338
16%
Green Progressive
188
9%
Democratic Socialist
433
20%
Marxist Communist
246
12%
Anarchist Communist
202
10%
Other (please state)
176
8%
 
Total votes : 2121

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Arkolon
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Ex-Nation

Postby Arkolon » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:56 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Arkolon wrote:What's wrong with scientific socialism and a transition state? At least to me, those two things are the most sensical in all of communist theory.

Scientific socialism is taking political theory and philosophy and forcing it into a mathematical, scientific box it was never meant for. Not to mention the whole process draws false conclusions.

A transition state, most notably, never transitions. Bakunin correctly predicted that an attempt at transition from capitalism to socialism through a worker's state would lead to the State becoming a separate empowered class, just like in every other capitalist nation, and simply devolve into its own self-serving system.

Scientific socialism, as opposed to utopian socialism, stresses that socialism, class struggle, and class consciousness do not arise out of thin air, but come from the (what they saw to be) social contradictions of a new mode of production that came out of the industrial revolution. Utopian socialists see socialism as a nifty thing we can do any time; scientific socialists see it as either historically necessary or inevitable once the necessary conditions permit it. I also don't see how the conclusions scientific socialism can draw can be false when the purpose of having socialism be empirically based is to make its theory and conclusions falsifiable and flexible.

How does a country transform directly into the communist era within a globalised, capitalist economy without a transition state? How could such a radical shift in the very fabric of society be possible just through political motivation? A transition state facilitates the process and solves a hole utopian socialism has: by removing the transition state, the problem doesn't disappear, since the problem it meant to fix would remain gaping.
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Kilobugya
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kilobugya » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:22 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Scientific socialism is taking political theory and philosophy and forcing it into a mathematical, scientific box it was never meant for.


The universe runs on maths. Mathematical structures are everywhere. Refusing to see the omnipresent mathematical structures of politics, economics and philosophy is being sure to operate in a vacuum, disconnected from reality. Refusing to use a scientific approach to them is being sure to be unable to tell apart truth from falsehood. Those are the greatest flaws of all pre-scientific philosophy, and Marx (mostly successful) attempt to put back science and maths into them is one of his greatest achievement.
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Kubra
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kubra » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:27 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:To be fair, the schism more correctly applies to what happened after the existing ideologies of Marx's scientific socialism and anarchism joined together for the First International. It wouldn't be correct to call it a split from Marxism. Modern libertarian socialist theory predates Marxist theory, and libertarian socialism as a theoretical and practiced system predates essentially every other ideology or system.

I'm fully aware. I just meant the split in the First Internationale. They all got together, and then were like "nah this definitely ain't gonna work."

Believe me, I wouldn't hold to an ideology professing scientific socialism and a transition state. As idealistic as anarchism may be, I think Marxism is irreparably flawed.
any ideological framework can be made to fit a particular form of praxis, like shit Marx himself was an all-talk social democrat, ain't nobody emulating his politics these days except people who don't even like Marx
these days all the anarchists that call themselves marxists are into communisation

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Arkolon wrote:What's wrong with scientific socialism and a transition state? At least to me, those two things are the most sensical in all of communist theory.

Scientific socialism is taking political theory and philosophy and forcing it into a mathematical, scientific box it was never meant for. Not to mention the whole process draws false conclusions.

A transition state, most notably, never transitions. Bakunin correctly predicted that an attempt at transition from capitalism to socialism through a worker's state would lead to the State becoming a separate empowered class, just like in every other capitalist nation, and simply devolve into its own self-serving system.
scientific was a term used very loosely in Marx's time. Saying something was "scientific" just meant "we've reached conclusions that sound reasonable, I feel like I did some thinking to get here, SCIENCE." Motherfuckers thought Hegel was science.
It didn't help that Engels and Lenin wrote way too much about scientific philosophy, a topic Marx correctly stayed the fuck away from in his older years.
Last edited by Kubra on Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Agritum
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Postby Agritum » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:18 pm

Let's get this running again, shall we? Firstly, for those who like provocateur-ism, here's a nice jewel.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... other.html

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Asherahan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Asherahan » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:54 am

Agritum wrote:Let's get this running again, shall we? Firstly, for those who like provocateur-ism, here's a nice jewel.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... other.html

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Ficiscia
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Postby Ficiscia » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:10 am

Kilobugya wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Scientific socialism is taking political theory and philosophy and forcing it into a mathematical, scientific box it was never meant for.


The universe runs on maths. Mathematical structures are everywhere. Refusing to see the omnipresent mathematical structures of politics, economics and philosophy is being sure to operate in a vacuum, disconnected from reality. Refusing to use a scientific approach to them is being sure to be unable to tell apart truth from falsehood. Those are the greatest flaws of all pre-scientific philosophy, and Marx (mostly successful) attempt to put back science and maths into them is one of his greatest achievement.


Not meant as an attack, but as a genuine question because I am not familiar enough with non-political philosophy (and even there haven't had more than an introduction) to know this: Where is maths being used in philosophy? In political science, I know just too well, I had my exam on it just today, but I can't really see it in philosophy...
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:45 am

Ficiscia wrote:
Kilobugya wrote:
The universe runs on maths. Mathematical structures are everywhere. Refusing to see the omnipresent mathematical structures of politics, economics and philosophy is being sure to operate in a vacuum, disconnected from reality. Refusing to use a scientific approach to them is being sure to be unable to tell apart truth from falsehood. Those are the greatest flaws of all pre-scientific philosophy, and Marx (mostly successful) attempt to put back science and maths into them is one of his greatest achievement.


Not meant as an attack, but as a genuine question because I am not familiar enough with non-political philosophy (and even there haven't had more than an introduction) to know this: Where is maths being used in philosophy? In political science, I know just too well, I had my exam on it just today, but I can't really see it in philosophy...

Logic, mostly.
"Revisionism is nothing else than a theoretic generalisation made from the angle of the isolated capitalist. Where does this viewpoint belong theoretically if not in vulgar bourgeois economics?"
Rosa Luxemburg

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Kilobugya
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Founded: Apr 05, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kilobugya » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:11 am

Ficiscia wrote:Not meant as an attack, but as a genuine question because I am not familiar enough with non-political philosophy (and even there haven't had more than an introduction) to know this: Where is maths being used in philosophy? In political science, I know just too well, I had my exam on it just today, but I can't really see it in philosophy...


In many ways : logic has a strong link with philosophy, but mathematical structures can also be found in many other places : probability theory (when philosophy speaks about the nature of knowledge, doubt vs certainty, ...), concepts such as "fuzzy clusters in phase space" and Bayesian networks have a strong link with the way human languages work, game theory and utility theory has lots of impacts when philosophy deals with ethics, recursion, computation and "strange loops" when philosophy deals with consciousness, ...
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Jochistan
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Postby Jochistan » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:30 pm

Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?

Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:43 pm

Jochistan wrote:Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?
Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?

Are we supposed to boycott most of the global economy? Because that'd be ridiculous.
And what would it achieve? It'd just punish those making the things we want, whilst not harming those we were never going to buy from anyway. Even if enough participated to have a significant effect, it'd just put people out of the job and maybe cause economic stagnation or recession. That's not what we want - except maybe those twisted enough to want economic turmoil, hoping that it will radicalise people and motivate them to join the far left.
Last edited by Conscentia on Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Olivaero
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Postby Olivaero » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:48 pm

Jochistan wrote:Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?

Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?

I have trouble buying things I know are made in sweat shops I feel particularly conflicted about my electronic equipment purchases although I make a point to not buy from apple I don't feel comfortable in my abbility to actually avoid using the proceeds of sweatshop labour on the other hand I'm very confident that boycotts don't actually work so even if I stopped buying things unless I was certain I knew they were sourced from workers paying minimum wage it wouldn't matter.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:19 pm

Olivaero wrote:
Jochistan wrote:Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?

Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?

I have trouble buying things I know are made in sweat shops I feel particularly conflicted about my electronic equipment purchases although I make a point to not buy from apple I don't feel comfortable in my abbility to actually avoid using the proceeds of sweatshop labour on the other hand I'm very confident that boycotts don't actually work so even if I stopped buying things unless I was certain I knew they were sourced from workers paying minimum wage it wouldn't matter.

Is punctuation a bourgeois concept to boycott, too?
"Revisionism is nothing else than a theoretic generalisation made from the angle of the isolated capitalist. Where does this viewpoint belong theoretically if not in vulgar bourgeois economics?"
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San Marxos
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Postby San Marxos » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:19 pm

Olivaero wrote:
Jochistan wrote:Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?

Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?

I have trouble buying things I know are made in sweat shops I feel particularly conflicted about my electronic equipment purchases although I make a point to not buy from apple I don't feel comfortable in my abbility to actually avoid using the proceeds of sweatshop labour on the other hand I'm very confident that boycotts don't actually work so even if I stopped buying things unless I was certain I knew they were sourced from workers paying minimum wage it wouldn't matter.

Apple has been making advances in human rights. They make most of their stuff in America and are breaking ties with FOXCONN. Microsoft is worse and so is Alienware.

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Liberty and Linguistics
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Postby Liberty and Linguistics » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:31 pm

Arkolon wrote:
Olivaero wrote:I have trouble buying things I know are made in sweat shops I feel particularly conflicted about my electronic equipment purchases although I make a point to not buy from apple I don't feel comfortable in my abbility to actually avoid using the proceeds of sweatshop labour on the other hand I'm very confident that boycotts don't actually work so even if I stopped buying things unless I was certain I knew they were sourced from workers paying minimum wage it wouldn't matter.

Is punctuation a bourgeois concept to boycott, too?


Some NSGers do say that, yes.
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Jochistan
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Postby Jochistan » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:36 pm

Olivaero wrote:
Jochistan wrote:Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?

Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?

I have trouble buying things I know are made in sweat shops I feel particularly conflicted about my electronic equipment purchases although I make a point to not buy from apple I don't feel comfortable in my abbility to actually avoid using the proceeds of sweatshop labour on the other hand I'm very confident that boycotts don't actually work so even if I stopped buying things unless I was certain I knew they were sourced from workers paying minimum wage it wouldn't matter.

But whats more, really almost everything you use and the entertainment you enjoy can be attributed to the innovations brought on by a capitalist society.

It's almost like saying you despise technology and want it's utter overthrow yet live in a house with electricity and running water.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:47 pm

Jochistan wrote:Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?

Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?

This is such an extremely overdone and baseless argument I'm embarrassed that you've used it. There's almost no way to escape capital and the State in a statist, capitalist society. The very idea of the proletariat is based on our position in capitalism.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:50 pm

Jochistan wrote:But whats more, really almost everything you use and the entertainment you enjoy can be attributed to the innovations brought on by a capitalist society.

Yes, because non-capitalists can't invent things. It's not like vaccines are almost never developed in the private sector anymore, for example. It's not like some of the smartest men who've ever lived (Einstein, Hawking) were/are socialists. Of course not. Greed is the only motivator a man has ever known, and I know this, because I don't do anything unless I'm gonna get rich from it.
Jochistan wrote:It's almost like saying you despise technology and want it's utter overthrow yet live in a house with electricity and running water.

No, it's not like that at all.
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Bogdanov Vishniac
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Founded: May 01, 2015
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Postby Bogdanov Vishniac » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:56 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Jochistan wrote:But whats more, really almost everything you use and the entertainment you enjoy can be attributed to the innovations brought on by a capitalist society.

Yes, because non-capitalists can't invent things. It's not like vaccines are almost never developed in the private sector anymore, for example. It's not like some of the smartest men who've ever lived (Einstein, Hawking) were/are socialists. Of course not. Greed is the only motivator a man has ever known, and I know this, because I don't do anything unless I'm gonna get rich from it.


This sort of thing is particularly ironic when you consider that the modern scientific community is probably the largest and most complex example of a community structured around cooperative enterprise, altruism and conscious de-coupling from the capitalist mode of thought on the planet.
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Zoice
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Founded: Oct 30, 2015
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Postby Zoice » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:58 pm

Jochistan wrote:
Olivaero wrote:I have trouble buying things I know are made in sweat shops I feel particularly conflicted about my electronic equipment purchases although I make a point to not buy from apple I don't feel comfortable in my abbility to actually avoid using the proceeds of sweatshop labour on the other hand I'm very confident that boycotts don't actually work so even if I stopped buying things unless I was certain I knew they were sourced from workers paying minimum wage it wouldn't matter.

But whats more, really almost everything you use and the entertainment you enjoy can be attributed to the innovations brought on by a capitalist society.

It's almost like saying you despise technology and want it's utter overthrow yet live in a house with electricity and running water.

I despise exploitation of the environment and people that live in huts without electricity or running water.
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Benxboro
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Postby Benxboro » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:02 pm

Bogdanov Vishniac wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Yes, because non-capitalists can't invent things. It's not like vaccines are almost never developed in the private sector anymore, for example. It's not like some of the smartest men who've ever lived (Einstein, Hawking) were/are socialists. Of course not. Greed is the only motivator a man has ever known, and I know this, because I don't do anything unless I'm gonna get rich from it.


This sort of thing is particularly ironic when you consider that the modern scientific community is probably the largest and most complex example of a community structured around cooperative enterprise, altruism and conscious de-coupling from the capitalist mode of thought on the planet.

But that research money tho
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Jochistan wrote:Do Communists and Marxists in general ever have problems with buying a book that looks cool, getting a computer, going to see the new star wars, or buying things and enjoying the products they buy in general?

Contributing to a capitalist society while holding very strong views against it?

This is such an extremely overdone and baseless argument I'm embarrassed that you've used it. There's almost no way to escape capital and the State in a statist, capitalist society. The very idea of the proletariat is based on our position in capitalism.

So you go along to get along...
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:04 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Jochistan wrote:But whats more, really almost everything you use and the entertainment you enjoy can be attributed to the innovations brought on by a capitalist society.

Yes, because non-capitalists can't invent things. It's not like vaccines are almost never developed in the private sector anymore, for example. It's not like some of the smartest men who've ever lived (Einstein, Hawking) were/are socialists. Of course not. Greed is the only motivator a man has ever known, and I know this, because I don't do anything unless I'm gonna get rich from it.
Jochistan wrote:It's almost like saying you despise technology and want it's utter overthrow yet live in a house with electricity and running water.

No, it's not like that at all.

It's humorous to acknowledge that the discoveries of Einstein and Hawking would likely never come to light without the achievements of a capitalist (Thomas Edison).
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Zoice
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Founded: Oct 30, 2015
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Postby Zoice » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:05 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Yes, because non-capitalists can't invent things. It's not like vaccines are almost never developed in the private sector anymore, for example. It's not like some of the smartest men who've ever lived (Einstein, Hawking) were/are socialists. Of course not. Greed is the only motivator a man has ever known, and I know this, because I don't do anything unless I'm gonna get rich from it.

No, it's not like that at all.

It's humorous to acknowledge that the discoveries of Einstein and Hawking would likely never come to light without the achievements of a capitalist (Thomas Edison).

But then after laughing you realize the joke doesn't work, because it isn't true?
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Benxboro
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Founded: Oct 31, 2014
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Postby Benxboro » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:06 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Yes, because non-capitalists can't invent things. It's not like vaccines are almost never developed in the private sector anymore, for example. It's not like some of the smartest men who've ever lived (Einstein, Hawking) were/are socialists. Of course not. Greed is the only motivator a man has ever known, and I know this, because I don't do anything unless I'm gonna get rich from it.

No, it's not like that at all.

It's humorous to acknowledge that the discoveries of Einstein and Hawking would likely never come to light without the achievements of a capitalist (Thomas Edison).

That's a joke?
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:08 pm

Zoice wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:It's humorous to acknowledge that the discoveries of Einstein and Hawking would likely never come to light without the achievements of a capitalist (Thomas Edison).

But then after laughing you realize the joke doesn't work, because it isn't true?

So are you denying that, without Thomas Edison, Einstein and Hawking still would have been able to make their discoveries?
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Zoice
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Postby Zoice » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:09 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Zoice wrote:But then after laughing you realize the joke doesn't work, because it isn't true?

So are you denying that, without Thomas Edison, Einstein and Hawking still would have been able to make their discoveries?

Yes?

He was just a good businessman, it's not as if he discovered anything. If anything he held back advancement with his anti-AC campaign (because he cared about profit not science).
Last edited by Zoice on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
♂♀Copy and Paste this in your sig if you're ignorant about human sexuality and want to let everyone know. ♂♀
Or if you're an asshole that goes out of your way to bully minorities and call them words with the strict intent of upsetting a demographic that is already at a huge risk of suicide, or being murdered for who they are. :)

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